Genesis’ Young Earth, Stars, Michael J. Fox and the DeLorean…“All Aboard!”

Hey there! Sorry to possibly divert the current topic. I've been reading this thread since it's inception and I have a question which seems to have been overlooked. The bit about the dinosaur footprints in the same rockbed as human footprints. This seems like a bit of a problem evolutionarily (is that even a word?) if it's the real-deal. Anyways, just an observation. Really good debate so far guys!!

reply to post by Torem3ff3ct

This seems like a bit of a problem evolutionarily (is that even a word?) if it's the real-deal. Anyways, just an observation.

It was a hoax, if memory serves. I know that there was a several threads about it in the past.

Originally posted by Torem3ff3ct
Hey there! Sorry to possibly divert the current topic. I've been reading this thread since it's inception and I have a question which seems to have been overlooked. The bit about the dinosaur footprints in the same rockbed as human footprints. This seems like a bit of a problem evolutionarily (is that even a word?) if it's the real-deal. Anyways, just an observation. Really good debate so far guys!!

Definitely a great debate...

I dunno? OT thinks the evidence I presented was stellar!

Hoax?



I hope not?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

Hoax?

I hope not?

OT

This is why I can't respect your opinions. They are hope based - or rather faith based.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Hoax?

I hope not?

OT

This is why I can't respect your opinions. They are hope based - or rather faith based.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Welfhard]

OK...

please tell me what DO YOU respect?

OT

Originally posted by Torem3ff3ct
The bit about the dinosaur footprints in the same rockbed as human footprints.

Alright skeptic, what gives with Torem3ff3ct's point, where there construction guys out there, in the middleof the night, in the middle of no where, laying concrete, then....walking on it, one way...and grabbed some snow boots, walking on the other way...and praying it DRIED REAL fast?

Come one!!!!!!

OT

Where's NoturTypical, when you need him?

Or my boys, noobfun and nj2day....???

Oh well, OT's hungry AGAIN, I know......

See you'll in a a while....


Any DINO experts out there?

Or maybe some bigfoot FOOTPRINT/CASTING dudes?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

OK...

please tell me what DO YOU respect?

OT

An unwavering dedication to the facts and evidence - like Johannes Kepler's perseverance in the face of disheartening discoveries and exile.



If in the end of the day, your faith is more important to you than your search for truth, then you are already lost in my eyes... lost and cannot be found.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

It just did, is not scientific nor an acceptable answer Welfhard, you know better then that.

You're asking a question that is difficult to answer. "How" did it happen, as I explained - the population diverged as one migrated away, while the rest remained - seems an inadequate answer for you. You may as well ask "Why rain?"

.... You need to be clear.

You've heard monkey see monkey do, yes? You've also heard what happens when you "assume" (ass-u-me)? To know what is inadequate for me, you need but ask, as I haven't disagreed with you, but to play the "devils" advocate. A child could tell me why it rains and you are not a child. It is your prescribed pattern of thought that clouds who I am, for I have not given you even one Ontological description, but rather the Etymology of the names, which in form, are actions and provable before your eyes. I need not divert you to another web page to show you the truth, as you are the truth, invisible beings are not. I have said you are the proof regardless of which ladder you climbed up or down from. You are not metaphysical, you are solid living evidence. You may refute yourself, but I will not. That being said, I move on.


Does not a population diverge when need of divergence is warranted because of scarcity of resource? If you are living in a paradise you don't get up and leave for no reason, you get up and leave when there is no more to eat. Usually, those with you or around you also seeing that there is no more to eat will follow being hungry or go off in search of food themselves, hunting and gathering what they find, yet men formed agriculture and all it's processes. Think of the evolution in mind alone that had to of occurred in order for agriculture and it's processes to have risen and the acute observation it would of required for comprehension.

I don't expect you to know exactly what happened, only to weigh the changes that had to occur with intelligence, which you have no lack of and not to answer with "it just did". As I said, you are better then that and worth much more then two sparrows who "just find" seed and eat or three monkey's who "see, hear, and do" no evil.

Genetic isolation is a complicated thing. Horses and donkeys can reproduce albeit with infertile offspring when they live side by side one an other and yet lions and tigers which live on separate continents can produce viable offspring that is fertile. Talk about a head scratcher - it's obviously more complicated than geographic isolation.

YES, the Lyger....God love Napoleon, you have seen this cat no doubt...beautiful and twice the size of either parent. They are a form of "abrupt displacement" and that is the only reason they are on different land masses. All myths have their birth from facts and are the bastards of education...remember that, it might come in handy someday.

How many times in your life have you caught the common cold? If it weren't for speciation the answer to that questions would only be 1 time or less.

How many other Mikes exist that are you? Would you say 1, being you, or less? Now if a cold mutates every time, it is not staying the same. Though we have grouped the individual virus as a cold, it is indeed not a "cold" but a strain of the virus that we have associated with "the common cold" being not common at all, but rather completely individual. We call out to many mikes and many may turn their head, but only one of those will know the voice who is calling to him, recognize it and respond personally, in the same way a cold will affect the host who has it differently. The only evolution to have taken place is it's recognition, since no two are the same, even in twins. We are scanning for a pattern, having recognized patterns before, since pattern is what we base "our church" on, in the image of that before, thus providing a step in the evolution of the mind upon recognition of the prior. The individual is lost, yet the pattern remains so that we may recognize it, even in different form, for without pattern, there is chaos and the void which we are hovering over and above right before we say...."Let there be light".

I expect that perfectly valid example will no suffice for you so I'll encourage you to look at this which I gave OT earlier.
www.nmsr.org...

Nope great example, and I will look over the example you have left. Thank you.

I know of a species of mozzy that can only live in London's underground and is completely genetically incompatible with the above ground species. That had to adapt from the above ground species obviously but the fact that they are unable to breed defines a speciation event.

My only question from above is at what time were the two mozzy species together before the split or is that known?

Peace

reply to post by Welfhard


Thx, I'll watch um...

OT

For Welfhard

Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For an event is to the sons of man, and an event is to the beasts, even one event is to them; as the death of this, so is the death of that; and one spirit is to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 The whole are going unto one place, the whole have been from the dust, and the whole are turning back unto the dust.

I do love bananas, never lost that trait, only now I know they are good for potassium, when I really never needed to know that....I already liked them.



Peace

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

A child could tell me why it rains and you are not a child.

A child may be able to tell you 'how' it rains, but not 'why'. The answer to 'why' is that it just does. For there to be a 'why', there needs to be an agenda, and clouds have no agenda. There for "Why rain?" has no answer.

Does not a population diverge when need of divergence is warranted because of scarcity of resource?

There are many things that will cause a divergence - scarcity of resources is only one among a countless many.

If you are living in a paradise you don't get up and leave for no reason, you get up and leave when there is no more to eat.

Firstly, our ancestors never lived in a so-called "Paradise." And secondly, I've already pointed out the predators in the long grass - perhaps it was a predation pressure.

yet men formed agriculture and all it's processes. Think of the evolution in mind alone that had to of occurred in order for agriculture and it's processes to have risen and the acute observation it would of required for comprehension.

Agriculture is only about 10 thousand years old and by that time, we had spread throughout the world a little after out cousins, the Neanderthals.

YES, the Lyger.

Lets not forget the Tyon. Speciation is a very peculiar thing. Sometimes you get banding aswell. Geckos that may live around the base of a mountain and the population is spread a great distance. Due to geographical limitations one gecko will only get the chance to mate with a similar, or a gecko amongst it's neighbours. The population continues to expand until it stretches all the way around the mountain but the geckos that encounter each cannot breed because they are so genetically different and the two are genetically isolated from one another. Speciation is a very complex thing.

How many other Mikes exist that are you? Would you say 1, being you, or less? Now if a cold mutates every time, it is not staying the same. Though we have grouped the individual virus as a cold, it is indeed not a "cold" but a strain of .............

blah blah blah blah blah.

It doesn't matter what you say here there is a simple fact of the matter. A virus gets into the system and after a while the system reacts to it and manages to fight it and pretty much every offspring it produces because they are all exactly the same featuring the same genetic code. But alas, in one reproduction the code mutated because ribosomes are not actually that efficient at replicating DNA. The new viruses that are produced feature a different code and as such are physically distinct from the ones that where present previously. Now they can work undetected again because the body doesn't recognise them and what's more this that they can spread to other hosts. This is evolution in action in viruses. If it weren't for this, there would be no common cold, period.

My only question from above is at what time were the two mozzy species together before the split or is that known?

I don't know off hand, but it doesn't matter. One species producing two new populations that cannot breed is a form of speciation.

[edit on 30-7-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by Welfhard
reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

 

A child may be able to tell you 'how' it rains, but not 'why'. The answer to 'why' is that it just does. For there to be a 'why', there needs to be an agenda, and clouds have no agenda. There for "Why rain?" has no answer.

No actually a child could NOT tell me how it rains. That would take schooling. Why do you drink water? Now again, why does it rain?

There are many things that will cause a divergence - scarcity of resources is only one among a countless many.

That may be true for humans who delight in pleasure or the lack of it, not for animals. They seek shelter, food, and protection...Period

Firstly, our ancestors never lived in a so-called "Paradise." And secondly, I've already pointed out the predators in the long grass - perhaps it was a predation pressure.

Paradise means park as in "wild". From the point where divergence would happen, there is not enough of a difference for one to be subject to predator and not the other. I told you I didn't expect you to know, and you don't. It's ok, only "Perhaps" you should re-read these statements of yours.

"I'm sick and tired of people talking about freak accidents and chance when it comes to evolution. There is nothing random about evolution." and
"In a universe ruled by cause and effect, everything is predetermined." - Welfhard

Agriculture is only about 10 thousand years old and by that time, we had spread throughout the world a little after out cousins, the Neanderthals.

Neanderthals migrated nowhere but the Neandar Valley where the subjects bones were uncovered, hence Neanderthal. I asked you to consider the time span and observation required to be able to produce agriculture, not to give an answer from a text book to a question no one asked of you. However, if documented history only spans the last 5000 years, then how are you stating something undocumented as fact?

Speciation is a very complex thing.

Must be, glad to know you know that.

How many other Mikes exist that are you? Would you say 1, being you, or less? Now if a cold mutates every time, it is not staying the same. Though we have grouped the individual virus as a cold, it is indeed not a "cold" but a strain of .............

blah blah blah blah blah.

"The patronising isn't appreciated. We're adults." - Welfhard

I'd like to see you do things that are true. Start by fulfilling your words so that I may know, you are true, or I will know that you are truly a liar who can not sustain what he says.

Another way to say this is, "do unto others what you would have done to you"...true no matter who is saying it. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

Further more, Carl said what I said in my example to you..."recognize the pattern"?

I don't know off hand, but it doesn't matter. One species producing two new populations that cannot breed is a form of speciation.

I have to tell you that for someone who demands the truth from others, you leave a lot to guessing and things that don't matter for yourself.

When ever you go pointing that finger in the name of "truth" (a human construct), just remember four are pointing back at you. You are the only one you ever have to prove anything too, it's the reason you are here...(not the process).

reply to post by letthereaderunderstand

No actually a child could NOT tell me how it rains. That would take schooling. Why do you drink water? Now again, why does it rain?

Are children not schooled were you are from? Maybe a child could not tell you how, but it wouldn't be able to tell you why either - it happens is the best answer to why unless use the 'how' answer as a 'why'.

That may be true for humans who delight in pleasure or the lack of it, not for animals. They seek shelter, food, and protection...Period

Some animals do things for fun but that is irrelevant in the end. The point is that a wide spread population may break up as they are pressured to. If one group is situated between two lakes and the waters receed, the animals will follow the water that they are close to. This is a circumstantial answer. If there were a large group of early great apes sitting in a plane and some while wandering around may find a safer area and move in to it leaving other behind to put up with the predation.

These things "just happen." I can give suppositions all day and not know the answer, but what I do know is that it happened.

From the point where divergence would happen, there is not enough of a difference for one to be subject to predator and not the other.

Hmm. I don't recall that law being taught in Biology.

"I'm sick and tired of people talking about freak accidents and chance when it comes to evolution. There is nothing random about evolution." and
"In a universe ruled by cause and effect, everything is predetermined." - Welfhard

You can add this "Things happen... Sometimes daily."

Agriculture is only about 10 thousand years old and by that time, we had spread throughout the world a little after out cousins, the Neanderthals.

I ought correct myself here - 7 thousand years is more accurate, unless one is speaking of the invention of agriculture in other areas in which case it's even later.

Neanderthals migrated nowhere but the Neandar Valley where the subjects bones were uncovered, hence Neanderthal.

From central Africa before humans had a chance to - who knows what wild life they were chasing.

I asked you to consider the time span and observation required to be able to produce agriculture, not to give an answer from a text book to a question no one asked of you. However, if documented history only spans the last 5000 years, then how are you stating something undocumented as fact?

Writing and history began closer to 7 thousand years ago but however...
When an archaologists or paleontologist digs up a bone, he doesn't need written history to tell him that an animal was there at some stage. He or she can then do carbon dating on the bone to determine when the creature died so long as it is within 50,000 years (afterwhich carbon14 dating becomes useless. If it is after 50,000ys then they can use other dating methods like Argon-Argon dating.) If there is DNA to be recovered, it can help us to determine the species and thus where in what anthropological tree to place it.

How many other Mikes exist that are you? Would you say 1, being you, or less? Now if a cold mutates every time, it is not staying the same. Though we have grouped the individual virus as a cold, it is indeed not a "cold" but a strain of .............

blah blah blah blah blah.

"The patronising isn't appreciated. We're adults." - Welfhard

I'd like to see you do things that are true. Start by fulfilling your words so that I may know, you are true, or I will know that you are truly a liar who can not sustain what he says.

I also said I treat people as I see they ought be. Frankly you are sidestepping the specaition thing. These mutations over sucessive generations are defined as a for of speication - one type of speciation. But once again, if it weren't for this you'd only catch a cold once or less.

Another way to say this is, "do unto others what you would have done to you"...true no matter who is saying it. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth.

- Sun Tsu, 200BCE
No wait... He said "Do not do unto others as you would not have done unto you."
His version is better because what if the person saying the golden rule is a sadist or masochist???? Oh dear.

I have to tell you that for someone who demands the truth from others, you leave a lot to guessing and things that don't matter for yourself.

You ought consider yourself lucky because I found the information.

Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998:
"A new species of mosquito, isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens."
More info here.

There is also this, linked from the wikipedia page on speciation.

A little reseach of your own goes a long way, stranger...

When ever you go pointing that finger in the name of "truth" (a human construct), just remember four are pointing back at you. You are the only one you ever have to prove anything too, it's the reason you are here...(not the process).

"Good to know you know that."

[edit on 31-7-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by Welfhard


"An unwavering dedication to the facts and evidence - like Johannes Kepler's perseverance in the face of disheartening discoveries and exile. If in the end of the day, your faith is more important to you than your search for truth, then you are already lost in my eyes... lost and cannot be found." -Welfhard

I really respect what you say here. It means a lot. Anyone who casts off Truth in favor of Faith is truly lost.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by Welfhard

 

"An unwavering dedication to the facts and evidence - like Johannes Kepler's perseverance in the face of disheartening discoveries and exile. If in the end of the day, your faith is more important to you than your search for truth, then you are already lost in my eyes... lost and cannot be found." -Welfhard

I really respect what you say here. It means a lot. Anyone who casts off Truth in favor of Faith is truly lost.

TB, yo, what's up?

Truth?

Powerful word…you think the bible is not a source, I do…that’s the difference, I made a quality decision to listen and heed it, you didn’t…that’s it. Please see these verses on truth, you should know what/who you are rejecting…

More here: eliyah.com...

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all wickedness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Romans 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. .

Romans 2:2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

Romans 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth , but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Romans 9:1 I say the truth in the Messiah, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit,

Romans 15:8 Now I say that the Messiah was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of , to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

1Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth .

1Corinthians 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth ;

1Corinthians 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship Elohim, and report that Elohim is in you of a truth .

2Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of Elohim.

2Corinthians 6:7 By the word of truth , by the power of Elohim, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,

2Corinthians 7:14 For if I have boasted any thing to him of you, I am not ashamed; but as we spake all things to you in truth , even so our boasting, which I made before Titus, is found a truth.

2Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth , but for the truth.

Galations 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth , before whose eyes the Messiah hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galations 4:16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth ?

Galations 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth ?

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth , the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


Ephesians 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in God

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of Elohim.


John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth .

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by the Messiah.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth .
John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth , and the truth shall make you free.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth , because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth , ye believe me not.
John 14:6 saith unto him, I am the way, the truth , and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth ; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth , which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth , is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truthheareth my voice.
= = = = =

And please no circular reasoning BS, ok?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Every holy book written says that it is truth and that all the others are false, they can't all be right but they can all be wrong.

What's more is that just because a source says it's trust worthy doesn't make it so. Fox news says "Your faith and balanced news" yet that is no reason to believe that they haven't skewed the facts.

You have admitted to bias effectively meaning that your opinion of what is truth is based more on your own desires than any real unbiased investigation.

How can a book that contains many myths passed off as facts be considered anything at all truthful? Creation, the flood & Noah, King Solomon, Moses & Pharaoh (and quite possibly Christos Yeshua) to name a few baseless myths.

And please no circular reasoning BS, ok?

A highly ironic quote from OT, there.

[edit on 3-8-2009 by Welfhard]

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by Welfhard

 

"An unwavering dedication to the facts and evidence - like Johannes Kepler's perseverance in the face of disheartening discoveries and exile. If in the end of the day, your faith is more important to you than your search for truth, then you are already lost in my eyes... lost and cannot be found." -Welfhard

I really respect what you say here. It means a lot. Anyone who casts off Truth in favor of Faith is truly lost.

TB, why soooooo silent on the TRUTH scriptures friend?

OT

reply to post by OldThinker

TB, why soooooo silent on the TRUTH scriptures friend?

OT

Does he need to say anything? The so-called "TRUTH" scriptures are not self evident any more than any other written work of man. To call them truth is a very arrogant and naive thing do.

reply to post by Welfhard



my "arrogance" or naivite' has nothing to do with this...

It's a choice...personal...accountable...OT is out of it!