Socialism, communism and capitalism are all oppressive ideologies.

Socialism- workers rule everything, you are all equally poor, you get what you want. In socialism however there would be no freedom because everything would be owned by the state.

Under communism- everything is owned by everyone. You have no reason to produce any more stuff because you're done working. You become lazy, and, a bunch of slobs.

Under capitalism- you must work. Work is your freedom. You produce stuff with working.

None of the ideologies takes into account all of the workers needs, nor, that of the employers.

They're all oppressive ideologies.

When will people recognize this?

You should do more research on socialism/communism/capitalism.

I think you're misinterpreting all of them.

Wage Labor and Capital is a good book that critiques capitalism. I found it very enjoyable. It also made me want to be a capitalist, for the simple reason that it works so darn well. It's not necessarily a good thing for the laborers, but it's really nice for the capital owners

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Yes, you need to research these ideologies further.

Your argument against Capitalism is that you must work? You must work in every ideology. The difference between them is who gets the fruit of the labor.

reply to post by Xtinguish


No. I've researched them well enough.

Under capitalism work is your reward.

All of these ideologies are just about work and who produces work.

None of them are about progressing the human race, etc.

Capitalism- you're forced to work all the time. There is no other solution to things. You must work.

Socialism- equality, but you have nothing

Communism- everyone has everything, virtually impossible.

Capitalism is a phony ideology because no one follows rules of competition, and, everyone has their own goals in mind, as opposed to trying to progress things in the future.

I know what I'm talking about.

They're all just about work.

Is that all you people think about?

It's just about work and material stuff. You work and you get cool stuff. Okay. Exciting. How about we expand on that a bit? That's the whole problem. In every ideology all it's just about working. It never takes in every factor in account.

Capitalism=slavery, your reward is what you get
Socialism=more slavery
Communism=slavery, and, you don't have anything of your own.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by Frankidealist35]

reply to post by Kaytagg


Yeah but all you do under capitalism is just work all the time. There is no mention of the value of the human life, or, how employers should treat their employees in major pieces regarding capitalism. They just essentially say that workers are assets. I think that's a horrible view of the world. There are essentially flaws in all of these ideologies. Socialism is essentially the same as capitalism... it's a higher stage as to the intermediary to communism... but everything would be controlled by the workers. There would be no organization, no means, of, deciding who does what. And, it's like with communism... you'd not own anything.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


I'm not sure what your logic is. Are people not to work? Maybe only some will work? Who decides who works and who doesn't? If no one is to work who produces the food? Who builds houses? Who runs the utility companies? Is everyone to simply supply their own food for their families? Isn't that day to day work? Are we to go back into the dark ages? How does mankind excel without a system of free ideas which capitalism is? How can any system be successful without human effort?

Sounds to me your problem is with work itself.

Look bottom line is you cannot have freedom without a free market or capitalism. You cannot have a free market or capitalism without freedom. You cannot separate the two.

There is a reason for it!

The free market allows people to be the best they can be. It allows all to work hard and excel. It allows for the flow of ideas. It's why we have the largest technological advancements in the last 50 years. Because people can invent and then profit (which is the motive) on a free market. Is it perfect? No. Does it work? Yes.

I'm not sure where your going with the 'no work' thing.

reply to post by Xtinguish


I'm not saying we should all just be lazy bums. I know what these ideologies try to set out to accomplish. Let me go on with my main point though.

Capitalism is essentially slavery because you're giving yourself up to a master. You can do your own work as you please. But the capitalist society is one that is entirely based on work all the time. It's a society based on work and money. We need our services, and, we need stuff, so we need to work. But capitalism keeps us essentially in a set frame of mind- where- we're like stuck- only in the present- and it doesn't give us any real framework for how we should deal with the future. All this other stuff that people talk about- like how the markets should be like- isn't capitalism.

I'll tell you my ideal world and why I think these are oppressive. A market should essentially be a place which fosters new ideas. We don't have that in the capitalist society because everyone steals stuff from everyone else. Innovations often get squashed by smaller markets. I would rather have an ideal market which combines the best of all worlds.

The workers would be allowed to contribute their ideas into the decision making process which creates the process, where the employers would care for the employees, and, where, it wouldn't just be about material things. You see, these ideologies fail because they don't talk about all society. Rather than covering everything- these ideologies only focus on what rights the companies have, or, the government has, or the employees have. They fail to cover these other things.

Under capitalism it's just about competition- but- not about anything more. It's not about what products are made, nothing about ingenuity is said in the original treatises of capitalism, that's all made up.

What we need is a creative, dynamic market, which can last, that isn't based on too much risk, and, where anyone can go in without having to go to a patent lawyer just to get a head start.

Is what I'm saying starting to make sense?

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

Yeah but all you do under capitalism is just work all the time. There is no mention of the value of the human life, or, how employers should treat their employees in major pieces regarding capitalism. They just essentially say that workers are assets. I think that's a horrible view of the world. There are essentially flaws in all of these ideologies. Socialism is essentially the same as capitalism... it's a higher stage as to the intermediary to communism... but everything would be controlled by the workers. There would be no organization, no means, of, deciding who does what. And, it's like with communism... you'd not own anything.

Humans don't have value, their labor has value. In capitalism, humans own their labor, and they sell it to whomever they want.

Capitalists (as opposed to the laborers(the ones who work)) purchase the labor, own the land, machines, resources, and finished product.

Capitalism works like this: A man walks into my kitchen. The man has nothing. I have flour, yeast, and an oven. I tell the man "Use my flower, yeast, and oven to cook a loaf of bread. In return, I'll give you 40% of the loaf back for yourself." That's capitalism.

In reality, the amount of "bread" you get for cooking the loaf is negotiated on by the capitalist and laborer.

The laborer is free to cook in someone elses kitchen if someone else is willing to give more of the bread back for his services. And the capitalist is free to fire/hire whomever he wants, for whatever reason he wants.

reply to post by Xtinguish


I don't think capitalism is working for the benefit of mankind. I think it's doing just the opposite. However, people seem to enjoy the "philosophy" of capitalism, and that's just fine with me. As long as I'm the capitalist, and not the laborer

Originally posted by Kaytagg
Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by Kaytagg

 

Humans don't have value, their labor has value. In capitalism, humans own their labor, and they sell it to whomever they want.

That's the whole thing. In capitalism essentially you forget humans. You forget people who make products. It's just about buying and selling stuff. Not too many people are occupied with thinking about the rest of the human race. They're just thinking about themselves, or, what DVD to buy. And what about the people that make those things? They take a lot of time around the factory, or, around whatever they're working at just working. They have hardly any time to themselves. A lot of this stuff could be automated and they could be doing other things. Capitalism gives no framework as to about how this should be done. Capitalism is an old ideology. It is old and oppressive.

Capitalists (as opposed to the laborers(the ones who work)) purchase the labor, own the land, machines, resources, and finished product.

That's under the false premise that no one else owns the land but people who buy it.

Capitalism works like this: A man walks into my kitchen. The man has nothing. I have flour, yeast, and an oven. I tell the man "Use my flower, yeast, and oven to cook a loaf of bread. In return, I'll give you 40% of the loaf back for yourself." That's capitalism.

No, that's not capitalism. That's your interpretation of it.

In reality, the amount of "bread" you get for cooking the loaf is negotiated on by the capitalist and laborer.

The laborer is free to cook in someone elses kitchen if someone else is willing to give more of the bread back for his services. And the capitalist is free to fire/hire whomever he wants, for whatever reason he wants.

Exactly. Capitalism is just about giving entrepreneurs more power over who controls what. It gives them essentially control of everything. It's therefore an oppressive ideology because the people who work under them have no input in what goes on- according to the capitalism theory- because the people in charge of making the product supposedly get to own everything about it and its contents, etc. This is the whole thing about what I'm saying. It's oppressive.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by Frankidealist35]

Is there an ideology that can be non-oppressive? Even in anarchy people who want to live by rules would be oppressed. Anything that influences society as a whole - is oppressive. I find gravity oppressive.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


No it's not starting to make sense.

You have it all backwards. Let me explain.

What we have NOW is not capitalism. We have been forced to swallow a debt based economy as capitalism. It isn't.

We have some capitalism with a mix of big government. That isn't true capitalism and a true free market. Capitalism has been under heavy attack by the government since 1913; the FED's creation. A central bank is not capitalism, in fact it's straight from the communist manifesto.

I'm not sure how you can have any type of market without competition. I'm surely interested if you had an idea of one in mind. The underlining key to a free market is a division of labor. The philosophical requirements for capitalism is the same as the philosophical requirements to recognize a right to life. It is simply people recognizing their world and wanting to improve their lives in it.

Let's say everyone believes this world is merely a test or preparation to a second world. Where would the motivation be for material improvement? It is only when the senses are made valid as the only legitimate basis of knowledge that people will turn their energy and attention to this world and their right to life here. This is also the foundation of science and technology. Without it science and technology cannot be pursued. I hope this somewhat explains how science, technology, and right to life are all firmly attached to capitalism. Simply rather it is production or competition firmly depends on the people's desire to improve themselves. You cannot separate it.

I think we can learn from a variety of ideologies and incorporate them in to each other in varying degrees.I would never like to live under a 100% capitalist system or a 100% socialist one.Capitalism has its faults just like socialism and communism does imo.

I think the problem here is that everyone acts as though maslow's heirarchy of needs does not exist. The state of a healthy human at rest (not having to work) is NOT laziness....its creativity. Its the 3rd and 4th steps of the hierarchy, that once food, security, and shelter are done being provided for, the human psyche naturally moves on to develop social relevance, and then moves on to develop self actualization. THIS is what socialism is proposed to cultivate.

Progress does NOT exist to produce profit, progress exists to produce free men, and the whole point of this freedom is so they may develop their humanity, a train of thought that does not exist in western society.

The problem in our society is that we must CONSTANTLY work, every day, 8 to 12 hours a day, to KEEP providing shelter and security, so we are kept ever at that level of human development. One of the whole tenets of our society is that a person who is not at work, or not consuming, is wasting time. Its become so bad to the degree that most people, when trying to do something as simple and essential to human development as meditation, suffer guilt from sitting in one place and not being stimulated, or making money.

You dont have to take my word for it, just look around at the results. Todays western society is almost completely lacking in humanity, wisdom, or spiritual development. The prime virtue upheld in our land is acquisition and consumption. There are few great repositories of wisdom or peace anymore, and most people into their old age are still awash in confusion and misunderstanding. Violence is rampant in the streets, and all our kids look up to those who are "hard" and "cold". The persuit of wisdom, or of any form of deep spirituality are scoffed at and ridiculed, and a life spent trying to learn more of humanity or understand more of the human condition is lamented as a life that would better be spent working in the corporate sector and following the great god of greed.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


Capitalists have control over stuff because capitalism involves ownership. The capitalist might own an oven, flour, and yeast. The laborer owns his labor. Both parties own something.

If the government would step in, increase minimum wage, ensure competition between businesses, regulate foul play or harmful behavior (like cornering the market. Dumping toxic waste in the drinking water. Etc.), capitalism would work reasonably well.

However, a certain Ronald Reagan (an actor unqualified to run a Pizza Hut, let alone America) and Margaret Thatcher thought "what a wonderful idea it would be to let business regulate itself and buy up public resources." So instead of a fair playing field, we have a corporate owned playing field, and we all are stuck playing by their rules, living in their waste, and nibbling at the crumbs that fall from their excesses.

The idea behind it is pretty simple: Successful business owners are smarter, better, more qualified to run the world than democratic processes would allow. Therefore, let business do whatever it wants. The free market will weed out the bad ideas, while allowing the successful ventures to grow. What you'll end up with is a better world than what voters would choose to have.

That ideology has turned into: Business owners are richer, more connected, and more influential than voters and even politicians. Therefore, business should leverage this power, by A) maximizing profits at any cost, regardless of who suffers. B) Eliminate competition entirely, or have faux competition (competition is a sin). C) Put in legislative or inherent stop-loss mechanisms, to ensure that no matter what, these corporate giants can't fail.

Related thread: Class Warfare

Originally posted by Solomons
I think we can learn from a variety of ideologies and incorporate them in to each other in varying degrees.I would never like to live under a 100% capitalist system or a 100% socialist one.Capitalism has its faults just like socialism and communism does imo.

The only problem I see with capitalism is that it takes a real effort to be perfect.

It requires peace and tranquility, respect of individual rights, limited government, economic and political freedom, personal self-esteem, and personal responsibility. When these things don't exist is when capitalism suffers.

reply to post by Frankidealist35

I recommend reading The Virtue of Selfishness and Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. After reading those two works, I wondered why I had ever bothered reading anything else. Even if you find that afterwords you still don't agree that Capitalism is the best possible system, it is important to know thy enemy.


TA

reply to post by Xtinguish


Well i agree with many aspects of capitalism,but i also lean on the socialism side when it comes to a National health service,police force,fire brigade etc but lets face it,as long as we have central banks and bankers in most of the industrial world we are in trouble no matter what.We need to get rid of them first and foremost.That would solve alot of the problems we sometimes associate with an ideology which are more often than not to do with manipulation by the banks and elites of the world and not so much about the ideology.Ayn rand is a terrible human being...but your right people should read it anyway its an interesting philosophy.

[edit on 18-7-2009 by Solomons]

Yes, its kind of funny to me that most americans, nationalistic as they are, support capitalism and democracy as the best systems thinking them their own, when in fact america has neither capitalism nor democracy. Our democracy has been completely derailed by the unrestrained "capitalism" of business lobbies and buying votes, at the same time that our "capitalism" has been completely derailed by price fixing and corporate socialism. I, as others here, support mixed capitalism and socialism, however corporate socialism is the worst sort of evil. As i pointed out before, socialism is supposed to exist to give people the freedom to pursue development of their humanity and spirituality, however, corporations have neither humanity nor spirituality, so the only thing gained by their "socialism" is pursuit of profit. This profit most often comes at the expense of the lowest denominator, the worker, who often does the lions share of the actual work.

I have never had a problem with capitalism, it makes up all work harder to drive ourselves to be better. Those who like the competitiveness thrive and if thats what they want then thats great for them. Where the problem is, is that it creates a society in which those that choose to work many hard hours see themselves on a pedestal to those who choose a more moderate lifestyle and thus create a rich/poor, upper/lower class complete with pompous behavior; and the poor act out more radically and bond together against the rich people. It's as if the ones who work a ton and have a nice car and nice house, a portfolio full of debt think they are more entitled and feel like more of a success and have to make sure everyone knows it.

Now i KNOW these are just generalities, but big picture that happens, because there are many people with money that are humble and contribute under the radar and see all as equals and vice versa.

Now the second problem with capitalism is the fact that like the original post mentioned that the capitalists dont play by the rules and it breeds corrupt practices. Well the simple way to alieviate that is to have a more honest judicial system that is actually in place to uphold laws and punish those who runs scams and have bad business practices or hide money, cook the books or what have you. A more honest judicial system comes by having a more honest executive and legislatitve system in place where "the good ol' boy" system isn't in effect or a business owner knows a judge and the judge lets his buddy off the hook. You get the idea.

It all comes down to just a more honest and accountable society as a whole; and showing respect for everyone despite what kind of lifestyle one chooses to live.