Socialism, communism and capitalism are all oppressive ideologies.

Is it just me, but i seem to hear alot of americans claim that socialism or essentialy communism, in its pureist form = lazy, what propaganda, look first of all have a clear definition of each political ideology, for instance you have the ignorant definition of communism as, dictatorships with every one holding out there hand as slaves to the unification, led by a few elitist corrupt leaders or the true definition as Communism is a social or economic organization that promotes the establishment of an egalitarian, classless, stateless society.

this debate is more then political ethos, its about human nature, and humans at this time are still selfish, sure many are awakening to the unification of humanity, but if you still got people murdering their brothers for trivial reasons ofcourse no political system will in essence entirely work.

at this time has capatilism been truley been the most efficient?, global financial crisis............ofcourse not, capatilism is a ponzi scheme that will always crash and cause a revolution, rich get richer poor get poorer

If capatilism is the answer then ask your self, what motivates you as a human being to love those closest too you? ofcourse its not money right!, so people can be motivated to be industrious with out the need for material compensation, the inclination to be selfish is the real enemy, fear, ignorance, elitism, secrecy they are the enemy

reply to post by average_expert


Capitalism did not cause the global financial crisis,capitalism has not existed for quite some time.Plus the financial crisis was intentional anyway....

Ok its not pure capatilism buts its as close enough to capatilsm, how much government intervetion was there in allowing these financial martkets too colapse, not much really, America has in neo liberal terms been the utopia of capatilism. There has never really been a pure economic ideology since 20th century on, all have a slight, mix, if its 80 - 90% it at least is an indicator. With the nature of man in its current state, motivation to make profit will always eventually collapse!!!!!!!!

I agree with you, but I don't know what the answer is. I know we need a new system. There is a link at the end of my signature file below. Maybe they have the answer...or at least in part. We really need to put our heads together.

I will definitley look at the link, this question always leeds back to human nature i see too possible outcomes, humanity to evolve and produce a system that enables this, or stick with old systems and just accept the collateral damage from that!, the reason i came to ATS was my interest in UFO and alien interaction, what ever alien models are........ that probably is the direction we should follow, you think its pure communism? or pure capatilism

I just read the Orwell book the road to wigan pier and also the lion and the unicorn essay and the title premise is basically the point being made. He is for socialism which surprised me until he changes the definition to being in favor of liberty and freedom, and against tyranny and economic injustice. I think that's all that really matters in forming a government.

Dear OP,

if capitalism is oppressive, please get rid of its products right now: Throw away all your clothes. Disconnect your Internet and Computer - trash both. Do not purchase any foods and drinks.

reply to post by Skyfloating


That is not what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about free enterprise. I'm not talking about the freedom of exchange. I think you misunderstand my post.

What I'm saying... is that like with me I am a true believer in the free market. I just don't think on the other hand- that- all of society should be based around it.

If you have a society based on any one ideological system- your society becomes completely oppressive.

Like it's with capitalism- it's a good system of exchange and good for the market... but if everything is based on being a slave... then what good is that?

Do you get my drift?

reply to post by John Matrix


It is my personal opinion that capitalism and the free market should only be applied to when talking about the market itself. Freedom is good. Okay. I can go with that.

The problem is when you start letting all of these business entrepeneurs take over every aspect of your life. You let them brainwash you. And all that jazz.

It's just as bad with that as it is with you letting the government and public education brainwash you.

I think though- that- what we need is for people to realize that these are just economic systems, and, that as a society we can pretty much interact with each other however we want to. I think the problem is that people attribute these ideologies to how they feel society should be.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


I had a professor with a great reply once:

A socialist is someone who believes the government should take care of them.A communist is someone who wishes they wouldn't.And a capitalist is someone who knows they cant.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


I disagree with your original post (didn't read the rest of the thread as it's late). I don't think that any of the 3 systems are inherently oppressive. All 3 can be made to work well given the right people in charge. I think what your seeing is more the oppressive nature of the governments who run all 3 systems.

Communism can be highly effective in small close-knit groups (small farming collectives have be a necessity at times where 1 bad crop could ruin you financially without the support of a larger group).

Socialism can be highly effective if you are dedicated to it, have a well thought out system and a very closed immigration policy.

Capitalism can be highly effective if you are committed to it, reward real innovation and don't fall into bail-out traps (rewarding unfit financial structures by keeping them on life support).

Bad government can oppress you under any economic system though, so in a sense you are right.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
Socialism- workers rule everything, you are all equally poor, you get what you want. In socialism however there would be no freedom because everything would be owned by the state.

Under communism- everything is owned by everyone. You have no reason to produce any more stuff because you're done working. You become lazy, and, a bunch of slobs.

Under capitalism- you must work. Work is your freedom. You produce stuff with working.

None of the ideologies takes into account all of the workers needs, nor, that of the employers.

They're all oppressive ideologies.

When will people recognize this?

Oh good grief. As a communist I'm going to chime in. Socialism is the transition phase from one government to a communist government. There's a saying in communism: each according to his needs, each according to his ability.

You're spreading a myth. In communism everyone isn't treated equal. Everyone is given the same opportunities. It's up to you to take those opportunities and use them. Nobody can force you to go after a job or a promotion. But you are given the same opportunity whether you're the Queen of England or the poorest person in the country. If you have all the requirements you deserve a shot. What's this # about not producing? You produce for still for the good of the people and the community. You work together as a team. If someone needs a new house people who want to help build it will build it. When will you realize you don't know # about communism or socialism?

Originally posted by Solomons
reply to post by average_expert

 

Capitalism did not cause the global financial crisis,capitalism has not existed for quite some time.Plus the financial crisis was intentional anyway....

If people of today read Adam Smith he'd be called a commie.

Originally posted by John Matrix
I agree with you, but I don't know what the answer is. I know we need a new system. There is a link at the end of my signature file below. Maybe they have the answer...or at least in part. We really need to put our heads together.

I can't stand when people think we need some new system. It's like with this health care deal going on now with the Congress and Senate. There are plenty of examples out there of great health care programs in other countries we can use examples by. Same thing here. Of course as a communist I believe communism done correctly is the best way.

Originally posted by dragonridr
reply to post by Frankidealist35

 

I had a professor with a great reply once:

A socialist is someone who believes the government should take care of them.A communist is someone who wishes they wouldn't.And a capitalist is someone who knows they cant.

Sorry but that professor is full of # where communism is concerned.

Originally posted by azazel420
reply to post by Frankidealist35

 

I disagree with your original post (didn't read the rest of the thread as it's late). I don't think that any of the 3 systems are inherently oppressive. All 3 can be made to work well given the right people in charge. I think what your seeing is more the oppressive nature of the governments who run all 3 systems.

Communism can be highly effective in small close-knit groups (small farming collectives have be a necessity at times where 1 bad crop could ruin you financially without the support of a larger group).

Socialism can be highly effective if you are dedicated to it, have a well thought out system and a very closed immigration policy.

Capitalism can be highly effective if you are committed to it, reward real innovation and don't fall into bail-out traps (rewarding unfit financial structures by keeping them on life support).

Bad government can oppress you under any economic system though, so in a sense you are right.

I saw a great news report not too long ago (maybe a year or so) of a town in China with a small population that was doing Maoism. It seemed to work quite well for them. One person was saying she wanted to join the community but I think something with their moving rules in China kept her from doing so (so not the town itself fault I don't think). Democratic Socialism has worked for a lot of Scandinavian countries. Personally I would say Sweden is a Democratic Socialist state but that's just me. They might not consider themselves that.

Individualist anarchism. Thats the way to go.

Originally posted by LittlePinky82

Oh good grief. As a communist I'm going to chime in. Socialism is the transition phase from one government to a communist government. There's a saying in communism: each according to his needs, each according to his ability.

Well I guess I can go with that except that there are a lot of types of socialism.

Me?

In an ideal world, and to be honest for quite some time I was a passionate beleiver in Anarchy.
Unfortunately there is only one thing that would spoil it.
Men.
And as such it is merely a utopian pipe dream, just like Communism and Socialism.
There will always be an element within society who seek to exploit and control the rest.
They are the cold facts of life.

reply to post by Frankidealist35


From a certain point of view you are correct.

OK the bottom line is that a society driven by the bottom line ie profit is doomed to failure. It can only lead to manipulation of the masses, look at time square!

The way i see it is we need a new ideology not driven by profit but rather driven by human 'progression'. this basically means that any ideas or contributions that facilitate human progression should be encouraged, and anything that inhibits human progression discouraged.

Laws may well need to be changed thats ok.

The problem is that it is wrong that i might only receive 1% of the fruits of my labor becasue the company i work for wants to make another $1 billion dollars in profit. Its rediculous. Workers should own at least 10% of a company. This not only gives them an active interest in the company but encourages loyalty and a sense of contribution.

Companies driven by profit will nearly always hurt, manipulate and abuse others in the quest for more profit.

Society's goals need to be redifined to allow the streamlining of human progression. This is the be all and end all, progress or die trying.

In fact I am in the process of writing a book outlining all of this so please u2u me if you feel you can contribute to it. It's called

Tweeking Capitalism and mending the Machine
- A new way of thinking-

and will concentrate on helping to build a new political template for the generations to come, based on progression!