"Evidence" from the birth certificate conspiracy, my analysis

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posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:02 PM
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I’ve done my “three case analysis” of this entire birth certificate fiasco. If any of the birthers feel I missed out anything in my OP please post the evidence, constitutional or otherwise, then I will like wise reply my findings.

If any of those individuals behind the birth certificate conspiracy are serious about the matter of the president being ineligible, meaning this isn’t some joke to you, I strongly recommend you read the OP and join in the thread.

Case one: constitutional “evidence”

Lie: Obama has dual citizenship therefore could not be eligible for the presidency.

Truth: While it is true Obama had attained Kenyan citizenship in conjunction to his US citizenship at birth, his citizenship expired by the time he was 21 years of age. As US laws did not recognize Kenyan laws at the time in addition to his dual citizenship this became further irrelevant. As Kenya also didn’t recognize dual citizenship for adults this further became more so irrelevant as Obama did not give up his natural American born citizenship at 21 and in turn lost any form of Kenyan citizenship:
kenya.rcbowen.com...

Lie: Obama gained Indonesian citizenship as a child making him ineligible.

truth: Although Obamas mother did marry Lolo Soetoro the laws in Indonesia at the time were different from those in the US. The laws during the time were strict to foreigners entering the country, in particular those from western nations. Despite the marriage of Obamas mother and Lolo Soetoro the same laws applied to Obama as did any other foreigner when it came to citizenship. Under Indonesian law Obama would have had to be less than 5 years of age to have automatically gained citizenship in Indonesia or would have had to reside in Indonesia for longer than 5 years. As Obama only came to Indonesia at the age of 6years and left at the age of 10years he could not apply for citizenship there. In addition Obama would have had to give up his natural born US citizenship to have gained citizenship in Indonesia at the time which no evidence has indicated such. Although that in it self would have been irrelevant as the US does not end the natural born citizenship for those abroad under 18years.

Citizenship laws 1958
www.expat.or.id...

Lie: Lolo Soetoro adopted young Obama therefore he lost his citizenship.

Truth: The strict Indonesian laws at the time made it so that a child being adopted by an Indonesian citizen would have to attain citizenship he or herself. As I have shown in the laws of Indonesia above Obama could not have attained citizenship at the time. Even if hypothetically Obama was adopted he still would not have lost his natural born US status as the laws for natural born children clearly indicate they could not have lose citizenship. In addition no evidence as of yet has been provided to show Obama was adopted by Lolo Soetoro.

Lie: Obama attended public school in Indonesia, there for he must have been a citizen.

Truth: As shown above Obama could not have attained Indonesian citizenship under any circumstance. One can “speculate” why he then managed to attend public school however it wouldn’t be unbelievable to assume Lolo Soetoro lied on the schools application to get Obama in. One can speculate “all kinds of things”, but the laws above were solid at the time given Indonesia’s iron grip during the 50s and 60s, in particular in the case of the law over foreigners and mixed marriages including mixed religious.

Lie: Obama must have had Indonesian citizenship when he travelled to Pakistan in 1981 as Pakistan was closed off to westerners.

Truth There was no travel ban to Pakistan in 1981.
dosfan.lib.uic.edu...

One can “speculate” all kinds of stories regarding his travels to Pakistan during that time but there were no travel bans at the time. He could not have attained Indonesian citizenship in the past in any case and he could have by all means travelled to Pakistan on his American passport.

Case two: The birth certificate

Lie:The short form birth certificate given by the Obama campaign was not verified as legit by any officials of the sort.

Truth: The birth certificate presented by the Obama campaign was verified multiple times by the Hawaii state health department:


To verify we did indeed have the correct document, we contacted the Hawaii Department of Health, which maintains such records.
"It's a valid Hawaii state birth certificate," spokesman Janice Okubo said June 13, 2008.

www.politifact.com...


Fukino yesterday issued a statement saying that she and the registrar of vital statistics personally inspected Obama's birth certificate and found it to be valid.

www.starbulletin.com...

It should be noted under Hawaii law the short form birth certificate (which by the way the vast majority of Americans do use to get their drivers licence) is the legal certification of birth, that is whats displayed on the short form must be exactly what it displays on the long form excluding the extended personal information regarding birth.

Lie: His birth certificate didn’t have a raised seal.

Truth:Common sense would take over when somebody posts an image online, what features may be hidden. In any case at the bottom there clearly presents a seal and the signature of director for the health department of Hawaii, Alvin T. Onaka.

www.factcheck.org...
www.factcheck.org...

Case three: the supposed “solid evidence”

Lie: Obama has not proven sufficient evidence of his natural born citizenship to be eligible for the presidency under the constitution.

Truth: If anything Obama has proven more about his natural born citizenship than most other presidents in the past, in fact the majority of presidents have not had to provide their long form birth certificate prior or following their presidency.

In reference to the constitution it clearly does not state that the individual of interest has to show their extended for of birth certificate (long form) neither does it state the individual has to satisfy the entire population of these United states (if it did we would never get to electing a president).

The constitution clearly states:
According to the court, the Constitution vests Congress -- no individual voters, or even opposing candidates -- with the final authority re: the qualifications of the Presidency.:

Article II prescribes that each state shall appoint, in the manner directed by the state’s legislature, the number of presidential electors to which it is constitutionally entitled. The Twelfth Amendment prescribes the manner in which the electors appointed by the states shall in turn elect the president:


“[t]he electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President . . . and they shall . . . transmit [their votes] sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate; — The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted.”

www.law.cornell.edu...

Congress did confirm so along with the electoral college:
drbobbiannewhite.890m.com...

In addition the state of Hawaii further confirms Obamas eligibility:
www.kxma.com...

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]




posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:06 PM
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Case three continued.

Lie: Mr and Mrs Obama could have gotten a birth certificate for Obama even if he was foreign born.

Truth: The law refered here did not exist till 1982 so in turn it doesnt apply to Obama as he was born over 20years prior to that. In addition According to UCLA Law Professor Eugene Volokh, in the hypothetical scenario that Obama was born outside the U.S., he would not be a natural-born citizen since the then-applicable law would have required Obama's mother to have been in the U.S. at least "five years after the age of 14", but Ann Dunham was three months shy of her 19th birthday when Obama was born.
archives.chicagotribune.com...

Lie: This guy Jay McKinnon admitted to doing the forgery for Obama, this proves him to be ineligible for the presidency.

Truth: Firstly who is Jay McKinnon? His a self described department of homeland security trained document specialist. Do his revelation show proof that Obamas BC was faked, no, and individual who simply claims to be involved in the supposed faking of Obamas birth certificate doesn’t offer much more proof than “talk”. In addition Jay McKinnon never directly claimed in forging Obamas birth certificate, so this further brings any relevant evidence to the matter. At the end of the day its another individual claiming involvement without any proof what so ever. If it is so easy for a birther to take this individual for his word but ignore the evidence displayed above, it just shows extreme biasness in the matter

Lie: Experts have brought in enough questions surrounding Obamas birth certificate for him not to be eligible for the presidency.

Truth: Lets see who some of these “experts” are; Only one of the experts that supported some of the birth certificate lawsuits was an individual by the name of “Dr Ron Polark”, although it should be noted this individual is yet to present his credentials. The other two “experts” wanted to remain anonymous and have still not given their credentials, excepting for their “concerned conservatives” credentials I suppose. It should be noted these individuals are heavy contributors to rightwing websites that hold numerous other conspiracies about liberals in general. I would rather trust the word of mouth from a fox at the scene of am empty hen house that these individuals and their “findings” about Obamas citizenship.

Lie: Because Obamas fathers race is labelled “African”, as that term was never used by the government during that time this makes the birth certificate a forgery.

Truth: This doesn’t prove the birth certificate to be a fake. Although the US government did have an official classification of races at the time, Obama snr did not fall under these classifications necessarily as he was not a US citizen and in such his birth was not recorded with an official race. Because of this Obama snr or Mrs Obama/Dunham probably had the choice of naming the ethnic identity of the father. At the end of the day the individuals who cited this as the factor for the BC being fake are not birth certificate experts and have not shown their true identities and credentials and the evidence to back it up. In addition this it still doesn’t in anyway provide evident that Barack Obama was born off US soil.
There are numerous other individuals claiming to be experts however they have not proven sufficiently as of yet that Obamas birth certificate is a fake.

The analysis from the blogger “Techdude” and Polark are misleading at best. Heres the supposed “forgery exposed” analysis from Polark :
www.freerepublic.com...

Now heres an analysis of somebody with real credentials not afraid to reveal himself and counter the phony analysis of the birth certificate:
Dr. Neal Krawetz (real name)

www.hackerfactor.com.../archives/235-Bad-Science-How-Not-To-Do-Image-Analysis-Part-II.html

Here are his credentials by the way:
hackerfactor.com...

Lie: The evidence presented by the lawsuits were not even fairly looked at.

Truth: There are many here who would argue that these lawsuits were not looked at in a fair manner. The truth of the matter is that the evidence cited in all of these lawsuits thus far lacked any standing what so ever. The evidence I cited to the contrary above can be applied to all the lawsuits carried out so far. By all means get a lawsuit, reference me the evidence and I will gladly find the evidence to the contrary above. If I have missed out something, by all means tell me and I will gladly post in reply. Until these individuals come out with solid proof of Obamas birth off American soil these lawsuits will continue to be dead in the water.

Lie: The Fact check.org analysis of the birth certificate is bias and they were staunch supporters of Barack Obama during the campaign, anything they say shouldn’t be taken as evidence. Their evidence presented is a joken given their involvement with the Obama campaign.

Truth: Its so easy for the pot to call the kettle black these days eh? These same individual who screamout bias day after day not just about factchecker but about other media outles source their own information without question from well know partisan propaganda websites such as “thefreerepublic”, “Israeli insider” and “atlas shrugged”. If you want the evidence disregarded on such websites as fact checker, it be wise for your own piece of mind to disregard the garbage being pumped on these propaganda websites day in and day out, which unfortunately I don’t see happening because after all, the entire conspiracy itself is based on this kind of information lacking credible sources, nothing more.

Lie: If he would just show his long form birth certificate this conspiracy would end completely.

Truth: The individuals behind this conspiracy tend to hold multiple other conspiracies about Obama. With the evidence above being given over time which clearly shows how full of holes this conspiracy really was from the start the individuals still continued to demand, still continue to believe Obama was born off American soil with little more to show for it than hearsay. Why? Because most of these individuals will never be satisfied so long as Obama remains president. Neither is President Obama obligated to cater to every demand being made by the very same individuals who had theorized multiple other conspiracies and negative stories about his family. I would say the same about both Republican and Democratic presidents of the past. You cant expect to satisfy everybody.
There is one way for the administration to then find it necessary to release the birth certificate, that will most probably happen when those behind this birth certificate conspiracy actually come up with the solid proof they need to indicate Obama was born off American soil. Simple declaring his birth certificate as a fake by their own personal beliefs will not bring anything out under the court of law neither will it connect him to being born off American soil.

By the way folks, I suggest you keep a look out for some of the birthers who fail to read and quote directly from the OP only to repeat the same excuse. It only further proves that any evidence is irrelevant to them, its really a matter of wanting to believe.

SG

[edit on 15-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:31 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Truth: The birth certificate presented by the Obama campaign was verified multiple times by the Hawaii state health department:



The same Birth Certificate claiming Obama's father's race was "African"?

The PC term of African American was not common in 1961. Africa is a continent not a race. Black and White people live on the continent of Africa. So putting African as race really doesn't make sense.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:36 PM
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Originally posted by RRconservative
The same Birth Certificate claiming Obama's father's race was "African"?


Please read the OP where it clearly discussed that matter, Regarding the term "african american" Obama snr was not "african american", he was a man from Kenya, in Africa, this is why you folks believe this birth certificate conspiracy in the first place.

If you can account for the term "african" never having being used prior to the 1960s by all means. At the end of the day you are not an expert in matters of the birth certificate, thanks. (and please back up your sources)

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]


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posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:37 PM
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I have some questions. Why doesn't Obama simply show everyone his long-form birth certificate and end this once and for all? Why has he spent $900,000 keeping his vital records under lock and key? Why have all of the cases involving his vital records been dismissed?

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Totakeke]



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
I have some questions. Why doesn't Obama simply show everyone his long-form birth certificate and end this once and for all? Why has he spent $900,000 keeping his vital records under lock and key? Why have all of the cases involving his vital records been dismissed?

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Totakeke]


Boy you folks aint reading the OP are you? I challange the bithers here to actually take out direct quotes from the OP, it actually shows that they give a damn about the evidence put forth in favour of the entire conspiracy.

Read the last part of the OP thanks.


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posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:54 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

Originally posted by Totakeke
I have some questions. Why doesn't Obama simply show everyone his long-form birth certificate and end this once and for all? Why has he spent $900,000 keeping his vital records under lock and key? Why have all of the cases involving his vital records been dismissed?

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Totakeke]


Boy you folks aint reading the OP are you? I challange the bithers here to actually take out direct quotes from the OP, it actually shows that they give a damn about the evidence put forth in favour of the entire conspiracy.

Read the last part of the OP thanks.


Okay, I read the OP, but it still doesn't answer my questions. Certainly it would be easier to just show his birth certificate than to let this all continue. I mean, he isn't required to prove to the American people that he's eligible to lead, but for someone who's touted a transparent government he sure is being very opaque.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 09:56 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian
Boy you folks aint reading the OP are you? I challange the bithers here to actually take out direct quotes from the OP, it actually shows that they give a damn about the evidence put forth in favour of the entire conspiracy.

Read the last part of the OP thanks.


I disagree with that, till the long form document is authorized to be released by Obama from the State of Hawaii records, this problem will still be around. If he were to OK it, personally for me, seeing the State of Hawaii release the Time, date, location, hospital and Doctor of birth would put all those questions to rest. It sounds like the State of Hawaii has that kind of info, it needs Obama's OK to release it, if I have understood the process.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:01 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
Okay, I read the OP, but it still doesn't answer my questions. Certainly it would be easier


Easier for what? Say this me now, will the mentality of these individuals change whether Obama shows his long form or not? It seems to me this is just a matter of making demands because you "just dont like things the way they are".

There will always be some conspiracy about the president of these United States, as all false conspiracies have been in the past. What good would have it done even if Reagan tried to prove he wasnt the anti-christ? What about Bush snr, if he closed the conspiracy regarding him being a reptillian. There will always be some conspiracy somewhere about some leader regardless. Its just inevitable and the best way to deal with it aint meeting the demands of the looneys behind the computer screens just because that only makes them spread further "conspiracies". Its with evidence.

If you believe Obama was not born on US soil, prove it. If the evidence is stacked up against you I suggest you start searching for that "evidence" of yours.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by pavil
I disagree with that, till the long form document is authorized to be released by Obama from the State of Hawaii records, this problem will still be around.


And you really think the problem among other conspiracies will go away once he releases his long form? There are folks who still believe the moon landing was faked despite the evidence to the contrary. Im saying here that conspiracy theories are inevitable, for you to make an excuse for the individuals of interest to time after time meet the demands of the conspiracy theorists to close down one, im sorry it doesnt work that way.

The nature of conspiracy theories is that they will always exist, closing one will open another, its a cycle. The best way to do it is to present the evidence opposing or supporting.

For example, none of you have provided any evidence than Obama was born off soil. You cant demand the president release his long form and his 6th grade certificate if you have nothing more behind your concerns than simple "wanting to see it".

[edit on 14-7-2009 by Southern Guardian]


+2 more 
posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:13 PM
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And you really think the problem among other conspiracies will go away once he releases his long form? There are folks who still believe the moon landing was faked despite the evidence to the contrary. Im saying here that conspiracy theories are inevitable, for you to make an excuse for the individuals of interest to time after time meet the demands of the conspiracy theorists to close down one, im sorry it doesnt work that way.


I'm pretty sure if Obama released his birth certificate the conspiracies would end. Some people might not believe it, but most Americans would be satisfied.



For example, none of you have provided any evidence than Obama was born off soil. You cant demand the president release his long form and his 6th grade certificate if you have nothing more behind your concerns than simple "wanting to see it".


It's not as if people woke up one day and said, "Hmm... I don't think Obama's a natural-born citizen. I think I'll demand that he show us his birth certificate." It's that people woke up one day and found out that he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawyer's fees to hide his birth certificate. The only time people lock things up is if they have something to hide. If he was born in the United States, why lock up his birth certificate?



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:19 PM
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Originally posted by Southern Guardian

And you really think the problem among other conspiracies will go away once he releases his long form? There are folks who still believe the moon landing was faked despite the evidence to the contrary. Im saying here that conspiracy theories are inevitable, for you to make an excuse for the individuals of interest to time after time meet the demands of the conspiracy theorists to close down one, im sorry it doesnt work that way.



I'm not asking for HIM to release it or produce it, I am asking for him to give the State of Hawaii the permission to release IT'S records of his birth. That would satisfy me and I think, the vast majority of those who have some lingering doubts. Yes, there will still be those that deny, but many will take the State of Hawaii records coming from the State itself, as proof enough. To not release, just gives the impression of concealing, not being upfront.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
I'm pretty sure if Obama released his birth certificate the conspiracies would end.


Im pritty sure if those moon landing deniers saw the american flag on the moon themselves it would not end and they would probably formulate some other conspiracy in addition.


Some people might not believe it, but most Americans would be satisfied.


I see a tone of denial here, you say it would end, yet you admit there would still be some folks who would hold the conspiracy. For you information most americans are already satisfied. America doesnt orbit the realm of the rightwing blogosphere.

This nation survived 233 years with many of the 44 presidents only having had to provide their offical short form birth certificates. Im sure we will continue to survive this administration without it as well.

SG



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:21 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
Why doesn't Obama simply show everyone his long-form birth certificate and end this once and for all?


If both forms are perfectly legal, what's the difference ?

How is long-form more legal or acceptable then a short one ?

Or is it that long form would give more "suspicious" data to believers to juggle them into even more "refreshing" spin offs of the same old crap ?



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:23 PM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
It's that people woke up one day and found out that he spent hundreds of thousands of dollars in lawyer's fees to hide his birth certificate. The only time people lock things up is if they have something to hide. If he was born in the United States, why lock up his birth certificate?


Has he spent hundreds of thousands on this? I'm not sure.

I do agree that it looks like he is hiding by not releasing. What kind of info would be on a birth certificate that you would care that got released? OMG he weighed 9lbs 14oz's!!!???!!! There is nothing on a BC that would warrant keeping it private with such questions surrounding his birth.

[edit on 14-7-2009 by pavil]



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by 5thElement

If both forms are perfectly legal, what's the difference ?

How is long-form more legal or acceptable then a short one ?



If I am not mistaken the long form will have the Hospital, date, time, doctor ect... The short form just says "yeah, he was born". The short form lacks those details. If he was born in Hawaii, chances are he was born in a hospital, which one? To me that would be proof he was born on US soil, which is the real crux of the issue. I know what hospital I was born at.



posted on Jul, 14 2009 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 




Im pritty sure if those moon landing deniers saw the american flag on the moon themselves it would not end and they would probably formulate some other conspiracy in addition.


Just because the flag appears to be on the moon definitely doesn't prove that it's actually on the moon. Hardly evidence.



I see a tone of denial here, you say it would end, yet you admit there would still be some folks who would hold the conspiracy. For you information most americans are already satisfied. America doesnt orbit the realm of the rightwing blogosphere.


Rightwing blogosphere? Since when did it become a partisan issue? There are both liberals and conservatives who would like to see Obama's long-form birth certificate.



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 01:16 AM
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Originally posted by Totakeke

Rightwing blogosphere? Since when did it become a partisan issue? There are both liberals and conservatives who would like to see Obama's long-form birth certificate.


Maybe true... However, so far, actions on this bill says otherwise... It's only Repubs. so far.

The bill title is very long.


To amend the Federal Election Campaign Act of 1971 to require the principal campaign committee of a candidate for election to the office of President to include with the committee's statement of organization a copy of the candidate's birth certificate, together with such other documentation as may be necessary to establish that the candidate meets the qualifications for eligibility to the Office of President under the Constitution.


They need more Dems to sign on.

Then just pass this bill.

Ever write a check at the store? Ever notice the close scrutiny given to your ID ... I try to use my real one most times.


Then, For those cashiers with a sharp eye... I whip out a napkin with my birth certificate scribbled onto it. (Floral embossing gives it that nice professional touch.)



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 05:20 AM
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reply to post by Southern Guardian
 


Very good OP!!!

I think it underscores that there is more important issues to discuss...

S+F



posted on Jul, 15 2009 @ 05:25 AM
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Originally posted by Totakeke
reply to post by Southern Guardian
 




Im pritty sure if those moon landing deniers saw the american flag on the moon themselves it would not end and they would probably formulate some other conspiracy in addition.


Just because the flag appears to be on the moon definitely doesn't prove that it's actually on the moon. Hardly evidence.



I see a tone of denial here, you say it would end, yet you admit there would still be some folks who would hold the conspiracy. For you information most americans are already satisfied. America doesnt orbit the realm of the rightwing blogosphere.


Rightwing blogosphere? Since when did it become a partisan issue? There are both liberals and conservatives who would like to see Obama's long-form birth certificate.


Not me... I think this stinks of partisanship... Maybe an attempt to rally the troops
and rustle up the small town "hey boy, you ain't from around these parts..." attitude.


One might of said a couple years back, "YER EMBOLDENING THE ENEMY"

Sort of like when the right loves to listen to every whim of the government when there is a GOP after the name.

Same ol same ol here...

GREAT OP!!!





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