Originally posted by PAYBACKCOMESSOON/

Timothy McVeigh didn't only stand for the innocent women and children who were killed evily in Waco, Texas or the poor girl the sniper killed in Ruby Ridge, he stood for the average American.

He sure as hell did not stand for me, my family or anyone that I know.

Unfortunately, children died in the bombing of Oklahoma City, but just as unfortunately, children died when monsters killed women and children in Waco, Texas.

In your opinion, some children are more important than others, than?

One man, and only one man vindicated their deaths. One man and only one man stood up and said "blood for blood in honor of fellow Americans".

Honor?

There should be a statue in his honor erected. I stand firm on this post!

They should have taken a page from the Saudis... and publicly beheaded him.



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ETA: 2009 thread resurrection? Why?

Let me address what seems to be the main argument of those who get McVeigh.

They utterly disagree with how the government's behaviour. This behaviour was showing no tendency to be modified. Therefore the option of change implemented by citizens in a forceful manner is/was an option.

While there are many people who understand the government's position in regards to Waco, many were unpleased with its handling. The usual argument here seems to be that they had the option of picking all the leaders and adults off by picking them up as they came in for supplies. That instead the government chose a method that was intended as a show of force, and it doesn't and didn't sit well with many.

The show of force was more important than the actual work.

None of what I just wrote is in support of McVeigh. It might not be in support of the government either.

I don't disagree with you gimmie.

What exactly is your solution to a government out of control, and where changes in governance don't effect any change in a fundamental problem?

The founders of your contry seemed to make what they thought was an effective control for that clear. It would seem to me that all areas of government should be aware that they cannot disassociate themselves from a fundamental meme of the country.

Originally posted by Aeons
I don't disagree with you gimmie.

What exactly is your solution to a government out of control, and where changes in governance don't effect any change in a fundamental problem?

The founders of your contry seemed to make what they thought was an effective control for that clear. It would seem to me that all areas of government should be aware that they cannot disassociate themselves from a fundamental meme of the country.

My solution? Certainly not more violence.Certainly not killing innocent people.Certainly not an eye for an eye.

And if you are looking to find peace in this world, the way to peace is not through war.

My solution is to try something besides violence. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again, expecting a different result each time. Violence begets violence my friend. Violence is not the answer to violence.Sadly, the human species is rather insane, so who knows if we will ever do anything else.

Unsatisfactory answer to your question I am sure. But hey, it's the best answer I can offer. Don't meet violence with more violence.

If it is wrong to kill innocent people, don't kill innocent people in response.

Besides,why lower yourself to such an awful level. You and I seem to both agree that the US government has done some awful things. Lots of innocent people have been killed. So why respond to such an outrage by killing more innocent people? Why stoop to such a lowly level?Doing so makes you no better than the one who committed the original atrocity.

I understand that my answer would only ever happen in an ideal world and that this world is far from ideal...But sadly, it is the best I can offer.

Isn't that awful? My only hope is that some day, some how, the world as a whole comes to it's senses enough to realize that we are only doing more harm. That an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. Then and only then, will we see a real solution to these problems.

I wish I could offer more of a solution and I am truly sorry that I can't.

On a side note, let me thank you for this conversation. It has been a good while since I have had a really great, heart felt discussion about such things. I've really been enjoying it and after all, we wont ever find a solution if we don't sit down and talk about it. So thanks.

It is an honest answer.

This is in some ways the underlying question of our time, made global.

How do you meet violence of governance - large scale, or tribal? How do you make societies backwards compatible?

That the questions are difficult only makes them so much more important to do something with other than regulate them and hope to make lions into lambs.

Originally posted by Aeons


How do you meet violence of governance - large scale, or tribal? How do you make societies backwards compatible?

And that is a really great question. What can we do? It seems like the answer should be so simple. But it is not, at least to me.

Take the middle east for a general example. There is so much violence over there. By our own country, by the countries over there and even by individual people.

I have always been a supporter of nonviolent resistance, but in a situation like that, we can't realistically expect to join hands, form a human chain and say "Please stop" and just expect all the problems to magically go away.

So what can we do? Sometimes as an individual I feel so helpless. I would love to help put an end to such atrocities. But what can you or I do as an individual?

And I think that is what it comes down to, perhaps. What can we do as an individual to help fix this problem?

In the short term, not much. But we can lead by example.

I can't make countries stop bombing each other but I can be the one to "turn the other cheek". I can be the one to offer a helping hand to some one I see who needs help. Even though it is only a small thing you are doing, it does make a difference and hopefully, some one will see your example and follow.

When I help some one and they respond with " How can I ever repay you?" My response is" Just pay it forward". I say this in hopes of encouraging them to do the right thing.

I know I am speaking idealistically. I don't know if anyone I ever helped did pay it forward. But I think that if perhaps enough people do these simple things and enough people pay it forward. Who knows. Maybe it will make a difference.

Maybe that's a part of the solution. Rather than trying to tackle the larger problem, we should start small and work our way up. I don't know.

I wish I did have the perfect solution. The answer. But at the end of the day, when there is only so much one person can do, I think that every little bit helps.

Start out small. Hope it catches on. Who knows, maybe it will. The way I see it, it's worth a shot. It's something different. And like I said, we really need that something different.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
My only question is why did someone resurrect a 4 year old thread that had not been commented on since 09

LoL just curious as to why someone would pull it back up again after it died

I like to see if time allows the truth to be exposed. I seem to run into nut jobs like McVeigh alot. Interesting how he ties in with the Branch Dividan.

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
My only question is why did someone resurrect a 4 year old thread that had not been commented on since 09
LoL just curious as to why someone would pull it back up again after it died

I did that. We got a pod of McVeigh-worshippers in here for a month or two. Real sick people. And so I got curious about previous McVeigh threads and found a few. Got reading them. Commented. That kind of thing ..

I think the OP is disinformation. I know these grass roots rebellion people exist, but can they all be this insane? Odds are against it. This whole plot and all the motives seem too far fetched. There is some kind of coverup going on.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ManBehindTheMask
My only question is why did someone resurrect a 4 year old thread that had not been commented on since 09
LoL just curious as to why someone would pull it back up again after it died

I did that. We got a pod of McVeigh-worshippers in here for a month or two. Real sick people. And so I got curious about previous McVeigh threads and found a few. Got reading them. Commented. That kind of thing ..

Some of that might be da'feds looking at seeing how the meme is doing and testing the waters. The Breivik thing in Norway is the same essential culture meme, which probably has them a little concerned.

Does anyone have information regarding the 40+ hours of taped interview Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck used in writing American Terrorist? I know some was used in the MSNBC documentary but i'm interested in transcript or the actual audio, i have been able to find zero information on this subject. thanks.

I'm still surprised Terry Nichols and that other guy Mcveigh met in the army didn't get longer sentences, they literally knew it was going to happen. I can see the technicality but if it were post 9/11 they would have been given a harsher penalty, in the sense of a witch hunt and execution.

obvious troll is obvious

justified violence helped hitler into power

I bet you think he was a "go getter" eh ?

obvious troll is obvious