Darwin and Dawkins are both Wrong and Evil, page 5

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reply posted on 6-7-2009 @ 10:06 PM by Fromabove

Originally posted by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Fromabove

And if my aunt had wheels, she'd be a wagon. In other words, that goobledy gook, while poetic, says nothing about the topic at hand!

Sure it does.. it says if life had a creator it would be God. If there were no God there would be no life, because when it all comes downs to the correct answer, you can't get something (the universe) from nothing at all, so God must remain a viable possibility for all things that exist.

reply posted on 7-7-2009 @ 02:22 PM by JaxonRoberts

reply to post by Fromabove

While this might be a valid point concerning Dawkins, it is completely invalid concerning Darwin. How many times does it have to be said, evolution neither proves nor disproves the existance of The Divine. It is simply a theory that explains the observations of life found in nature. Nothing more, nothing less.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 01:04 AM by Angel One

reply to post by JaxonRoberts

Ok now you are claiming equal or more quantity than Einstein at the time of his death. Curious, can you comprehend the existence and make up of a unified field? I at a mere 137 only am not educated enough to obtain that quantity yet, but my potential, I know exceeds Einsteins 150-160 or any of these mainstream scientists, simply because I can imagine far better than they can. This truth gives me an edge in the scientific world as I am also an Artist.

When I have completed, and can fully understand the calculus, I will immediately be able to drop several equations that will become the fundamental truth in geology. I even have a very special one already named and understand how to devise its contents and answer. I know that I can drop the geocalculus, so to speak, once I understand calculus fully.

I also see my answer for the unified field theory and look forward to answering that one particularily, but I will drop that in publication, not on ats.

156 huh really lol, at 156 you should be able to visualize a perfectly unified field, can you perform calculus, being at the level of iq 156 can not come if you can't fully understand the math required to attain that goal at all. Personally I had to relearn my math skills since an event occurred in 2001 made me relearn many things. I can now enter college algebra at the 156 level but calculus is still a year away.

My great genius will manifest itself in chemistry and geosciences at first, but I can address the problem of so much spacetime occuring within six to seven thousand literal years. Space and time are not fixed they are absolutely maleable, strechable, compressable, it can even be folded up like a book, and spread out in an instant. I could explain more but you can just read it when I publish it, and when I do Angel One will be revealed for all to see. He will be preparing the way for God, by revealing certain of the mysteries and secrets of God, that the mystery of God should be completed in these final days, for the devil and his crew.

This will be a blessing and great achievment that will possibly bring in millions of believers, I will greatly Praise God when that is completed and none of you can stop me, I start my next semester in August and won't stop untill I am done, and can be called Dr. The only thing that can hinder me is a cataclysm, but even then I will find my way into a school sooner or later.

When it comes to my opposition I've got one thing to say, "I have come to fight you".

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 01:38 AM by Angel One

reply to post by weedwhacker

If you think that it is true that entropy does not infect every system, then why do we get older. Reproduction is specifically created as a system and it also undergoes entropy e.g. menopause, andropause. I can't believe that you sit there opposing me thinking that entropy is not in effect everywhere, but by and by it is in everything.

By your definition the only way to evercome entropy is to have energy injected into the system from an outside source. What, you mean like from God, for that is the only outside source.

How come they cannot replicate the formation of life by electrically shocking amino acids with lightning bolts. Because intelligent design is required as well as the "Breath of God".

I believe that we may have given birth to computers that may be conscious but they were created by an intelligent design and probably from reverse engeneering something they found. God has technology also some of his mechanically inclined angels are described in Ezekiel and in fact a lot of Bible references describe some sort of living machines. Yaweh made each and every form of life that will ever exist by the hand of His Son Jesus Christ. I have come to engage evolution in battle to the death.

See, you come at me with evolutionary theory and lies, but I come at you in the name of the Lord, and with his knowledge and power, I have come to fight you. Hey, if you wanna push the selective entropy idea, then I say, "prove it", show me one instance of something coming from nothing and then ordering itself in the presence of entropy. Whats more prove to me that you can in a labratory, produce an environment, by any means, without entropy in it, even when injecting more energy into said system, even all of that is being worked on by entropy.

I know full well what entropy means and would not have opened my mouth if I did not. You cannot adjust this absolute Law of Physics to fit your stupid and shallow, Godless, theory of evolution. Life does not come without a living God period. Prove that isn't true. Sons come from fathers as designed by God per the reproductive system.

[edit on 9-7-2009 by Angel One]

[edit on 9-7-2009 by Angel One]

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 03:03 AM by badmedia

Originally posted by Angel One
156 huh really lol, at 156 you should be able to visualize a perfectly unified field, can you perform calculus, being at the level of iq 156 can not come if you can't fully understand the math required to attain that goal at all. Personally I had to relearn my math skills since an event occurred in 2001 made me relearn many things. I can now enter college algebra at the 156 level but calculus is still a year away.

In truth, the universe is static and never moves or changes, only our consciousness moves within the universe, and time is merely a change from 1 dimension to the next while being in a limited perspective of all that "is". It appears linear from our perspective, but it moves and bends every time we make a choice, no matter if it's a consciousness choice or not.

IQ isn't a measure of how "smart" someone is. It's a measure of how fast they learn and what patterns they are able to recognize in things.

Having a high IQ is an obvious advantage because it means they are able to learn more in the same amount of time as another. As they have to spend less time and effort at it, they are more likely to finish it as well.

However, anyone is capable of learning and understanding the same exact things. And just because someone may have a high IQ doesn't mean they are going to know calculus.

I'm a programmer. I write the equations, rather than solve them.

As Einstein once said, "Any fool can know, the point is to understand".

Or, if you prefer the bible:

Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.

[edit on 7/9/2009 by badmedia]

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 04:07 AM by Astyanax

Originally posted by Flighty
Charles Darwins cousin was Francis Galton who in 1883 coined the term EUGENICS. Galton wanted Eugenics to develop from a Science to a Policy to a Religion. With Darwin, the apple didn't fall to far from the family tree.

I think what Darwin did to creation and God and what his cousin wanted to do to Humans, made both of them very evil men. But that's just my opinion.

And a venomous, false opinion it is, too.

Your post is nothing but a gratuitous slander of two great men and a prominent English family as well known in its time for its tolerance, charity and humanitarian spirit as for the many notable intellectual figures it produced.

Not only is your post vicious and hateful: it is off topic, and contributes nothing of value to the discussion.

It is also profoundly ignorant.

Galton invented the term and concept 'eugenics' more than twenty years after The Origin of Species was published. The word 'eugenics' simply means improving the human race through selective breeding; it was far from pejorative at the time of its coining, and in fact democratic societies practised eugenics in some form or the other for generations. In truth, they still do - for example, by restricting opportunities for mental defectives to breed - even though this is now achieved by unspoken social agreements rather than by official decree.

The idea of breeding for racial purity was a Nazi perversion of eugenics that has given the whole concept a bad name and licenses people like you to smear science and scientists with guilt by association for crimes they did not commit nor ever dream of committing.

Throughout, your post displays the ignorance, fear, hatred and smallmindedness - not to mention the propensity to spread lies - that are typical of creationism and the degenerate form of religiosity from which it springs.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 04:13 AM by Astyanax

Originally posted by bwinwright
DARWIN WAS WRONG

Go to: darwinwrong.tripod.com...

WAKE UP!!!!!! THINK for YOURSELF!!!!!!

What a load of illogical, unsubstantiated, semiliterate twaddle. And this is your proof that Darwin was wrong?

The idiot hasn't done any work on dolphin sonar at all.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 11:20 AM by John Matrix

reply to post by badmedia

Very well said badmedia.

I would add that some people learn faster in different areas. Not everyone can play Beethoven's moonlight sonata; Debussy's Clair de lune; liszt's liebestraum no 3 at the age of 10 years old!!

I have a high aptitude for art, spacial relations, mechanics, verbalization skills (including profanity), health and fitness, painting or drawing scenery, computers and a few others. But I suck at any math that has letters associated with it......what is that anyway...algebra? Trigonometry I was able to get, and some basic eighth grade algebra. So my IQ in some areas are high and in some areas low.

IQ tests aimed at discovering what a persons aptitudes are, are much better.

I know this.....if you dangle the right carrot under my nose I will surely apply myself to learn what is needed to get that carrot....say a million dollars!!

Creativity is the highest form of intelligence, and the best explanation for all that is.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 11:29 AM by John Matrix

reply to post by Angel One

Keep up the good fight. Lord knows I tried on ATS. But some people will hold to their evolutionist religious faith to death because of their pride.

Pride was the downfall of many angels, including the devil himself. Pride that denies God his rightful place is the downfall of humanity.

IMHO.

[edit on 9/7/09 by John Matrix]

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 06:12 PM by JaxonRoberts

Originally posted by Angel One
reply to post by JaxonRoberts

Ok now you are claiming equal or more quantity than Einstein at the time of his death. Curious, can you comprehend the existence and make up of a unified field? I at a mere 137 only am not educated enough to obtain that quantity yet, but my potential, I know exceeds Einsteins 150-160 or any of these mainstream scientists, simply because I can imagine far better than they can. This truth gives me an edge in the scientific world as I am also an Artist.

Physics is not my thing. My interest lies in philosophy, metaphysics and spirituality, not in math and science. I have however read a great deal in those areas where they apply to my interests. Even Einstien and Stephen Hawking cannot 'comprehend' unified field theory! It is a very open area of research. As for the 'truth' concerning your imagination, this statement is both arrogant and ignorant. You have no personal knowledge to be able to make this assessment and comparision. Being an 'artist' is completely irrelavent to the subject at hand. Unless you are trying to tell us that you can solve the mysteries of the Universe because you can paint pretty pictures?

When I have completed, and can fully understand the calculus, I will immediately be able to drop several equations that will become the fundamental truth in geology. I even have a very special one already named and understand how to devise its contents and answer. I know that I can drop the geocalculus, so to speak, once I understand calculus fully.

I think it would be wise to wait until you 'understand calculus fully' before you start running your mouth concerning your 'breakthroughs' in 'geocalculus'. The first sentence is again, extremely arrogant.

I also see my answer for the unified field theory and look forward to answering that one particularily, but I will drop that in publication, not on ats.

Again, ignorant and arrogant. You are still in school and already have delusions of adequacy. Good luck on finding a publication for that, as no one has an 'answer' for unified field theory, and you are not even studying physics! How can a degree in Geology give you the tools to even comprehend unified field theory, when those who are experts in the field of Physics cannot?

156 huh really lol, at 156 you should be able to visualize a perfectly unified field, can you perform calculus, being at the level of iq 156 can not come if you can't fully understand the math required to attain that goal at all. Personally I had to relearn my math skills since an event occurred in 2001 made me relearn many things. I can now enter college algebra at the 156 level but calculus is still a year away.

Ahh, now we see what is really going on! Had to relearn math skills! Maybe fell and hit your head??? And you are making claims concerning Calculus, but here you admit that you haven't even began to study it yet! I was also unaware that Universities had IQ levels as a starting point for any area of study! Guess you think of yourself as another Charlie Eppes???

My great genius will manifest itself in chemistry and geosciences at first, but I can address the problem of so much spacetime occuring within six to seven thousand literal years. Space and time are not fixed they are absolutely maleable, strechable, compressable, it can even be folded up like a book, and spread out in an instant. I could explain more but you can just read it when I publish it, and when I do Angel One will be revealed for all to see. He will be preparing the way for God, by revealing certain of the mysteries and secrets of God, that the mystery of God should be completed in these final days, for the devil and his crew.

Umm, dude, you're not a genius! You are three points short of that goal! Genius starts at 140. Sorry, but Mensa doesn't want you! As to the rest, I believe the British refer to it as 'twaddle'. Apparently you go into your classes with your eyes closed and your fingers in your ears going "lalalalalalala". A real scientist goes wherever the evidence leads. You go into it with a preconceived agenda. You are not a scientist. You are just another Kent Hovind. Blind faith means that you will never see all of the possibilities.

This will be a blessing and great achievment that will possibly bring in millions of believers, I will greatly Praise God when that is completed and none of you can stop me, I start my next semester in August and won't stop untill I am done, and can be called Dr. The only thing that can hinder me is a cataclysm, but even then I will find my way into a school sooner or later.

Dude, the only Institution that would consider giving you a Doctorate, given your lack of an open mind to the laws already established in your field, is this one:

Hope you and 'Dr. Dino' have fun at the alumni mixers!

When it comes to my opposition I've got one thing to say, "I have come to fight you".

To quote 'The Rock', "Just Bring It!" What is apparent is that you suffer from FFS, and refuse to look at the world with your eyes open, because it might shatter your faith. Do yourself a favor, and drop out of school immediately! You are just wasting your time and the time of your professors. That is, of course, that you actually are in school and not just making this all up to give yourself some 'cred'.

"The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool."

William Shakespeare

I think we all know which one you are.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 06:33 PM by juzchilln

reply to post by JaxonRoberts

This could partly be one of the reasons why science was punished so severely in the dark ages. It was viewed as the Devil's tool to make man NOT believe in god.

I think the theories placed before us, (some of them possibly true..others don't stand the test of time), are nothing more than decoys used to disguise the fabric that God has created. And only the man who uses both Scientific and Spiritual powers in harmony, can find the ultimate true that lies between our scientific findings and our religious revelations.

Like a cipher that when over lapped reveals the truth. But as long as the two sides battle with each other in everlasting warfare, we will never see the truth.

It's like we are flat worlders, per Carl Sagan. We only see the tip of the mountain with our scientific vision, and it is enough to make us ignore the rest of the mountain, bickering over opposite sides that should be working in unison.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 07:43 PM by TurkeyBurgers

I just wanted to say that a few people have pointed out that Science and Atheism are two different things.

For me they are not. Science is what forced me to currently be an Atheist. I could not continue with a double standard of using Science to attempt to understand Space and the Earth and Life but put it on the back burner when it came to my own faith. I had to really stop and ask myself is faith Scientific? It is absolutely not. I was not being fair to myself or to Science.

Once I started digging for the truth there was no turning back. Eventually I came to my own religion and my own faith which at the time was agnostic. I challenged myself and my strongly held beliefs.

It was GLORIOUS!

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 08:39 PM by badmedia

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Then you simply failed to understand that what is flesh is flesh, and what is spirit is spirit.

It's not really about choosing 1 or the other. It's about having a proper understanding. If you understood the bible, then you would know it states very clearly that there is the realm of creation and the realm of spirit.

The faults in religion is because it tries to apply the realm of spirit to the realm of creation. And the fault in science is that it tries to apply the realm of creation into the realm of spirit.

Without the scientist, there would be no science. Without the spirit to observe things, there would be nothing to "know" creation. And without the consciousness to create the logic science works to understand, there would be no universe.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 08:47 PM by TurkeyBurgers

reply to post by badmedia

I have to disagree with you BadMedia. You are refusing to apply science to the concept of a spirit or a soul.

I call upon the name of Above Top Secret and challenge you to apply Science to your religious beliefs.

I am not sure if I can do that but I am doing it.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 09:02 PM by badmedia

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
reply to post by badmedia

I have to disagree with you BadMedia. You are refusing to apply science to the concept of a spirit or a soul.

I call upon the name of Above Top Secret and challenge you to apply Science to your religious beliefs.

I am not sure if I can do that but I am doing it.

I'm not a Christian, and I don't have beliefs. I have understanding.

I am a programmer and I spent years of my life working on the logic behind AI in my free time as a personal project. I came to understand many things that most people have never even thought to ask.

And at the end of the day, you can not get choice and free will from things that work as Science does. You can not even generate a random number with a computer. We generate pseudo-random numbers to suit the purposes, but it is merely an illusion that it is random. As it is the product of action and reaction, it is completely predictable. In fact, there are services which use things such as the radio background of the universe as being a base for generating a random number. And even it is only random because the computer doesn't know or generate that number on it's own.

Now, if you want me to give you something which gives the appearance and illusion of being intelligent, that I can do. I can put into a program the logic my consciousness comes up with into action and reaction. It's what all programs are. But that program does not have a soul, it does not have consciousness, it does not understand anything more than a rocket understands it's a rocket. It is simply following the logic I as a programmer gave it.

Here are 2 posts to get you started.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...

There is no logic which can explain consciousness, what it means to be, feel, or to be an observer. It is beyond logic, so you can not apply science to it. In fact, science does not even think about addressing it, it flat out ignores it.

So maybe you should challenge science itself to apply itself to these things, rather than ignoring them. Even psychology is the study of behavior patterns, it doesn't even attempt to describe these things.

But the truth is, Science is ill equipped and can NOT deal with these things. Because the moment "choice" ends up in the equation, it is no longer repeatable or provable, because it does not keep happening over and over. In replace of choice, Science instead will just use "random", which is in itself impossible as I showed before(or just go to random.org and read up).

The closest you will find that brings consciousness in the equation is quantum physics. And then people get all taboo because it starts to suggest and prove the understandings of the bible true.

How can you expect to understand the father and things if you do understand what is "you"? It's like trying to understand a forest without understanding a tree. Tell me, what are YOU? I'm not asking what possessions you have, or what you do for a living. I'm asking what is it that possesses those things, and does those things.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 09:49 PM by TurkeyBurgers

reply to post by badmedia

I think that humans do not get to enjoy the concept of "free will" outside of the bounds of programming rules.

Our instincts are so very strong that most people cannot just choose to ignore them. They are RULED by them.

The instinct to procreate is so powerful people scrap careers and entire families for the chance of a few seconds of passion or the drug of an orgasm entering the brain.

I think it is less about the free will to make the choice to cheat and more of the rules and programming values of instinct pushing you towards "thinking with the wrong head" if you will.

Also for your comparing a computer program of awareness and consciousness you are so very wrong!

The human brain is believed to contain between 10- 100 billion+ neurons! Imagine that in computing terms. The neuron is ridiculously wicked sick.

Each neuron itself is like a mini computer. More than capable of storing more information than just a one or a Zero!

Imagine a computer made up of 100 billion miniature computers all connected to each other in a vast fiber optic cluster fook.

THEN you can start imagining self awareness.

I mean what is self awareness?

Scientists describe the human minds recognition of things as thousands of different pieces of information being processed and brought together very fast.

When you think of a plane you have one small section of the brain that stores data on Air another section for Weight another for materials like plastic and metal another for what the education a captain would have to go through another for the size of it another section of the brain to store information on color another section for speed another section of the brain that stores information on the history of flight I could go on and on for thousands of different thoughts that ALL come together in less than an instant to create what you perceive as an image of a plane in your mind.

That is INTEL INSIDE bragh!

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 10:00 PM by badmedia

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Ok, so what are those neurons presenting the things to? So what you are saying is that by putting a bunch of neurons together, it magically creates consciousness?

Where are the chemicals that create "awareness"? What is the magical mix of atoms that creates these things? So you combine some chemicals, a bit of electricity, and from that consciousness just appears?

Where is this magical atom or particle that contains this awareness? Where is that magical atom or particle that makes you able to observe. All the brains neurons, but those aren't what "views" things, that is memories(specific patterns) and so forth.

If the eyes collect light, transfers that into electrical signals, which goes through the brain and all those neurons, and is then presented back into the images "we" see, then to what are those things presented too? Chemicals? 1 chemical combines with another, and from that we get consciousness? a specific electrical pattern combines with these chemicals and from that we get awareness?

Sorry, but sounds like a bunch of beliefs and faith to me.

I asked before, I'll ask again. What are YOU?

As far as the brain being a computer, I can probably give you tons of information on that fact. Even from long term memory(hard drive), short term memory(RAM), indexes on memories(databases), and so forth. When working on AI, I came to see the reasons for things of the brain.

But I am not talking about the computer. I'm talking about that which uses the computer. The computer uses the computer? I'm not talking about science, I'm talking about the scientist that is needed in order to understand it.

[edit on 7/9/2009 by badmedia]

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 10:12 PM by TurkeyBurgers

reply to post by badmedia

You nailed it EXACTLY man!

"If the eyes collect light, transfers that into electrical signals, which goes through the brain and all those neurons, and is then presented back into the images "we" see, then to what are those things presented too? Chemicals? 1 chemical combines with another, and from that we get consciousness? a specific electrical pattern combines with these chemicals and from that we get awareness?" - BadMedia

You GOT IT! YES!

This is exactly it. The concept of consciousness you are describing is not something that suddenly a human all of a sudden looked in a mirror and yelled out HOLY CRAP THAT IS ME! It is basically that but not INSTANTLY it is over time that our brains evolved to be able to do that.

Animals are capable of intelligence. Maybe not to the same degree that humans are but they are capable. Dogs have dreams where they "Chase Rabbits".

It did not "just appear" but came from a long history of evolving into the current species we are and the tools and technology we developed. Speech. Opposable thumbs. The set of eyes we have. Our hearing. The sense of touch of smell. All of our organic sensors to probe the world around us combined with the most awesomely evolved hardware/software brain package in the animal kingdom.

We learned to recognize ourselves as ourselves in the reflection in the water.

Have you heard of the test scientists use to determine if an animal is self aware?

They will use a sticker or paint to mark the animal and then see if when they look in the mirror they try and wipe it off or remove it.

That is being aware that you are yourself when looking into a mirror.

Very few animals are capable of doing that in nature.

BUT there are some that can. They are self aware. Consciousness if you will.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 10:29 PM by badmedia

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

Ok, so which one of the chemicals, or electrical pattern is the consciousness?

As the eyes convert those electrical signals, it means that every unique and possible image we can see/percieve is it's own unique pattern. No different than the patterns used in radio and so forth.

So what are the chemicals that create this magical element, or what is the specific pattern/combination of the constant awareness? Or am I just to accept your brand of dogma?

The brain is just a tool. Like a car. You might get a ferrari or a geo metro, but neither of them is the driver. The size of your brain, the environment around you and so forth merely define your experience. They do not define that which experiences it.

The truth is, you are god, and god is the only observer of all things in the end. But if you want to believe you do not exist, well so be it. Seems to be the human condition.

reply posted on 9-7-2009 @ 10:48 PM by TurkeyBurgers

reply to post by badmedia

Wait did you just read what I said about animals being self aware? Lets talk about that. Please what are your thoughts on animals being self aware?

Here is some more good stuff.

FOR example.

The human brain has a huge number of synapses. Each of the 10 to the 11th power (one hundred billion) neurons has on average 7,000 synaptic connections to other neurons. It has been estimated that the brain of a three-year-old child has about 10 to the 15th power synapses (1 quadrillion). This number declines with age, stabilizing by adulthood. Estimates vary for an adult, ranging from 10 to the 14th power to 5 x 10 to the 14th power synapses (100 to 500 trillion).

en.wikipedia.org...

So we are talking about 500 trillion to a quadrillion different possible places for small bits of information to be transferred stored analyzed.

WAT?

And you want me to explain to you exactly where and what part of that massive amount of computing hardware is the part that controls self awareness? Bro I am barely smart enough to type in a Google search.

Here are some more good facts about the brain compared to information computation.

The number of neurons in the brain varies dramatically from species to species. One estimate puts the human brain at about 100 billion neurons and 100 trillion synapses. Another estimate is 86 billion neurons of which 16.3 are in the cerebral cortex and 69 in the cerebellum.

By contrast, the nematode worm Caenorhabditis elegans has just 302 neurons making it an ideal experimental subject as scientists have been able to map all of the organism's neurons.

By contrast, the fruit fly Drosophila melanogaster has around 100,000 neurons and exhibits many complex behaviors.

The more neurons a living creature has the more processing power it has.

Combine processing power with hardware like hands and feet and eyes and tongues and vocal systems that allow complex sounds

WALLAGH! Consciousness!