They mapped the stars and the moon... and we call them cavemen?

Oh I know! We dont give other civilizations much credit. Just because they didnt do it with our methods doesnt mean they are any less smarter than we are.

I still don't get why we don't live in cave's.

Heck it's year around free air conditioning..same temp..year round.

So we wouldn't use nearly as many resource's as we do now.

Complete forest's wouldn't have to be leveled to build house's that get abandoned then tore down anyways. lol

They was smart even on that aspect..

it was easy to live there...easy to maintain..heck we all should go back to the cave's.

Great thread thanks.

Nice to see that there are some open-minded people out there willing to go out of their way to show us that our past may be significantly different to what all the books we have grown up with (for those that grew up with books that is...).

I would be quite interested in seeing this documentry. Inconclusive or not, one cannot dismiss this.

I think a lot of it is that we equate non technology with lack of intelligence. I dont' know what causes this line of thinking, but they didn't have a calculater so they sat and drooled. Fact is, they coudl have been every bit as intelligent, and this applies to any point in history, they just didnt' have the technology to support it. But that intelligence was put to use for the time, and if they were born today they may have created google earth.

reply to post by 2theC
That's a good post. Interesting links and a lot to think about. It's good to reinforce the facts that the guys that created the paintings were to all intents and purposes...us. They had the same sense of curiosity, creativity and wonder that we have. If their children were raised in the modern world, they'd also share the same potential as modern children.

I'm not sure who still pictures 'cave men' dragging their knuckles and grunting all the time. These guys had speech, organization and returned to caves like Lascaux and Chauvet over hundreds of years. I imagine they began as spiritual meeting places and, over time, grew in importance. Think Sistine Chapel or Canterbury Cathedral. Using their oral histories, it's plausible that the caves were increasingly held sacred as their origins faded in time.

Even their coprolites (fossil turd) have been moistened in solution and their diets examined. In some cases parasitic worm eggs have been found and the remnants of medicinal plants they presumably took to alleviate the discomfort. Gack!

The links are interesting although Carved and Drawn Prehistoric Maps of the Cosmos seems a bit speculative for 'Space today.' Where the heck did he get the idea that the figure on the bone represents the Orion constellation? What's all this?

The sword, which may hang between the legs of the figure on the ivory tablet, might correspond with a feature of the Orion constellation.

Link as above.

What were swords made of 35000ya? If there's anything swinging between the figure's legs..it's probably something else Looking at Rappengleuk's own site, he seems a bit speculative. I'm thinking of an unpopular 6letter word..begins with F.

It seems some guys need to assume that early humans were incapable of basic astronomy or that they were identifying constellations and charting their progress through the heavens. Somewhere in between those extremes is the probability that they were aware of patterns in the stars and maybe their position over seasons.

There are dots in Lascaux that count the days of the moon cycle and it's believed that they may have had a significance with the menstrual cycle. They almost certainly were aware of Sirius, moon and sun solstices.

Anyway, I won't go on. Check out the amazing history of Chauvet-Pont-d'Arc Cave. It's a great site and not a million miles from Lascaux.

Again good post and a S&F

Why do we not accept that stone age man/woman couldn't work out the patterns in the sky.

because that is adding new factual evidences in favor of the theory that we are not the first advanced human civilization and that those cavemen were survivors of very advanced civilizations that have been destroyed somehow.

this theory means rewriting prehistory and putting back to question too many concept&ideas for the inteligentsia; beside i believe that the PTB doesn't find this possibility politically correct

those who hold power (whatever the power) don't like too much to change paradigm

[edit on 16-6-2009 by ::.mika.::]

The grunting knuckle dragging cave man is a myth that still populates the public conscious.
However, scientists have known for awhile now that ancient man was intelligent, the original skeleton that supported the myth was found to have been riddled with arthritis, which helped to show actually that for such a person to survive he had to have been cared for.
Which implies culture. Aside from that, it was found that our ancestors only rarely living in caves. They were primarily nomadic, which means that they would have used caves sparingly, and they may have had a sacred sense to them as well, based on the cave paintings we find.

reply to post by RuneSpider

I agree about using caves sparingly. I remember reading that the caves at Chauvet were littered with the bones of bears that didn't survive hibernation. It's reasonable to assume that humans weren't occupying the caves or the bears would probably have found somewhere else. Conversely, how many people would be in a hurry to enter a cave system known to contain sleeping bears? I guess 'natural selection' and Darwinism took care of the few that thought they'd 'nip in and stay out of the rain...' Famous last words

(Edit for extra detail) Just checked to see what bears they were...Cave Bear. That's a fairly large character. Males weighing around a 1000lb with females around 800lb. The size of large polar bears! No messing with them...

Chauv et Cave bears:from cave paintings to genomics analysis

Bears and humans in Chauvet Cave (Vallon-Pont-d'Arc, Ardèche, France)

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Kandinsky]

Originally posted by 2theC
reply to post by pluckynoonez

 

well, yes in a way. we use the term in a derogatory sense.
But hey how do we know how they smelt?? Or what they looked like either.
They could have been sweet smelling, intelligent, sexy, skin wearing retro sexuals!
We can maybe start to see them from the inside out, by looking at their outside in.

[edit on 15-6-2009 by 2theC]

No... Gieco uses the term in a derogatory sense...

I use the term to refer to MEN who lived in CAVES...

reply to post by 2theC


The peoples of ancient America and ancient Egypt did know about precession, a process that takes 25,800 years to complete. They had to be watching the stars for a long time to figure that one out.

Also, the more they find out about the Neanderthals, the more sophisticated they are.

I don't find it odd at all that these cave-dwelling humans would be able to figure things out just like us -- seeing that they are as smart as us.

Stone Age people were modern humans, just like us. Their brains are for all practical purposes exactly the same as our brains.

The only advantage we have over them is that we have written languages and good record-keeping that allows each generation to build upon the learnings of the past generations.

However, Stone Age people were modern humans just like us, and just as capable as us to have a "mental epiphany" or make "logical leaps" about the world and universe around them


[edit on 6/16/2009 by Soylent Green Is People]

alot of what some of the others have said has made me also think, when we see their lack of "technology" we think that we are greater because we can manipulate things to how we want but actually there are much more intelligent ways of manipulating it by actually going with the flow of nature and working with it, why kill what you need to live, surely thats not intelligent to destroy what you need to survive. Also since we are so aquainted with technology and have everything given to us and fed to us constantly we forget what everything else is like and so we our tiny little crack in the blinds view of the world is litrally that and we can only see the slit of light rather than the blinding relentlessness of infinity.

its pretty easy to proove how much we know and it goes like this.

take society away and put people out into a desert or a forest and see what happens and suddenly i bet you a million pounds they wished they learnt more and realise how little society has actually taught them.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by steven barnes]

Another theory entirely is that cavemen were not normal, functioning members of society. They were possibly outcasts, banned to outer parts of established cities and towns. If you think about it, it's plausible. Considering who was thought to be bonkers (intelligent people, scientists, et cetera) it could make sense.

I have no evidence or anything, it's just a theory someone told me.

Great thread. What we know is that around 35,000 years ago something changed in the human species and we have remained pretty much the same since then. What actually caused this change is the mystery. Some say alien DNA doctoring, some say that written communication itself caused the change among many other theories.

What might seem to hold the clues, is the cave paintings of the type seen in the first post.
We have half man/ half animal creatures (much like the gods of the ancient religions).
Images of men being killed by many spears.

Pictures of shamans climbing ropes and entering craft/clouds.
Strange hand prints like this...

www.bookofjoe.com...

These paintings were done in total darkness, through confined and hard to reach tunnels, sometimes by tribes and small groups that seemed to have travelled large distances just to be at the caves for a small time. In hunter gatherer cultures this must have been pretty important to take time off survival. Also these paintings are seen again and again to have the same themes.

In short I am suggesting that the means of humankind's introduction to culture and science, was through altered states of consciousness around 35,000 years ago. The first contact with our "gods".
The cave paintings depict these.

All the previous things mentioned seen in such caves are corrobarated by stories in the present day. For example to often mentioned alien abduction....


We have half man/ half animal creatures - Shapeshifting creatures and chimera crossbreeds are a concurrant theme of alien abduction.
Images of men being killed by many spears - Alien abductees often say they are operated on and injected, in some rare cases being totally cut apart and the frequent stories about bone counting aliens. Also in religion we have numerous tales of Saints being stabbed by angelic spears and swords before being enlightened.
Pictures of shamans climbing ropes and entering craft/clouds. Alien abducties and astral flyers often talk about a "silver rope" that they float or climb on to reach the astral planes. The floating UFO like craft are self explanitory.
The handprints?


www.bookofjoe.com...

........the image of a human aura?

scio4health.co.za...(1).jpg

And this is just touching the surface of this stuff! The implications!

If they were painting constellations as animals ans what have you, then you should find that they were ancient astrologers, not ancient astronomers. They didn't percieve the wider universe, they were limited to what they could see.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Welfhard]

reply to post by SolarDeity


Absolutely wonderful! You put it in such simple terms. It's so easy to see yet some will deny it as heresy till the end. The bible doesn't lie, Jesus IS the son/sun. Of course John the Baptist's head was cut off! It makes perfect sense once you realize he represents the Aquarius zodiac.

Suddenly, when presented with the notion that it is all really just code for the procession of the equinoxes, it all makes perfect sense! I find it exciting. Others will find it of the devil of course. Ever notice how the Old Testament is completely against studying these types of knowledges: Astronomy, Metallurgy, etc.? Don't eat from the tree of KNOWLEDGE! These things are supposed to be of the devil.

Take Greek Mythology for example:

Isaac Newton was reported to be an alchemist. He believed that Greek Mythology was actually recipes for alchemy. The story of the Smith-God Vulcan catching Venus (his wife) with her lover Mars. So he traps them in the act after creating a bronze net so that people could see them humiliating them.

These Gods, when translated into elements respectively are: Fire, Gold, and Iron. Combine those elements together and you get a purple alloy that has a netted surface (like Vulcan's bronze(copper) net.

Once again, it all makes perfect sense once you realize that those in power did not want the "little people" learning these things otherwise they would no longer be able to keep them oppressed. You can't oppress the wise. They are too smart for that.

A dumbed down nation is the best for those who are power hungry.

The only thing even our own societies "allow" us to study are literature (but only the one's that are acceptable) and science (but well within in confines that have been set. Step outside of those confines and you'll be the laughing stock of the science community).

We are dumbed down with crap on TV and cool little tech toys (or bribed as George Carlin said). The only thing society ever improves on is Science (once again, only within certain confines), technology, and medicine (which is also a shadow of what it should really be if we knew what the things nature provided us could really do for our health).

I know this may seem off topic, but it isn't. As soon as you realize these things stated, you will see that our history HAS been kept from us.

It's a tragedy really. One that makes me sad and angry at the same time.

Here we have people who existed long before civilization began and they perhaps knew more about our universe than we ever have. The problem probably arose when a group of them desired ultimate power and somehow realized that by preventing them from expanding their knowledge in these areas they could gain even more power.

And here we are thinking these guys and gals were nothing but a small step from monkeys who couldn't even speak or clean themselves. I've never felt right about that, ever since I was a kid. It's so disrespectful when you get down to it.

But, the good news is, I believe we will slowly but surely start to realize they weren't at all the stupid, stinky savages we've made them out to be.

I think it's only natural for the secrets of the universe to start unfolding once we break the chains that have been placed on REAL knowledge.

Thanks OP! S & F

Thanks for the contributions!

I guess the thing that stood out to me was that while watching the documentary I realised the huge significance of the theory that this woman was coming up with.
One that would have us re-examining who we are and where we come from. Because regardless of what a few of us know, I think that we are programmed to think that nothing of any importance happened to humanity until we farmed the land.
That until then, we were savages, and in some way that wasn't us anyway.
(look at all the peoples of the world who still practiced their lives this way and the way they have been treated)

When in the film as she was getting closer to really solidifying her hypothesis they closed the cave at Lascaux for good, even to her, it almost rang of a conspiracy to finding out some truth. It was a shock.

Astronomy or Astrology, maybe both. But its seems to be getting clear that our ancestors mapped the heavens to navigate through the seasons and life itself.
That to me is something that we should be putting some emphasis on to re examine who we actually are.
I think we all feel something is missing back there.

reply to post by 2theC

Astronomy or Astrology, maybe both. But its seems to be getting clear that our ancestors mapped the heavens to navigate through the seasons and life itself.

That's astrology. But it is significant all the same, it tells us that religious thought was developing earlier than we thought. Previously it was believed that the development of agriculture brought about religion and astronomy because they were thought to be linked to the seasonal crops.

One thing that I know has been noted by anthropologists is that the movements of the moon have always been very important to prehistoric man because it allowed them to hunt at night. Women's monthly cycles and the near-monthly cycles were believed to linked. Than in addition with woman being the ones who gave birth made them very important, naturally.

reply to post by Majestic23
These guys weren't painting the images in total darkness...think about it..how could they? They used torches to see in the darkness. They had expert woodcraft knowledge and would know which wood gives off the least smoke. Juniper ash has been found...

For most caves, portable lights were used, most likely in the form of torches. To infer what method was used for lighting, let our attention fall on another Paleolithic cave, Altamira. As with Lascaux, bones were left near the cave walls. Although Breuil suggested that the bones, filled with bone marrow, blood, resins were used to bind the pigment to the wall, scholar Matilde Muzquiz Perez-Seoane suggests that in fact the marrow was used for lighting. A clay pot or bone holding marrow could use a plant fiber for a wick. Her studies indicated that these “torches” did not produce soot, which would have harmed the paintings over time, but the flame was somewhat unstable. The use of at least three torches would provide a steady glow to work by.

Prehistoric Art

Also...

The prehistoric men of Lascaux made use of lamps with tallow, the ones nonworked, the others worked. The first, found in great number on the site, are generally of vulgar stones limestones to concave face dug of a natural basin; visible traces of ashes, soot, coal and rubéfaction attest of their use at ends of lighting. The seconds are extremely rare; of the two witnesses delivered by Lascaux, there remains only one lamp today, left roaster machine in the shape of racket, finely cut in pink sandstone. In addition to the lamps, Magdaléniens de Lascaux undoubtedly used torches and fires of lighting.

Caves of Lascaux

'Altered states of conscious' were probable. Humans have a tradition of using psychotropics going back thousands of years and modern isolated tribes continue he practice. The question you need to ask, is how could hallucinations provide advances in science? Improving stone tools or hunting methods would come from trial and error.

Hand prints like the ones you link are found across Europe and Africa and look that way due to the means of creation. The artist would chew ochre and ash until he had a mouthful of red 'paint.' Then he would blow it across his hand and create the shapes you see. Resourceful fellas...and their breath after this must have smelled wonderful