Originally posted by Night Watchman


Here is the problem. I have stated that I have no doubt that the US is engaged covertly in Iran, just as NK, China, Russia and others are. This is not a surprise.

That the US dealt with the Iranian govt at a time in which Mousavi was Prime Minister proves nothing with regard the claim that the US is behind the demonstrations in Iran now.

Please understand, I am not dismissing that possibility completely but rather I am taking exception with those who claim to know for certain that what is happening in Iran is nothing more than a US operation.

My point has been that there was enough evidence that the Iranian population, or at least a significant demographic has been growing increasingly unhappy living under the rule of a Islamic Fundamentalist Government. It is entirely possible that this election was the tipping point for them.

- Cheney re-hired Ghorbanifar in 2006 to be the USA's "man on the ground" in Iran.
- A few months before that, Ghorbanifar said he had a plan to remove the Iranian theocracy.
- He met with high ranking members of the DOD numerous of over the preceeding 5 years and discussed said plans.
- He was the key middleman in the Iran-Contra deal, during which time he became quite well known to a lot of people who would later form the Bush admin.
- Prior to that, he was head of European intel for Mousavi.

That's a pretty clear link. He had the contacts, he had the stated ambition, and he had the positioning and support of the DoD. What more do you need to accept that it's something more than an outside chance that this has been orchestrated?

Originally posted by vox2442


That's a pretty clear link. He had the contacts, he had the stated ambition, and he had the positioning and support of the DoD. What more do you need to accept that it's something more than an outside chance that this has been orchestrated?

Do you contest the information regarding the unrest of the Iranian people? Do you disagree that the educated Iranians desperately wanted a regime change?

What more do you need to accept that it is likely that this election was a tipping point for the citizens of Iran?

By your own words, the US has been engaged in Iran for some time...why has this possible revolt happened now? If this was a US Operation, why not bring this about years ago...especially while the Bush-Cheney Administration was still in power?

Originally posted by Night Watchman
Do you contest the information regarding the unrest of the Iranian people? Do you disagree that the educated Iranians desperately wanted a regime change?

What more do you need to accept that it is likely that this election was a tipping point for the citizens of Iran?

By your own words, the US has been engaged in Iran for some time...why has this possible revolt happened now? If this was a US Operation, why not bring this about years ago...especially while the Bush-Cheney Administration was still in power?

1) There is unrest in Iran. I don't contest that. I question who managed it from the beginning. I don't think anyone is managing it now - it's running on it's own steam - but it is fairly limited by most accounts. Someone set it in motion though.

2) I contest that "educated Iranians" as a group desperately wanted regime change - because the classification you've chosen there is so broad-based it has virtually no meaning. The clerics who run the show, for example, are very well educated.

3) Prove that it was. It has certainly been a tipping point for some, but not likely for others. My contention is that - as with all tipping points - someone was in place to give it a push. And that person had American backing.

4) Because the election is now. The last presidential election was in 2005. Shortly after that, the main events I've described were set into motion.

The plan, as alluded to, was to overthrow the theocracy. Those are not my words, they're the words of the man Cheney tapped shortly after to work Iran on the US's behalf.

There are a number of similar situations in recent memory - the Orange Revolution springs to mind, the failed Venezuelan coup that was documented in "the revolution will not be televised" also comes to mind. These operations have been shown to have been stage managed in a similar way. A relatively bloodless, populist coup. Install a friendly government.

[edit on 16-6-2009 by vox2442]

Originally posted by Night Watchman

Originally posted by audas


Of course the original post is correct - I am GOBSMACKED that you would even bother posting such ignorance.

The original post is not "correct," it is, just like your attempt to support it, a lame attempt to pass off speculation as fact.

The fact that you seem to believe that providing information that the US was active in Iran working with opposition parties is some sort of breaking news suggests that you aren't very well versed on international politics.

The US, China, Russia and many other nations have operatives in key countries. Is this surprising to you? Your problem is that you are attempting to take this elementary level information and attempting to connect the dots from there to a place where the US is behind the demonstrations happening in Iran.

As my friends have told me (and many other exPats have written and said similar things) the seeds of unrest were planted years ago. If you would not limit your research to conspiracy websites you could easily find much written about the growing disenchantment on the part of a large segment of the Iranian population. If you weren't so intent on seeing the world in strictly black and white terms, you might begin to understand nuance.

Some of you seemingly cannot function unless you can assign every world event to either the evil US (or allies) or the NWO.

Real life isn't like that.

As I have mentioned in other posts, I don't have a problem with speculation. I do have a problem when posters (such as the OP) attempt to portray their speculation as indisputable fact.

I have a Masters in International Relations AND Contemporary Political Theory - so I think I can speak with a high degree of certainty that your above comments are so far off the mark that they are complete garbage -

My THREE posts all provided CONCRETE links to numerous articles and videos showing the CLEAR intention of the US to involve itself in Iran to SPECIFICALLY influence the outcome of the the Iranian election - SPECIFICALLY via the CIA -

Further my research has concentrated on the primary focus of the CIA over the past half century as a specialist in subversive activity in manipulating the outcomes of elections, coups, uprisings and above all propaganda in western hemispheres to maintain domestic support for foreign covert activities -

Your attempts to smear me with intellectual hubris are therefore rebutted, my arguments reaffirmed and you now thoroughly discredited for your disingenuous approach through smear.

One can see faeces, smell faeces and even taste faeces without having to step in it to know what it is - the CIA's specific mandate is regime change and propaganda - the CIA has been involved in Iran THREE times, they have been given $400 million for this exact operation, have OPENLY admitted they would be carrying out THIS operation - almost ALL foreign affairs are currently centred around Iran for the past five years and yet you so flippantly and obstinately declare it can not be without concrete proof -

Yazdi a leading reformist and supporter of Mousavi is a CIA operative - now once you have READ AND LOOKED AT MY EVIDENCE - you can track down this little gem -
Cheers.
audas.

Originally posted by audas

I have a Masters in International Relations AND Contemporary Political Theory - so I think I can speak with a high degree of certainty that your above comments are so far off the mark that they are complete garbage -

If you truly have a Masters in International and Contemporary Political Theory (by the way does your Masters actually have the "AND," capitalized???) then it makes your willingness to state speculation as fact all the more alarming.

There is no doubt that the US wants a regime change in Iran. You keep raising that strawman as a diversion. You can keep arguing a point of non contention to your heart's content, I suppose, but I'm not sure toward what end you do so.

If all it took to bring about the kind of events we have seen the past few days is US involvement then this would have happened years ago. If you are truly as educated as you claim to be then you would be aware of the rising anger of the Iranian population over the past decade or so. If you understood the dynamics involved in the country then you would allow that there is a possibility that the election has brought about action that the Iranian people have been moving toward for some time.

Yet, you wish to falsely claim as fact, your BELIEF that the US has orchestrated this uprising.

This is surprising given your level of of education.

Originally posted by Night Watchman

Originally posted by audas

I have a Masters in International Relations AND Contemporary Political Theory - so I think I can speak with a high degree of certainty that your above comments are so far off the mark that they are complete garbage -

If you truly have a Masters in International and Contemporary Political Theory (by the way does your Masters actually have the "AND," capitalized???) then it makes your willingness to state speculation as fact all the more alarming.

There is no doubt that the US wants a regime change in Iran. You keep raising that strawman as a diversion. You can keep arguing a point of non contention to your heart's content, I suppose, but I'm not sure toward what end you do so.

If all it took to bring about the kind of events we have seen the past few days is US involvement then this would have happened years ago. If you are truly as educated as you claim to be then you would be aware of the rising anger of the Iranian population over the past decade or so. If you understood the dynamics involved in the country then you would allow that there is a possibility that the election has brought about action that the Iranian people have been moving toward for some time.

Yet, you wish to falsely claim as fact, your BELIEF that the US has orchestrated this uprising.

This is surprising given your level of of education.

There is considerable evidence put forward on my behalf and others to back up my claims - you have not addressed this, instead continue to attack my person - strange ?

No one is doubting that the country has issues, as does every country, every election has opposition - this is the point of elections. Civil unrest is of course also part of this - what is being pointed out is the VERY FACT that the CIA has explicity stated it intends to cause disruption at these elections with funds provided by congress for this purpose - UM which part of this are you missing - all of it ?

Take the time to read what others have offered, the posts and information put up and desist in your attacks on my person - your not qualified - and yes there is an AND as they are TWO different subjects.....

By the way - if you had read the articel 50 foreign AGENTS have now been arrested......

cheers.

Originally posted by audas

Take the time to read what others have offered, the posts and information put up and desist in your attacks on my person - your not qualified - and yes there is an AND as they are TWO different subjects.....

By the way - if you had read the articel 50 foreign AGENTS have now been arrested......

cheers.

Ok a couple of points.

First, if you are going to characterize me (or anyone) as unqualified, then you ought to be more precise in word selection. Nit picky? Yes but when one is presenting himself as intellectually superior, there is a level of expectation, no?

So for your future reference, the correct word to be used in place of "your," would be the contraction for "you are," which is, "you're."

As for the 50 foreign agents, can you explain how this news supports your speculation??? Or have you already decided that 1) the report is accurate and 2) They are US agents?

It's too bad Conclusion Jumping isn't an Olympic event or you'd be the hands on favorite to bring home the gold

EDIT - By the way, the al Jazeera link you provided does not contain any information of the alleged arrest...is there another link?

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Night Watchman]

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OK....

No more posts about other members...

PLEASE Stay on Topic...

Semper

Iran has been a mess for three decades. The 'average' Iranian is not very different from the 'average' American or Britain. They are educated, intelligent folk and no more the in favor of the actions of the government than we are of ours.

The CIA could be responsible for the instability, but more than likely they are like a kid with asthma trying to stoke a bonfire. Moreover, instability in Iran is not harming the overall picture in the Middle East and if the reform party takes over it might improve it.