NKorea steps up rhetoric amid nuclear crisis

Ahh screw the nutcase little creep.

Whatever happened to assasination?

Surely it's easier to either 'persuade' someone close to him or one of our agents near to him just to bump the little prick off?

NOONE is that secure that they cannot be gotten to...noone.

Not a president, not a monarch, not a religious leader...with enough planning, determination and resources, and a smattering of luck, any person on the face of this planet can be 'gotten out of the way'.

Surely that is better that the threat of war...NK has one of the largest convensional armies in the world by the way...if it's taking US and UK armed forces 6 years and counting to get the better of a poorly equipped and relatively 'ragtag' 'insurgency' in Iraq and Afganistan, think what going upo against the worlds largest conventional army, never mind nukes!

No, bump off the heirarchy, make it look like an accident if possible or blame it on another 'hostile' country...

So with little Kimmy renouncing the truce which ended the 1950-1953 Korean War does that mean NK has basically declared War again? And if that is the case does that mean we would have a legal right in the UN to hit them without UN approval?

reply to post by CaptGizmo


Who knows...

But we'd better make really sure the majority of the world, including either Russia or China or both are onboard too...if not things will get nasty, very quickly.

Iraq was one thing...NK is a totally different kettle of nutcases.

reply to post by LeaderOfProgress


Maybe North Korea is the pawn for someone else so they can be justified in attacking whoever... need to watch this close folks.

reply to post by spikey

I agree we should only go in if we have to and with a coalition ...which with some of the statement from Russia and China regarding NK lately....it seems they are warming up to the idea perhaps. That is if sanctions don't work.

It is funny to me that some one brought up the "pawn" theory. If you want some real dirt on North Korea, then start researching Russia's involvment in both their economic standing and their political system. Russia's hands are very deep in the cookie jar when it comes to North Korea's entire existence.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
We gave them enough rope to hang themselves with. We made several gestures to help direct this situation in a peacfull manner.

How? They had inspections that checked their facilities and installed camera's? Why do you think they decided to go ahead with breaking the inspections negotiations/settlements only AFTER the US invaded Iraq despite one and all knowing that there probably wasn't going to be any WOMD and non being found? How Is North Korea to blame for getting the message and hoping that actually having WOMD might prevent the US from invading? How is invading two nations evidence that the US government wished to resolved anything peacefully?

Last year we went to the extent of removing them from the "terror" list and this is their response. The threat of force came from them first.

Maybe because they never deserved to be on the terror list? How can you claim that they are the threatening power when it's the US that have bases all around them and staging two occupations as we speak? How can it be said that a reasonable nation so threatened would not behave in exactly this way?

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
North Korea was shown to be funneling money for terrorist ventures across the globe.

Where? I mean i know the US government and others claims this but where is the actual evidence that they do anything other than trade in weapons? As for funneling money are we forgetting the Iran-contra affair or the long list of terrorist and dictators the US national security state has funneled money to? If you can provide proof ( well the proof they cited) i think it would be most interesting to see which 'side' where funding national independence movements and which side were , again, funding the same old dictators and puppets the US did for much of the last century.

This is what landed them on the "terror" list. All that we did by putting them on the list is turn more focus on them in order to see events before they unfold.

What landed them on the 'terror' list were the fact that they wishes to stay independent whereas South Korea were are occupied by a foreign military force to this day. Resisting imperialism is what gets you in the 'terror' list.

This right here states that even sanctions could be deemed a just cause for offensive action against a sanctioning nation. This is an out right threat. No matter how you try to twist this into a "Bad America" scenario you will fail.

They have been under sanctions for half a century and they have not resorted to war to resolve the blatant criminality of the countries who sponsored it. North Korea is not what i would wish the world to turn into but to paint it as 'evil' and the US ( the country who is actually invading others) 'good' makes a mockery of both common sense and reality as we know it. The US proposed blockading and searching North Korea ships and that is the sort of act that the North Korean government were talking about when they said 'provocation'. There are very few nations that do not consider boarding and searching of ships under their sales to be act of war so the North Koreans would be well within their international rights ( which according to you they somehow don't have) to act on such a outrage.

This time the US has it's ducks in a row and is playing it's cards right.

Yes , in terms of having isolated North Korea and basically starved it's people into submission for wanting to be independent it has most certainly played it's cards right. In terms of creating peace and reunification on the Korean peninsula it has failed as utterly ( presuming it tried to make peace when we can see it has not) as it did in the middle east.

We are and have been trying peacful negotiations with NK but yet they refuse to take part.

There were no peaceful negotiations with Iraq before any of the Gulf wars or the sanctions or with Afghanistan in 2001. In fact the US can rarely be seen to negotiate in good faith and even then it seems to be in the interest of creating alliances to attack a nation that refuses to submit to total western corporate capitalist economic exploitation. Fact is that just like the US Israel is sufficiently well armed to come to enforce a mutually beneficial compromise but since it refuses to compromise on anything it's done or plans to do in the future it just goes on relying on terrorism ( killing a hundred Palestinians for each Israel) to take by force what no free person would give up without a fight.

It is the worlds responsibility to not allow oppresive regimes like the one in NK to obtain the ability to oppress more people.

There is no world government so there are no global responsibilities beside those a few imperialist nations entitle themselves too. There is no mandate for any country to demand of others to disarm themselves while they are arming themselves with all manner of weapons. To demand that North Korea disarms itself while the US invades others and to use that increasing self defense capability as a reason for invasion stands reality on it's head by confusing cause for effect and selling is a gospel.

The North Koreans are arming themselves in self defense and they have never employed those weapons to do anything but defend themselves probably understanding that it will likely be insufficient in even defending their country. Why can't the North Koreans have learnt lessons from Iraq? How it's massive relatively well armed forces where swept away? Isn't it just projection when US citizens imagines that all countries of the world will use their weapons to attack as many countries as the US have when the record indicates the opposite?

Containment is an acceptable option. Should we interfere with their culture? No not unless they are trying to jack with other nations way of life.

The American way of life is not the most 'free', the 'safest' or the best endowed when it comes to purchasing power so why this almost obsessive belief that everyone either wants to be you or kill you in 'jealous' fits? Why don't they focus their hatred on all the countries that are more free&liberal and nowhere near as well defended? Isn't it even remotely possibly that they are just scared to death of suffering the same fate they did fifty years ago? Wouldn't you be?

The problem is that corporate capitalism can not leave any country alone as by implementing different socio-economic models it sets a example for all the rest of the unhappy people of the world to follow. This is why all alternative social models must be destroyed or warped into these twisted forms by constant capitalist propaganda economic exploitation&isolation ,terrorism and the sometimes invasions and occupations.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
Very simple the intricacies of the modern power grids and information technologies make them a very devastating blow to our way of life if attacked. Lives can and will be lost if our networks and power grids are attacked.

All things that could have come under attack from the USSR/Russia in the last fifty years. The fact that the US government stalwartly refused to rebuild it's energy/transport infrastructure to cope with the potential attacks from a nuclear rival shows it's utter lack of interest in protecting the modern way of life it claims to be exporting. To leave yourself unprotected at home while you build offensive weapons is the mark of a imperialist, not that of a nation acting in self defense.

This is just stating the obvious. Attack the US and the US will attack you. Why would that be a bad move on the US's part?

In fact it's obvious that the US will attack nations that never threatened to attack the US or even nations that never had the means. It is a rogue state that will disregard the voices of people of the world to do exactly what it thinks it can to further the economic dominance of the corporate capitalist system.

Stellar

Originally posted by DOADOA

Originally posted by Karlhungis
reply to post by misfitoy

 

The North Korean people only get info from the government. They are completely isolated and they worship their leader as a living god. They have been indoctrinated into hating the US. I would be surprised if there were many North Koreans that didn't echo the sentiment of the statement.

and we here in the US are blessed with a wonderful government that do not force feed us BS. nicely stated.

you are right with that......but at least we have the choice and the liberty to research it you self on the net exemple:ats....

just for fun.....how many NK people are here today...?????

any NK in the audience...????...?????

Originally posted by Karlhungis
We went into Iraq, forced a regime change, executed their leader and killed scores of people because we "had intelligence" that said he had WMD's and might use them. Now we have a mad man that has not only shown that he 100% has WMD's, but has openly threatened to use them if we so much as look at them and we aren't doing anything about it.

Things are getting curiouser and curiouser.

Reply to post by LeaderOfProgress

Are any other major key players backing north korea?
I know russian and china are on our side in this.
ever seen that episode of souther park where they blow finland off the map for threatening to tell the aliens? I have a feeling this might be Norht Korea's fate if they continue


Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by misfitoy
So when these articles say "North Korea said..." exactly 'whom' are they referring to? Is this another way of saying Kim and his buddies say, or does the majority of North Korea feel this way and support this kind of attitude?

Sorry, but this has to be one of the most naive posts ever on ATS.

You actually think NK is some sort of democracy where anyone but Kim and his minions have a say in national policy - or anything for that matter?

"Kim and his buddies" control absolutely everything in NK.

Naive? It was a simple question. I don't live anywhere near NK, nor do I know much about them. Asking questions is how one learns things. How wonderful for you that you were born with all the vast knowledge of the world. Feel free to overlook my 'naive' questions in the future.

Thank you to those who took the time to post informative and considerate answers, your contribution helps to keep people informed as this NK situation unfolds.

reply to post by skeetontheconspiracy


How sure are you that they are on our side? Just because they give the facade that they are does not mean that their actions do not tell a different story. Russia is not on our side. China maybe but not Russia.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
Come on we all know why those nations have nuclear capabilities. Some of them are allies and can be trusted others developed the technology at a time in which no one could do anything to stop them from it.

So we can trust Israel, Pakistan and India never to use their nuclear weapons to stave of the attacks they are inviting by their own aggressive actions? What makes any of the nuclear powers essentially different from North Korea other than the fact that you will believe only the worse things said about North Korea?

We now can stop the proliferation of WMDs and rightfully should if the nation trying to develop the technology is a rogue nation that treats its people with no dignity at all.

There are plenty of nations where people are treated with no dignity at all ( yes, far , far worse than Iraq and even Afghanistan) and i do not see the US government invading them or asking for sanctions there. Why claim that North Korea is involved in the proliferation of WOMD when that is far from proven? Want to see what Israel and Pakistan's records are like? Why this ridiculous hypocrisy over the very North Korea that has not invaded anyone since the Korean war? In fact if you wish we can discuss who really started the Korean war too!

NK is a bad place. No one argues that but yet you try to compare them to the US. There is no comparison.

A 'bad place'? How old are you? Admittedly i wouldn't want to live there but how did the very nation that were partially responsible ( trough sanctions) for the starvation get the right to claim the moral high ground? There IS no comparison between the two nations but that is so due to the fact that unlike the United States of America North Korea isn't a imperialist nation with along track record of invading and occupying other nations to further it's control over the world economy.

No because we were not threatening to attack them in any manner until we were threatened. Big differerence.

WASHINGTON, DC—During a recent press conference, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice issued another warning to North Korea, escalating the U.S. empty-threat campaign against the nation. "Make no mistake, if Kim Jong Il does not put a stop to the manufacturing of plutonium in his nation, we will come down on him quite hard," Rice said. "We demand compliance, and if we don't get it, then watch out." Rice went on to say that noncompliance would result in some action that "would be very bad indeed," adding that North Korea does not want to know what it will be in for.

www.theonion.com...

And you can find a dozen statements like that , or worse, if you spent more than the two minutes i just did.

www.zmag.org...

Fact is North Koreans still probably remember the first round of the Korean war when the US air force dropped three million litre's of napalm on North Korea between june and october 1950 destroying villages, towns and cities in the process. There were talk of using Nuclear weapons even back then but since Napalm worked quite well without the radiation they didn't go that far. Why would the US have to threaten the explicit use of Nuclear weapons again when it proved it would use them on a prostrate nation that Japan was by August 1946? Where has even the 'crazy' North Korean leaders ever said that they would just attack if they did not get others to comply with their wishes to give up their national independence? Which nation has so far proved that, by many invasions and occupations and countless assassinations and bombings, it cares naught for the independence of other people's and nations?

You are just trying to make the US look bad still. Why do you hate the US so bad? How are they doing by you wrong?

We don't have to try to make the US 'look bad' as everyone who actually study history has managed to figure this out. Why do 'we' have to 'hate' the US when we are just pointing out the terrible crimes it has commited against the many hundreds of millions it didn't kill in all it's wars of the last half century?

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
No NK is saying do anything even place santions and they might use nukes. There is alot of difference.

Sanctions are already in place and they didn't nuke anyone over that. North Korea knows well enough what the US is capable of and will not condemn itself to a Korean war round two until there is no other route to survival open to them. In fact after rebuilding that country from the heap of ash that the USAF left i am quite certain that the last thing on the minds of kim is to spend a few years in caves, as his father did, to escape the power of the USAF.

One is deffensive the other is NK acting like a child that isn't getting it's way.

North Korea is not the nation that refuses to accept the existence of the USA; it's the other way round and for the same reason the US has chosen to treat Cuba as if it does not exist.

Why would you defend such an awfull regime like NK?

Because we understand that what the US will bring during the 'war' to 'liberate' it and the 'occupation' afterwards might be as bad or worse with no prospects for recovery? Why do you see our attack on the imperialist US foreign police as 'evidence' that we support or like Kim? Have you ever wondered what sort of people would reach power in the US during and after a war that lays waste much of your country? The legitimate fear everyone will have towards other potential foreign enemies and how those fears can be abused to suppress domestic dissent? How did the death of only three thousand American citizens yield something as odious as the patriot act while you insist that North Korean ( which were subjected to years of fire bombing resulting in millions of casualties ) society should be free&open? Why are nations under continues US threat expected to maintain whatever freedoms they wished to have against the systematic CIA infiltration and bombing campaigns ( see Eastern Germany, Cuba etc) that has become a hallmark of US imperialism?

You seem to think it is a human rights thing. Okay then we should invade them just off of that then. How many people are starving just so they can threaten with nukes? Once again why do you keep trying to make the US look bad?

Because it is 'bad', horrible does not begin to describe what the US foreign policy has done to the people of this planet in the last half century. Debates about what 'communism' might have done is moot as it was 'communism' ( in the few instances that it wasn't just nationalist/ independence movements) that was continuously threatened with the interventionist and powerful western countries who committed, or created, the majority of crimes against people's in other countries.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
All that we were originally trying to do is keep the spread of nuclear weapons under control. By using sanctions we were not inviting war.

The US government have no independent mandate to keep the 'spread of nuclear weapons under control' and given the fiasco in Iraq can not be trusted when it claims such as it's purpose. By using sanctions against any nation with the capacity to defend itself one is in fact inviting retaliation. The fact that the victims of the US national security state can not often prevent themselves from being subjected to sanctions hardly changes the fact that that any nation with the power would react with whatever military or diplomatic means it has at it's disposal. Sanctions and blockades ARE declarations of war made on those who are so weak that they must accept the sanctions for fear of suffering even worse consequences.

Now they are threatening the US and any other country that wants to place sanctions on them. This is them picking a fight.

It's what any self respecting nation would do. Imagine if the USSR tried to blockade the Atlantic and Pacific so as to prevent the USA from trading with Europe and Asia? Would you accept that?

I personally do not like fighting people, none the less killing them, but threaten my family's lives and I will kill to protect them. North Korea is now threatening my family's lives so I say give them war.

Ditto. Only in your self righteous ignorance of history and current affairs you have been propagandized into believing that North Koreans will not do what it takes to defend themselves against those who threaten their very existence.

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
No one threatened deadly force until North Korea did.

You are either very ignorant or a liar.

It was their move in the direction of war that has instigated the US into planning preemptive war planning. It was thier game to lose. Now they will deal with a true threat.

Again you are standing history on it's head blaming North Korea when it has always been the US government that refused to sign a peace treaty thus ending the Korean war and allowing the North Koreans the freedom to be slightly less worried about the US again invading them.

Continued

[edit on 9-6-2009 by StellarX]

Originally posted by LeaderOfProgress
It is funny to me that some one brought up the "pawn" theory. If you want some real dirt on North Korea, then start researching Russia's involvment in both their economic standing and their political system. Russia's hands are very deep in the cookie jar when it comes to North Korea's entire existence.

Russia was never as involved as they should have been in the defense of North Korea ( as unlike the USA they were afraid of starting world war three) and totally abandoned both Cuba and North Korea nearly two decades ago. Russia's hands are NOT very deep in the 'cookie' and it was China that ensured the continued existence of North Korea at a time when the USSR would not( or one can argue could not) spare sufficient air power to truly block the genocidal bombing campaign of the USAF.

People who reason as you do is EXACTLY why North Koreans are rightly afraid of the west; with a few million of your type and the equipment of US armed forces i wouldn't need nuclear weapons. The product of decades or sustained imperialist/capitalist propaganda isn't pretty sight to see and it's irrational hatred and fear of most of the rest of the world will still result in untold suffering and misery.

Stellar

Reply to stellar

North Korea has failed to live up to ANY agreement we have ever entered into since the early 1900's, and although I agree with a few of your positions and basic logic the fact of the matter is if it wasn't for this imperialistic nation you would be typing in German.

Originally posted by Jakes51
I know the Chinese and Russians wouldn't be so thrilled about that option, however; we have to show Kimmy that we mean business! They wanna play the nuke game so we will play right along with them. We'll see who blinks first.

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Jakes51]

[edit on 9-6-2009 by Jakes51]

Would Obama Bendover let this occur however.

That's the real rub. Whats his skin like, thick or thin?

We will soon know, I suppose.

A friend and i have discussed the nk threat for a while now, im only aware of 1 nuke test detonation in nk and that was tiny.
we know they have nukes or had one, do they have resources to make enough for war and how far do i have do go to get out of range.

this shouldn't be left up to obama alone. it's the duty of all nations to keep peace.

i dont know about you but i've had nuke paranoia for years.

reply to post by LeaderOfProgress


Whats the worst thing that can happen, they nuke themselves with their own rickety rocket. I say go for it.

Kim Jong-il's an a attention wh*$#. If the media focuses on something other than him, he cries like a step-child thats starving for attention.

Let-her rip!!

reply to post by total newbie

Desperation breeds balls. NK is an overpopulated, starving country with severe environmental damage which has always been a trigger for Asian countries to fight. I suspect China's current agricultural problems has favored keeping the situation static for this long, some accounts have China being like the Dustbowl on a much bigger scale. It also doesn't help that they have had so many problems with food contamination in the past two years. I still say they are jacking with us, just waiting to see if we will take the bait.

reply to post by Jnewell33

The irony of that statement is that America was predominately of German descent until the demographic shift towards Hispanics. There were more self-identified German-Americans than any other ethnic group in the country until the late 1980s.

Their language isn't pretty but it sure is precise, I enjoyed studying it. You can tell a lot about a nation's character by how it structures its language. Frankly, we need all the Germans we can get right now and not so many goof offs!