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Originally posted by The All Seeing I
Everyone at some point in their lives was at this age, shooting their mouths off. What is arrogantly ignorant is to write off what they say because they are 'kids' and/or 'drunk'.
When you see a five year old kid kick a dog or shout out profanities... do we say "never mind he's just a kid"? If we really genuinely cared about the situation we'd ask ourselves where did s/he learn to do and say such things? ... or do we just conveniently ignore what this inquiry would reveal? ... and then try to insinuate anyone who does care to investigate is a bigot?
Seems to me that this is exactly what took place here in this thread.
[edit on 6-6-2009 by The All Seeing I]
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by Dark Ghost
A couple of questions for you if you don’t mind friend, how would or do you know what the vast majority of Jews would say about the young adults in this video?
Do you conduct scientific opinion polls or is this simply what sounds good to you? I am not saying you are correct, or incorrect in your assumption, but without some hard data to back up your supposition it is simply an assumption that sounds good to you.
I have to be honest and relate to you I have met some middle aged and elderly highly educated and financially successful people from Israel whom I will not even shake hands with or dine with because of the verbiage they use in describing that Palestinians who are indigenous to the region.
I doubt your assumption could be born out by hard researched numbers my friend.
Second question is I take it you have never read the Talmud or Jewish Encyclopedias.
You may want to as both books state clearly Jews can murder non-Jews without offending G-d as long as someone else who isn’t Jewish is either hired to do the killing or tricked into doing the killing.
The appeals you are making are purely emotional one’s friend. The reality on the ground and in books and in history books belies your assertions.
Originally posted by Alxandro
People have been getting drunk since the beginning of time, even Jesus turned water to wine.
Alcohol is a truth serum so we should hear what they have to say.
What is most disturbing about this video is not the slurs, but rather the fact that this is coming from the mouths of the youths from a country that is our ally.
If our allies think Obama is a wuss, what do our enemies think?
Originally posted by Alxandro
reply to post by jd140
Time will tell if Obama turns out to be a wuss.
Bush may have been called a lot of things that never panned out, but he most certainly was never called a wussy by our own allies.
Originally posted by The All Seeing I
So by means of going out of your way to make a grossly inbalanced conflict appear balanced that your adopted position is some how accurate? Talk about self-delusional... in an effort to fool oneself and in the process others.
I need the mirror do i? Here i am taking the details of past and present into consideration in this situation and can clearly see as the majority of the world can see... a racist bully pushing around, beating up and killing off a by far weaker people militarily and economically... all the while crying alligator tears to justify their means of abuse and violence. There is nothing balance about this sinister game being played... to think otherwise is simply a sign of ignorance... now to go out of your way to perpetuate the disinfo ... that stance goes beyond ignorant and should be considered criminal.
Now a question for you. If you truly believe that the citizens of Israel are involved in a systematic, concealed effort to eradicate Palestinians, why has the number of Palestinians increased over the last 60 years? (Read PEOPLE, not settlements.)
That is your opinion. Invariably everybody bases their opinions on emotional reactions from time to time. I have no vested interest in trying to strengthen the reputation of Israel or Jews in general. I just get angered when I see people express opinions that are based off of exaggerated lies. Then other people who join them trying to make it seem more believable. Then seeing these same people label anyone who does not share their opinion as a part of the conspiracy or disinfo agents.
Secondly, real Judaic commandments are based off of the written old testament. These are seen as the direct words from God and contain no opinions from those other than the word of God himself. Nothing in the talmud is considered official because it is not from the mouth of God. So yes, extremist Zionist rabbis who advocate Talmudic teachings as "God's will" are liars and a thorn in the spine of Judaism. They are the ones who cause trouble for Jews and non-Jews.
Actually I have. At my high school, I was forced to do a "religious" based subject in my final years. I had to choose 2 additional religions to learn about, and one of them was Judaism. The Talmud is basically commentary of various rabbis (spiritual readers) on the nature of oral law. The English translation of the texts has been purposely mistranslated by a number of anti-Jewish groups, who use this as a means to attack Judaism and the plausibility of its teachings.
Are your above comments about Israeli millionaires based off of hard researched numbers? Have you been to Israel and conducted surveys confirming that most Israeli's loathe Palestinians and wish to exterminate them?
Yes, I have been unfortunate to meet similar individuals myself. However, now you are interchanging "Israeli" with "Jew" which is an ignorant assumption. There will always be bad people in all religions/cultures/ethnicities - this is not exclusive to Jews.
I would be careful going down this road my friend. If you want to start asking me to prove with scientific evidence every claim I make, I might return the favour. I make my opinions judged on the people I meet and their responses and ideas about these issues. I am not an enlightened individual who knows everything and everyone.
Many of my childhood and teenagehood friends happened to be Jewish. My family were and still are quite friendly with a few Jewish families. They have no desire to murder Palestinians and wish there was peace for both Israel and Palestine in the area. Through these friends, I have also met several Israeli jewish citizens who are all friendly, helpful individuals. They have their negative qualities, but this is comparable to other cultures and people.
Many of these people have also expressed concern at the responses of the Israeli army in recent years (both in Lebanon and Gaza earlier this year).
In almost every one that I meet, they always mention the safety and happiness of their family as their greatest wishes and desires. Emphasis of the family and family friends is strong.
Yes, a few people hold extreme views, but isn't this common in all peoples of the world? And by extreme I don't necessarily mean hateful.
Have I met every single Jew in the world? No I have not. The same as I have not met every single Buddhist or Shinto follower. I base my opinions on the sample of the populous that I have met and exchanged thoughts and ideas with.
Originally posted by Dark Ghost
By balanced I don't mean trying to make a "grossly inbalanced [sic] conflict appear balanced." What I am asking you to do is look at the issue from more than one perspective (i.e. not only from the anti-Zionist view.)
Obviously the fact that the USA gives Israel aid and support angers you from an emotional level.
This does not mean the conflict is unbalanced though. Israel is a country surrounded by enemies that has and will continue to need to defend its region.
Do remember that since its inception, Israel has had threats directed at its existence, often by more than one nation at once. These threats were not based off an attempt to help Palestine or Palestinian individuals, or to address Israel's supposedly inhumane actions. It was to prevent the stability and flourishment of a Jewish country in what these countries thought should be Arab or Muslim only land.
If surrounding countries did indeed care for the concern of Palestinians, they would permit a greater number of Palestinian refugee immigrants. Instead, certain countries use the Palestinian cause as justification for their desire to see Israel condemned and destroyed.
You need a mirror because you are demanding conformity to your own view of reality, and getting annoyed and intolerant when other people (whom share different opinions to yours) ask for the same in return.
So now I am apart of a disinfo agenda that borderlines criminality? Sigh, well I guess sometimes all you can do is laugh.
Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I know the amount of their land holdings has radically decreased over the past 60 years.
As far as the census data on the numbers of actual Palestinians I wouldn’t know which source if any could reflect those numbers accurately.
At the risk of assumption most humans breed like bunny rabbits!
This though is a conspiracy perpetuated by Cuban cigar manufacturers and not any other group!
As I pointed out to my original post in this thread I wouldn’t commit my nation’s military to something a bunch of rowdy drunken under 26 years of age males whose frontal lobes are still misfiring have to say!
I don’t wish to be contrary but obviously you do have a vested interest as you are investing your time to that proposition.
George Burns and John Denver are both dead! I have no idea where anyone ever thinks they have the direct words from G-d.
It is highly circumspect when you say things like thorn in the spine of Judaism, is the thread about the politics of Israel or religion?
Personally I think it works better when Church and State are separate, Israel itself claims to be a secular country and government but clearly it’s not by anyone’s stretch of the imagination who isn’t saying foolish things just to see if there are fools in the audience!
This is interesting, a group of revered and esteemed Rabbis spend a couple centuries debating and formalizing what G-d really meant, since they are presumed intelligent enough to understand that the Old Testament like the New Testament is written as vaguely and confusingly as possible to be used as a political versus a religious tool, and once they translate it, it’s lost in translation!
You are having trouble seeing where some people might see you as a disinformation agent? Do you actually read Hebrew? Or just the English that loads your pens and lips to make such poorly substantiated accusatory statements aimed at minimizing the true extent of the perversions and arrogance that flow out of the Talmud and the Jewish Encyclopedias.
There is a huge difference by the way between the ‘American’ person who says ‘oh yeah I am Jewish, I never really go to the synagogue or read the books or observe the festivals’ and the Zionists who might in fact be Christian as often or not as Jewish and in the case of the founding Zionists who inserted the Israeli State in to the region, agnostics and atheists.
Hebrew Law is very real my friend, and even here in America there are Jewish Courts to deal with discrepancies and accusations amongst Jews when it comes to business and personal affairs.
Can you think of any other class of American Citizen that has a separate Court System just for it, beyond the First Nation’s peoples? (Indigenous American Indians)
Why would I have any need to go to Israel when all Jewish roads lead not to Rome but Miami Beach where I live? Isn’t it great when the mountain comes to you?
I will state no matter how controversially if a person is a Zionist, regardless of their ethnicity or religion then they need to get their butts over there, stay there, and deal with being a nation just the same way someone like Pol Pot of Cambodia has to when everyone the world over says “Hey it’s embarrassing how many people you are killing, time to kill you, we don’t care about the history of the Cambodians, we care about the morality of what you are doing”.
So you can claim as fact the number of Palestinian homes and buildings which have decreased, but you cannot see that the Palestinian population has increased in the last 60 years? What makes you so sure your sources are reliable and accurate?
Your statement is full of ignorance. Again you take a video showing only negative views and bad behaviour to reflect the youth of a whole country. Ever wondered what Egyption teenagers think about Obama and the USA for that matter? Egypt receives a lot of aid from the USA too. Why not do a documentary there and see if you get a more favourable reaction?
Do you really not understand how logically flawed that statement is? Seriously, are you trying to bemuse me? If I have a vested interest in improving the reputation of Israel and Jews in general, then you HAVE a vested interest in deriding the reputation of Israel and Jews. One only has to look through your past posts to see a pattern and agenda at work.
You were the one who first interchanged Israelis/Jews, as I pointed out before. Have a look again at this thread's title. The OP has made a direct reference to young Jews, accusing young JEWS as stating racist anti-Obama views. If you are still not aware that many non-Jews holiday and some even immigrate to the state of Israel, they do! Many non-Jewish Americans go to Israel because the culture of partying and night life is similar. Many religious Christians and Muslims go to Israel because it is a region with highly significant religious institutions.
I agree that Church (synagogue, mosque, temple) and State should be separate. Again you have shown ignorance in your statement. According to Orthodox doctrine, many young Jewish Israelis are breaking commandments often. Eg. Many of the youth do not honour the Sabbath, and do things on the Sabbath that is not permitted under Law (like going out and drinking excessively, using electricity etc..)
Many Israeli Jews do not celebrate the most holy day of the year, and eat pork and bacon on it instead. Many don't celebrate or honour passover. Are these not actions of a secular society? Just because they believe they have the right and freedom to a homeland does not mean they are not secular.
In addition, Israel has a large population of homosexuals. Homosexuality is forbidden by Jewish Orthodox doctrine.
No argument there. No piece of writing from over 2000 years ago will be in its raw, directly accurate form. Also, hasn't civilisation changed quite a lot in the last thousand odd years? Is this not true also of Christianity and Islam? You don't believe that spiritual leaders in these two religions of have done the same, if even worse, manipulations and distortions?
I do not read Hebrew, but I have friends who can. According to them, translation from Hebrew to English is troublesome (English to Hebrew they state is much more simple). The language structure, verb tenses, gender specification and formal word structure is considerably different. As an example, my friend showed me a passage from a prayer book. He told me that the English translations of the text is significantly more formal and authoritative than it is in its original Hebrew form.
Yes, there are passages in the Talmud and Judaic encyclopaedias that assert a sense of Choseness. But it does not go to the extreme that you are implying. I have only seen these in the English translation, and cannot comment on their original meanings.
Glad to see you are aware that there is a difference. But are all Zionists proponents of the extreme doctrine of a select few? As your buddy conceded earlier, Zionist extremists constitute a small minority in those who believe in a homeland for the Jewish people. You do not have to be Jewish to agree that they are entitled to a homeland (e.g. myself)
Ignorant statement. Those "Jewish Courts" you speak of are there to assist Orthodox, religious Jewish disputes only. They exist only to ensure fairness and equality for RELIGIOUS matters involving Jews who live in a secular society. These courts do not serve as a means to be above the law of non-Jews like you are implying. Jews facing criminal charges are not "moved" to Jewish Courts to decide their fate.
Again you are attempting to push a lie as truth. Jewish courts do not have superiority or authority over state and federal courts. I would also assume there are Islamic courts, Christian courts and Catholic courts that exist too. You just don't take note of them because your focus is on illustrating how Jews apparently receive special treatment.
Why should I travel to Asia when 70% of those who use public transport come from this region? That is the fault of Multiculturalism, not Judaism. You are showing religious intolerance by stating that Jewish culture is everywhere and in everything done in USA. What about the Greek district, Italian restaurant trip, Mumbai street etc.
Hell, what about the Buddhists from Thailand that have their very own statues of Buddha in open display? Same as in Japan many Buddhist statues and temples exist openly and freely, even though the population is mainly Shinto.
Can't this be said for so many other cultures though? Multiculturalism is the real perpetrator here, not specifically Zionism. I actually agree with you on that front. It would be a much more pleasant world if every religion, ethnicity, or other non-nation group of people were entitled to only live in one region, of which the same area of land and fair and equal resources existed. Yes that would be fantastic!
It would be win-win for everyone because those who dislike the culture and rules of other people being enforced on their own country, would have nothing to complain about. Everyone would be happy, and no conflicts or religious wars would be fought.
Google Video Link
Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Actually, I am now done with this thread. It seems two people in this thread have a desire to assassinate my character, dismiss all of my facts, disagree with all of my statements, ridicule me for defending what I believe in, and show a general disrespect for all of my opinions that don't fit their ideologies.
No doubt this will bring a smile to both of your faces, as you think you have attained victory and silenced your opposition. I really do hope there are other people around you who can bring you back to reality and direct you to the help you need.
Peace to all ATSers, peace to the ME and peace to the whole world.