Yep, It's Thermite! So Much for the "Oxygen" Excuse

reply to post by mmiichael

mmiichael, from my reading of it, it seems he's saying that elemental aluminum could have reacted in the MEK soak, but since it did not react that must mean the aluminum was highly oxidized all ready preventing any reaction from happening in the soak. From this test alone he claims that this proves any elemental aluminum would be surrounded by a "compact layer of aluminum oxide" thus preventing it's reaction in the soak but also at 430C.

But the paper does go a step further and analyzes what came out of the soak. The thermite paper claims they found the oxidized aluminum, but they also claim that the aluminum outnumbers oxygen 3 to 1 which thus proves that all the aluminum could not be oxidized, that elemental aluminum must be present.

My question is why he stops where he does in his argument but doesn't tackle the paper's conclusion based on the tests they performed on the chip after the soak. Or to put it a different way, and hopefully much simpler, I'm wondering why he doesn't mention the results that they supposedly found after the soak in fig. 17.

Anyway,I hope this makes sense. Thanks for the response, I'll stop back tomorrow as I've been up a long time doing things I shouldn't have been doing.

Edit to add: Here's a third way of putting it: He theorizes what should be found after the soak, but he doesn't actually test his theory by comparing it to the test results that were actually run,

[edit on 21-7-2009 by NIcon]

reply to post by Seventh


Who ordered the proof of explosions evidence?...

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]
I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.
...
You did hear the explosions [when the North Tower came down]. Of course after the first one -- the first one was pretty much looking at in like in awe. You didn't realize that this was really happening because you kind of just stood there and you didn't react as fast as you thought you were going to. The second one coming down, you knew the explosions. Now you're very familiar with it.
Interview, 01/25/02, New York Times

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I grabbed her and the Lieutenant picked her up by the legs and we start walking over slowly to the curb, and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.
Then everybody stops and looks at the building and they they take off. The Lieutenant dropped her legs and ran. The triage center, everybody who was sitting there hurt and, oh, you know, help me, they got up and and everybody together got up and ran. I looked at them like why are they running? I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, s___, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down.
...
North Tower:
We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy s___, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said s___ and everybody started running and I started running behind them, and we get to the door.
Interview, 01/23/02, New York Times

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.
Interview, 10/31/01, New York Times

James Curran -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
A guy started scremaing to run. When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and you heard it, I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed.
Interview, 12/30/01, New York Times

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]
After a while we were looking up at the tower, and all of a sudden someone said it's starting to come down.
...
This would be the first one.
...
This one here. It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times
Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
I was watching the fire, watching the people jump and hearing a noise and looking up and seeing -- it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out. Then I guess in some sense of time we looked at it and realized, no, actually it just collapsed. That's what blew out the windows, not that there was an explosion there but that windows blew out. The realization hit that it's going to fall down, the top's coming off. I was still thinking -- there was never a thought that this whole thing is coming down. I thought that that blew out and stuff is starting to fly down. The top is going to topple off there.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)
Anyway, with that I was listening, and there was an incredibly loud rumbling. I never got to look up. People started running for the entrances to the parking garages. They started running for the entrances. I started running without ever looking up. The roar became tremendous. I fell on the way to the parking garages. Debris was starting to fall all around me. I got up, I got into the parking garages, was knocked down by the percussion. I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there. The Vista International Hotel was my first impression, that they had blown it up. I never got to see the World Trade Center coming down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
We were in the process of getting some rigs moved when I turned, as I heard a tremendous roar, explosion, and saw that the first of the two towers was starting to come down.
...
When the dust started to settle, I headed back down towards the World Trade Center and I guess I came close to arriving at the corner of Vesey and West again where we started to hear the second roar. That was the north tower now coming down. I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building. Obviously we were later proved wrong.
...
The sight of the jumpers was horrible and the turning around and seeing that first tower come down was unbelieveable. The sound it made. As I said I thought the terrorists planted explosives somewhere in the building. That's how loud it was, crackling explosive, a wall. That's about it. Any questions?
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)
We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV. I would have to say for three or four seconds anyway, maybe longer. I was just watching. It was interesting to watch, but the thing that woke everybody up was the cloud of black material. It reminded me of the 10 commandments when the green clouds come down on the street. The black cloud was coming down faster than the building, so whatever was coming down was going to hit the street and it was pretty far out. You knew it wasn't coming right down. Judging from where people were jumping before that, this cloud was much further.
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
I looked up, and the building exploded, the building that we were very close to, which was one tower. The whole top came off like a volcano.
...
So now both towers have been hit by a plane. The north tower was burning. So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
North Tower:
John Malley, who was right behind me, I turned around for him, because he was doing something, either putting his coat on or something, and as I was looking at him I heard the explosion, looked up, and saw like three floors explode, saw the antenna coming down, and turned around and ran north.
Interview, 01/09/02, New York Times

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
[It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw.
...
He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them too.
...
I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like at eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes.
Interview, 10/03/01, New York Times

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
That's basically where we were. Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off. I was, I believe, ahead of the rest of the firefighters and officers there. I made it to the corner, and I took about four running steps this way when you could feel the rush of the wind coming at you. I believed that that was a huge fireball coming at the time.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
We came out from 90 West, made a left, headed east, and right when we got to the corner of Washington and Albany, that's when I heard the building collapse.
First I thought it was an explosion. I thought maybe there was bomb on the plane, but delayed type of thing, you know secondary device.
...
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.
Interview, 12/26/01, New York Times

Art Lakiotes -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Safety Command]
Tower one now comes down. Same thing but this time some of us take off straight down West Street, because we realized later on, subconsciously we wanted to be near buildings. We all thought it was secondary explosives or more planes or whatever.
Interview, 12/03/01, New York Times

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
We were walking into darkness. As we walked through those revolving doors, that's when we felt the rumble. I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off. The pressure got so great, I stepped back behind the columns separating the revolving doors. Then the force just blew past me. It blew past me it seemed for a long time. In my mind I was saying what the hell is this and when is it going to stop? Then it finally stopped, that pressure which I thought was a concussion of an explosion. It turns out it was the down pressure wind of the floors collapsing on top of each other. At that point everything went black, and then the collapse came. It just rained on top of us. Everything came. It rained debris forever.
Interview, 12/12/01, New York Times

Julio Marrero -- E.M.T. (F.D.N.Y.)
I was screaming from the top of my lungs, and I must have been about ten feet away from her and she couldn't even hear me, because the building was so loud, the explosion, that she couldn't even hear me. I just saw everybody running; and she saw us running, and she took off behind us.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Orlando Martinez -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
There was an explosion and after we started running, I was able to make it to Chambers and West, where I only saw one EMT, EMT Vega. She is new here. She was the only EMT I saw from the station and with all the cops and everybody else running, rescue workers. I grabbed her and I said just stay with me. We will try to get out of here.
Interview, 11/01/01, New York Times

Linda McCarthy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
So when that one went down. I thought the plane was exploding, or another plane hit. I had no idea it was coming down. But I couldn't see it gone, because I couldn't see it really in the first place with all the smoke.
Interview, 11/28/01, New York Times

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running. Everyone is, firemen, PD, everyone is running away from the World Trade Center, up Vessey Street. This is North End, we was running around Vessey and around North end to get away from the first smoke.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]
As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.
Interview, 12/11/01, New York Times

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) []
I was standing kind of on the edge of where our elevator bank met the big elevator bank. That was when the - I determined that's when the north tower collapses. We are standing there and the first thing that happened, which I still think is strange to me, the lights went out. Completely pitch black. Since we are in that core little area of the building, there is no natural light. No nothing, I didn't see a thing.
I had heard right before the lights went out, I had heard a distant boom boom boom, sounded like three explosions. I don't know what it was. At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.
Interview, 12/05/01, New York Times

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]
When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino -- you know, dominoeing up and then come down. We were right in front of 6, so we started running and how are you going to outrun the World Trade Center? So we threw our tools and I dove under a rig.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I thought more could be happening down there. I didn't know if it was an explosion. I didn't know it was a collapse at that point. I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Juan Rios -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I was in the back waiting, you know, so we could wait for patients and I was hooking up the regulator to the O-2, when I hear people screaming and a loud explosion, and I heard like "sssssssss..." the dust like "sssssssss..." So I come out of the bus, and I look and I see a big cloud of dust and debris coming from the glass...
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Michael Ober -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
Then we heard a rumble, some twisting metal, we looked up in the air, and to be totally honest, at first, I don't know exactly -- but it looked to me just like an explosion. It didn't look like the building was coming down, it looked like just one floor had blown completely outside of it. I was sitting there looking at it. I just never thought they would ever come down, so I didn't think they were coming down. I just froze and stood there looking at it.
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Mike Mullan walked one flight up, and then the most horrendous thing happened. That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook. Everything went black. The wind rushed, very slowly [sound], all the dust, all the -- and everything went dark.
Interview, 01/22/02, New York Times

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [Battalion 31]
Then that's when -- I kept on walking close to the south tower, and that's when that building collapsed.
...
It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down.
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Kennith Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Meanwhile we were standing there with about five companies and we were just waiting for our assignment and then there was an explosion in the south tower, which, according to this map, this exposure just blew out the flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.
Interview, 12/10/01, New York Times

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above. I looked up, I saw smoke and flame and then I saw the top tower tilt, start to twist and lean.
...
I was assisting in pulling more people out from debris, when I heard the second tower explode. When I tried to evacuate the area, by running up Fulton, got halfway up.
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)
Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder, papers, flying everywhere. We sat put there for a few minutes. It kind of dissipated.
...
That's when we heard this massive explosion and I saw this thing rolling towards us. It looked like a fireball and then thick, thick black smoke.
Interview, 10/03/01, New York Times

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
The best I can remember, we were just operating there, trying to help out and do the best we could. Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Neil Sweeting -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
You heard a big boom, it was quiet for about ten seconds. Then you could hear another one. Now I realize it was the floors starting to stack on top of each other as they were falling. It was spaced apart in the beginning, but then it got to just a tremendous roar and a rumble that I will never forget.
Interview, 11/01/01, New York Times

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)
At that point I looked back and most of the people who were triaged in that area with the triage tags on them got up and ran. I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.
...
Within a few moments, I regrouped with Bruce Medjuck and I asked him to tell them on the radio to send us MTA buses to get people out. That didn't happen. But one thing that did happen was an ambulance pulled up which was very clean. So I assumed that the vehicle had not been in the - what I thought was an explosion at the time, but was the first collapse.
Interview, 10/30/01, New York Times

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
The next thing I heard was Pete say what the f___ is this? And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out. I later realized that the building had started to collapse already and this was the air being compressed and that is the floor that let go.
Interview, 10/23/01, New York Times

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
The door closed, they went up, and it just seemed a couple of seconds and all of a sudden you just heard it, it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came and my officer just actually took all of us and just threw us down on the ground and kind of just jumped on top of us, laid on top of us.
...
At that point were were kind of standing on the street and I looked to my left and actually I noticed the tower was down. I didn't even know that it was when we were in there. It just seemed like a huge explosion.
Interview, 01/17/02, New York Times

Stephen Viola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Our guy went in with 13 truck, and he was coming down with the guy from 13 truck to bring the elevator to us, and when he was either going up or coming down the elevator, that's when the south tower collapsed, and it sounded like a bunch of explosions. You heard like loud booms, but I guess it was all just stuff coming down, and then we got covered with rubble and dust, and I thought we'd actually fallen through the floor into like the PATH tubes, because it was so dark you couldn't see anything, and from there it was a little hazy from there on.
Interview, 01/10/02, New York Times

William Wall -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47]
At that time, we heard an explosion. We looked up and the building was coming down right on top of us, so we ran up West Street. We ran a little bit and then we were overtaken by the cloud and we hid behind a white Suburban.
...
Oh, when we came out of the building and we were walking across West Street when we first got out of the building, we're walking across the street and all you heard was like bombs going off above your head. You couldn't see it. It was just cloudy. And we found out later it was the military jets. That was an eerie sound. You couldn't see it and all you heard was like a "boom" and it just kept going. We couldn't see 50 feet above our head because of the dust. So we didn't know if it was bombs going off or whatever, but we didn't want to stay there.
Interview, 12/10/01, New York Times

Just a thought, only a thought, that extensive list I just posted. There are probably just as many if not more videos, showing exactly the same thing, how the hell do debunkers look at all that evidence and not think.. `Hold on a minute, there are 20 plus 1st responders there all saying the same thing, they were there I was not, would people whom lay down their lives to save others, reap any benefits whatsoever... by lying?`.

J-F-C seriously, wtf does it take to open their eyes?.

reply to post by Seventh

Problem is eyewitness testimony is unreliable at best. Cognitive psychology has been able to figure out that much.

Several studies have been conducted on human memory and on subjects’ propensity to remember erroneously events and details that did not occur. Elizabeth Loftus performed experiments in the mid-seventies demonstrating the effect of a third party’s introducing false facts into memory.4 Subjects were shown a slide of a car at an intersection with either a yield sign or a stop sign. Experimenters asked participants questions, falsely introducing the term "stop sign" into the question instead of referring to the yield sign participants had actually seen. Similarly, experimenters falsely substituted the term "yield sign" in questions directed to participants who had actually seen the stop sign slide. The results indicated that subjects remembered seeing the false image. In the initial part of the experiment, subjects also viewed a slide showing a car accident. Some subjects were later asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "hit" each other, others were asked how fast the cars were traveling when they "smashed" into each other. Those subjects questioned using the word "smashed" were more likely to report having seen broken glass in the original slide. The introduction of false cues altered participants’ memories.

SOURCE:agora.stanford.edu...&tversky.htm

In addition to perceptual errors, eyewitness accuracy may be reduced by errors that occur within the memory process. Memory can be divided into three stages: encoding, storage, and retrieval. Errors may occurs at any of these stages. The acquisition of information is referred to as encoding by cognitive psychologists. According to the Yerkes-Dodson principle, information is encoded best when a person is moderately aroused. At this level of arousal, a person's attention is focused and information is acquired well. Extreme arousal, or stress, however, causes information to be lost or encoded inaccurately.

At the second stage of memory, storage, acquired stimulus information is stored. However, both interference and decay can reduce the accuracy of stored information. Decay refers to the loss of stimulus information due to the passage of time. The amount of time that has lapsed between the witnessing of the crime and the subsequent questioning of the eyewitness can determine the amount of information that the eyewitness recalls (Lipton, 1977). Secondly, interference, which refers to the loss of old stimulus information due to interference caused by new stimulus information, can also reduce the accuracy of eyewitness accounts. Gorenstein and Ellsworth (1980) found that after viewing mugshots, the accuracy of eyewitnesses' ability to recognize faces viewed before the mugshots was reduced. Moreover, questions that eyewitnesses are asked after the crime have been found to interfere with information that eyewitnesses acquired during the crime. In one study, subjects were shown a film of an automobile accident and then asked a series of follow-up questions about the accident (Loftus, 1979). A misleading follow-up question contained information about a barn, which was actually not present in the film. One week later, 17% of subjects erroneously reported seeing a barn in the film. In effect, the misleading question incorporated new and inaccurate stimulus information in the memory store.

Retrieval, the final stage in the memory process, involves the recall of information from the memory store. Yet, recall may be influenced by the types of questions that eyewitnesses are asked. One study found that language can influence the retrieval of stimulus information (Loftus & Palmer, 1974). In this study, subjects were shown a film of an automobile accident and then asked a series of follow-up questions. Participants who were asked how fast the cars were going when the cars "smashed", reported an average speed of 40.8 mph. However, participants who were asked how fast the cars were going when the cars "contacted" reported an average speed of 31.8 mph. Suggestive questioning procedures, therefore, should be eliminated as much as possible to minimize their effect on eyewitness accuracy. Another retrieval phenomenon, known as unconscious transference, refers to the generation of memory that is related to an incident, but, is not relevant to the issue being considered. For example, a bank teller who has been robbed, may mistakenly identify a one of his regular customers as a suspect. This phenomenon was demonstrated by Robert Buckhout (1974) when he staged a mock assault in front of 141 unsuspecting college students. Seven weeks later, these students were asked to pick the perpetrator from a group of 6 photographs. Of the 60% who did not correctly identify the assailant, 2/3 incorrectly chose an innocent bystander who was at the crime scene.

There are several other phenomenon that have been examined for their effect on eyewitness memory. Some of these include exposure to misleading post event information, lighting conditions, stress, weapon focus, individual differences, cross-race effects, exposure duration and more. For further reading, I reccomend Mistaken Identification, The Eyewitness, Psychology and the Law (Cutler & Penrod, 1995) and Adult Eyewitness Testimony (1994).

SOURCE:psy.ucsd.edu...

Need I post more?

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows

I hear what you`re saying bud, but, if eye witness accounts by guys trained for this work all state they heard explosions, they heard them, in my book anyways .

/cheers

reply to post by Seventh


Doesn't matter how much training you have. Still human. Same things apply. Especially in confused high stress situations like the one we are talking about. And then there is the basic fact that everytime a memory is acessed it's changed.

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Seventh

 

Doesn't matter how much training you have. Still human. Same things apply. Especially in confused high stress situations like the one we are talking about. And then there is the basic fact that everytime a memory is acessed it's changed.

Explosions are explosions, some of these guys sustained injuries from these explosions, also there is audio/video evidence, seismograph readings, photographs.

reply to post by Seventh


If that is what you choose to believe that is fine.

additional reply to post by Seventh


But I would have to ask a building collapsing would not cause injuries? And conrete and steel hitting concrete and steal wouldn't sound like a bomb going off before it turned into a general rumble of noise? Case in point all the "evidence" you cite for a bomb blast is flimsy at best and can be a expected from the situation of a collapsing building.



[edit on 21-7-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
additional reply to post by Seventh

 

But I would have to ask a building collapsing would not cause injuries? And conrete and steel hitting concrete and steal wouldn't sound like a bomb going off before it turned into a general rumble of noise? Case in point all the "evidence" you cite for a bomb blast is flimsy at best and can be a expected from the situation of a collapsing building.



[edit on 21-7-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Just listen to all the eye witness accounts here, also look at the videos.....

www.911eyewitness.com...

`We heard an explosion, it looked like a shock wave, all the windows blew out`.

I agree the mind is a powerful thing, but it stops far short of creating post blast shock waves and blowing windows .

reply to post by Seventh


You do realise air is going to be pushed down in a collapse situation right?

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Seventh

 

You do realise air is going to be pushed down in a collapse situation right?

I`ll come back when you`ve watched the videos, no matter how much air is compressed it`s not going to affect unbroken and intact floors is it?, only the 2 floors between each other if any, the original explosions came from the basements, you may want to do research here on how 1 such explosion vaporised a 50 ton hydraulic press.

Originally posted by NIcon

NIcon,

it seems he's saying that elemental aluminum could have reacted in the MEK soak, but since it did not react that must mean the aluminum was highly oxidized all ready preventing any reaction from happening in the soak. From this test alone he claims that this proves any elemental aluminum would be surrounded by a "compact layer of aluminum oxide" thus preventing it's reaction in the soak but also at 430C.

But the paper does go a step further and analyzes what came out of the soak. The thermite paper claims they found the oxidized aluminum, but they also claim that the aluminum outnumbers oxygen 3 to 1 which thus proves that all the aluminum could not be oxidized, that elemental aluminum must be present.

My question is why he stops where he does in his argument but doesn't tackle the paper's conclusion based on the tests they performed on the chip after the soak. Or to put it a different way, and hopefully much simpler, I'm wondering why he doesn't mention the results that they supposedly found after the soak in fig. 17.

Edit to add: Here's a third way of putting it: He theorizes what should be found after the soak, but he doesn't actually test his theory by comparing it to the test results that were actually run.

Why he (Manieri) doesn't follow up further only he would know. Negligence, oversight, avoiding results that might contradict his assumption?

Aluminum is highly reactive, but I don't know what circumstances or temperatures ranges permit oxygen bonding and when it is prevented. Is it possible there are conditions where it will bond with something more readily than oxygen?

If there is the presence of elemental aluminum in the red chips at the stated level would it necessarily be due to oxygen unavailability or is there another explanation?

Curious what your explanations is for the disparity.


Mike

reply to post by Seventh


Air will be pushed down to those unbroken and intact floors. And the glass on those levels are still breakable. Especially when you take into account pressure differences which has destroyed many a house in tornado alley when all the windows were open.

[edit on 21-7-2009 by Watcher-In-The-Shadows]

Originally posted by Watcher-In-The-Shadows
reply to post by Seventh

 

Air will be pushed down to those unbroken and intact floors. And the glass on those levels are still breakable. Especially when you take into account pressure differences which has destroyed many a house in tornado alley when all the windows were shut.

Tornado`s are external pressure and bear no similarities with an internal explosion whatsoever, now if you look at those videos or any from ten million others available you will be shown windows blowing at storeys way below levels that could have been affected by downward air pressure, here you will also see explosions of such magnitude they expelled steel sections of outer and inner partitions, weighing in excess of 60 tons hundreds of metres above and away from the original structure.

The whole air pressure theory got debunked out of the window along with it`s pancake theory counterpart a long time ago.

Now instead of troll baiting me go and do some research your arguments are both condescending and out dated my friend.

reply to post by Seventh


And the ad hom begins, I am not trolling sir, just seeking discourse though it's telling that you would start attacking me after a few posts of disagreement. Each floor was interconnect via ways air could travel with the collapse pushing air down those ways and the power of pressurized air is not to be scoffed at as you obviously do. And I know that which I am talking about but I approach it from an angle of not trying to prove my preconceptions.

addition reply to post by Seventh


And, the house being destroyed by pressure differences come from the high pressure air being brought INSIDE the house and having nowhere to go.

reply to post by Watcher-In-The-Shadows


How do you build pressure with an open ended tower? How can the jets
many sub levels below the demo wave have the same velocity if you
claim "floors are trapping air when falling"?

As "Seventh" has mentioned, the 'air pressure' excuse has been debunked
long ago.