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Roswell Debris Confirmed As Extraterrestrial: Lab Located, Scientists Named!

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posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 06:12 PM
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Oh for Christs sake! Roswell was a flying saucer! Why all this # if it was a weather balloon!? US Government covered it up cause they did not want their enemies to know what tech they had. They are still covering because they are still getting technology from the Greys.... Sheesh! Some of the world may be stupid but most are open to the US Gov and the NWO!!!! And the grays!!!! Treaty!!!




posted on Jun, 15 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by stevcolx
Oh for Christs sake! Roswell was a flying saucer! Why all this # if it was a weather balloon!? US Government covered it up cause they did not want their enemies to know what tech they had. They are still covering because they are still getting technology from the Greys.... Sheesh! Some of the world may be stupid but most are open to the US Gov and the NWO!!!! And the grays!!!! Treaty!!!


Thanks for the information.

Think I may have figured it out now. The Greys attacked a clothes line to a MOGUL balloon with their laundry out to dry. It snapped and everything fell into the field where Mac Brazel found it.

Explains the shape maintaining metallic material. A sort of high tech polyester wash-and-wear uniform for those important "Take me to your Leader" occasions.

With nothing to wear, most hightailed it back to home planet. A few still wandering around naked, abducting overweight American women.

JFK was going to disclose everything.


Mike





[edit on 15-6-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 10:25 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael

Mike,

I hope you find this link useful:
The Center For UFO Studies Response To The Air Force’s 1997 Report The Roswell Report: Case Closed

I am sorry, but CUFOS have thoroughly debunked that MOGUL explanation long ago. You are arguing from the standpoint that it was a weather balloon, but clearly, this wasnt a balloon of any kind, and the Air Forces dummies explanation confirms the reports of bodies.

The Air Forces report; "Case Closed" is and was clearly a sham. The problems with the report ranged from; Using Discredited witnesses, Ignoring Credible Witnesses, Ignoring Their Own Experts, Selective Use Of Testimony, and so on.

Best regards,

[edit on 16/6/09 by Majorion]



posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by Frank Warren
 


Frank, great thread


you might get a kick out of watching this video , i know i did





posted on Jun, 16 2009 @ 10:46 PM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


Hi Mike,

I was surprised to see you on this thread, I know you are trying to understand & give your side of the story.

However you might be making a few mistakes though:

Have you read & researched the real findings/books by Nick Pope & all of the real investigators/ufologists/writers that he based his own research on?

Have you researched the Psychologists/Psychiatrists & witnesses that Nick Pope investigated & became close to?

Do you understand their statements & testimony that Nick has investigated & that have helped him, (& other investigators before him) ?

How much of your own time have you spent researching the relevant/sufficient evidence involving The Roswell Incident? - Remember it is a very complicated event, only because of DISINFORMATION.

If you go back & look at some evidence that surfaced before the 1947 Roswell Incident & THEN research Nick Popes findings & many other credible Investigators, but started long before Nick Pope you might have a clearer understanding.

Remember when you look into the past properly, sometimes the future is Crystal Clear, and I mean that involving 9/11 as well.

Cheers

[edit on 16-6-2009 by Skyline666]



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 12:09 AM
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Originally posted by Skyline666
How much of your own time have you spent researching the relevant/sufficient evidence involving The Roswell Incident? - Remember it is a very complicated event, only because of DISINFORMATION.

If you go back & look at some evidence that surfaced before the 1947 Roswell Incident & THEN research Nick Popes findings & many other credible Investigators, but started long before Nick Pope you might have a clearer understanding.

Remember when you look into the past properly, sometimes the future is Crystal Clear, and I mean that involving 9/11 as well.


Hi Sky,

I am an arch debunker to most on a conspiracy site because I don't enter buying into the accepted views that are almost default in this environment.

To debunk is to get rid of bunk. And boy, I see a lot of it.

One problem with exchanging information on subjects like 9/11 or Roswell is that there are advocates of the conspiracy versions but fewer motivated to disprove their claims.

The US government has a million projects and activities on the go at any one time. They do not have hobbyist researchers and investigators working for years on end trying to prove to questioners their version of events. They just say "our records tell us .." and that's it. The people issuing this information are neither familiar with the back story, the participants, or the cultural politics.

And there are few books with titles like “Nothing Happened at Roswell” or “No Controlled Demolition at WTC.” Less controversial subject with little sense of wonder appeal do not have large audiences.

So really the more detailed analytic picture comes from the Ufologists who believe the US government is involve in some massive cover-up.

In my time I've interfaced with a generation of older scientists and experts in many fields, mostly born in the 1920s, who grew up in the post-war generation of increasing computer and mathematics specialization, and security related scientific research.

Most knew of the growing stories of UFOs and the sub-culture surrounding it. Some were even participants in their youth.

I have friends who would be aghast at the claims cavalierly thrown around that they and their contemporaries were not always responsible for decades of hard work and research, and that some was piggy-backed off salvaged alien technologies. They would say it's lunacy. And they would know it's impossible.

Though a relatively small pool of specialists by today’s standards, they often knew each other as part of a professional community and social network. Typically they co-ordinated with each other on projects for private industry, governments, and academic institutions.

Though I had access to a collective pool who had knowledge of highest level projects and research, not one ever heard a credible rumour of anything suggestive of the supposedly secret alien technology and psyops infrastructure that conspirators throw out as given. I’m being polite in conveying their response.

The argument will inevitably be that it’s all ultra-top-secret and no one talks about it. Easy to say, but not plausible when you know the people who would be involved or have some intimation of these things. These were not uninformed ore easily fooled people. Many of them were directly involved in the highest levels of research and technological development in human history. Collectively they hey knew better than anyone what was going on in the technologically advancing world they lived in.


What I say here will not be given weight by those on this forum because they are mostly convinced there is something of tremendous magnitude associated with Roswell.

But they neglect to entertain the overwhelmingly contrary indications that this is a creation of UFO investigators constructing an edifice of gaps in information, confusion, and suggestion rather than a bonafide event.

The less exotic invariably has less appeal. But the world operates on principles of objective reality not shared wishful thinking.

Mike






[edit on 17-6-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 12:10 PM
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Mornin' Mike, Sky,

Allow me to chime in:


Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Skyline666
How much of your own time have you spent researching the relevant/sufficient evidence involving The Roswell Incident? - Remember it is a very complicated event, only because of DISINFORMATION.

If you go back & look at some evidence that surfaced before the 1947 Roswell Incident & THEN research Nick Popes findings & many other credible Investigators, but started long before Nick Pope you might have a clearer understanding.

Remember when you look into the past properly, sometimes the future is Crystal Clear, and I mean that involving 9/11 as well.


Hi Sky,

I am an arch debunker to most on a conspiracy site because I don't enter buying into the accepted views that are almost default in this environment.

To debunk is to get rid of bunk. And boy, I see a lot of it.


I'm hoping that you're a "skeptic" opposed to a "debunker" Mike; the latter in my view comes to the table with "cognitive bias" (at best), or bias borne by ignorance, and generally doesn't bother to evaluate the evidence.


One problem with exchanging information on subjects like 9/11 or Roswell is that there are advocates of the conspiracy versions but fewer motivated to disprove their claims.


I would argue that "bias" on a certain subject is predicated by the individual, not the topic, regardless of one's respective stance.


The US government has a million projects and activities on the go at any one time. They do not have hobbyist researchers and investigators working for years on end trying to prove to questioners their version of events. They just say "our records tell us .." and that's it. The people issuing this information are neither familiar with the back story, the participants, or the cultural politics.


This is an excellent point! The gist of it being that "extensive research" trumps ignorance every time.


And there are few books with titles like “Nothing Happened at Roswell” or “No Controlled Demolition at WTC.” Less controversial subject with little sense of wonder appeal do not have large audiences.


There's no doubt that there are more pro "ET" books on Roswell then not; however, I would argue just the opposite with 911. The books that have been written about the attack and its after-effects far outnumber any conspiracy publications.

I might add that I don't uphold any conspiracy theory re the attack pertaining directly to "other" explanations for the towers coming down (aside from the planes hitting them). That said, I will also qualify that statement by acknowledging the fact that I haven't done my own research nor analyzed the arguments.


So really the more detailed analytic picture comes from the Ufologists who believe the US government is involve in some massive cover-up.

In my time I've interfaced with a generation of older scientists and experts in many fields, mostly born in the 1920s, who grew up in the post-war generation of increasing computer and mathematics specialization, and security related scientific research.

Most knew of the growing stories of UFOs and the sub-culture surrounding it. Some were even participants in their youth.

I have friends who would be aghast at the claims cavalierly thrown around that they and their contemporaries were not always responsible for decades of hard work and research, and that some was piggy-backed off salvaged alien technologies. They would say it's lunacy. And they would know it's impossible.


Men of science also knew the earth was flat, and the sun revolved around it; that man couldn't withstand high-speed train travel (opposed to the horse and buggy). Re space flight, man could never get off the ground and if he ever did, the radiation in space would surely kill him!

The obvious point is that whatever popular belief is, or whatever the status quo is at any given time is irrelevant. History teaches us that scientific advancement has been made by the few or the one, and by doing things or thinking differently.

Arguing that something "can't be" because your friends and acquaintances were not aware of it is nonsensical Mike. This logic would suggest that the Manhattan Project didn't exist because then Vice-President Truman wasn't aware of it.

Most of us would presume that the "Vice-President of the United States" would be briefed on the very project that would be responsible for ending the war, or that he would have been briefed on the fact that we possessed such a weapon of great magnitude; however, it was deemed that "he didn't need to know!"


Though a relatively small pool of specialists by today’s standards, they often knew each other as part of a professional community and social network. Typically they co-ordinated with each other on projects for private industry, governments, and academic institutions.

Though I had access to a collective pool who had knowledge of highest level projects and research, not one ever heard a credible rumour of anything suggestive of the supposedly secret alien technology and psyops infrastructure that conspirators throw out as given. I’m being polite in conveying their response.


I wonder if your compadres (or you) were aware of the fact that scientists like Dr. Edward Teller, Dr. Norris Bradbury, Dr. Frederick, Dr. Reines, Dr. John Manley, Dr. Luis Alvarez, or Dr. Lloyd Berkner, to name a few were involved with UFO research, many from the get-go. My guess is not.

Moreover, the very scientists you cite, having been involved with "projects of highest level" certainly wouldn't be able to talk about them. A civilian project would be bound by non-disclosure, and military by security oath.


The argument will inevitably be that it’s all ultra-top-secret and no one talks about it. Easy to say, but not plausible when you know the people who would be involved or have some intimation of these things. These were not uninformed ore easily fooled people. Many of them were directly involved in the highest levels of research and technological development in human history. Collectively they hey knew better than anyone what was going on in the technologically advancing world they lived in.


You're correct in your assessment: "not talking" about a "guarded project" started starts lower in classification then "secret" or above. Certainly your not saying that your friends and or acquaintances would break a non-disclosure agreement or security oath?


What I say here will not be given weight by those on this forum because they are mostly convinced there is something of tremendous magnitude associated with Roswell.


We are of course in a UFO forum, so I cede the fact that a "slant exists"; speaking only for myself: in our colloquy, we have debated "point-counterpoint"; I believe that I have illuminated the weak points of your arguments.

That said, I feel your latest offering is the most deficient. Your argument at it's core it "this can't be, because these people would have known, and they would have told me.

Part of the irony here is the very reason the Air Force claimed they "lied" (re Roswell) and offered the "cover story" of a weather balloon" is because they were concealing the "top secret" Project Mogul.


But they neglect to entertain the overwhelmingly contrary indications that this is a creation of UFO investigators constructing an edifice of gaps in information, confusion, and suggestion rather than a bonafide event.

The less exotic invariably has less appeal. But the world operates on principles of objective reality not shared wishful thinking.

Mike

[edit on 17-6-2009 by mmiichael]


[CONTINUED ON NEXT POST]



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 12:22 PM
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[CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST]

I would argue that the world "DOES NOT" operate on principles of objective reality and more by "shared wishful thinking." If it did, we would be without war and famine; quite frankly, methinks "wishful thinking" and or lack of the thought process all together is more of an accurate description!

Debunkers (not referring to you) often attempt to lump all researchers together; they infuse the subject subject matter with words like, "believe," "believer," "conspiracy theorists" to name a few; however, when we get down to the minutiae, then they don't want to be bothered with the facts.

The evidence speaks for itself Mike, regardless of the spin that others put on it; and as repeated several times in this thread: one only need to look at the evidence with "unbiased eyes."

CHeers,
Frank



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 12:35 PM
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Thanks for your follow-up Frank. I await your next installment.

I did not emphasize enough in my original post that the professionals I mentioned in their day were part of a fairly tight community of experts in their emerging fields.

If such a thing as retro-engineering alien technology ever happened, and the results were introduced, those intimately involved on an ongoing basis would notice immediately. Technological advances do not appear out of thin air like magic. Usually there is a long period of development, refinement, testing, peer review, etc.

Without knowing the background adequately, I would say it's a display of ignorance and an insult to many scientific researchers to even imply something like memory metals was surrepititously retrieved from an alien technology. This would be dismissing what was probably many years of research and development by many career professionals, in favour of what I consider to be a fantasy notion.

I may have come in with some neutrality, but have become increasing irritated as I see this type of argument promoted as scientific inquiry.

The US government may be capable of maintaining vast secretive operations, but the scientific community cannot be easily blindsided with breakthrough technological advances that appear out of thin air.

I continue to see this as hobbyists analyzing selected activities of the scientific community, the military, the government, without full understanding of how they operate.

In turn the institutions and experts give little notice to the hobbyists because of the outrageously unsubstantiated and often impossible conclusions they reach.


Mike



posted on Jun, 17 2009 @ 01:49 PM
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Mike,


Originally posted by mmiichael

Thanks for your follow-up Frank. I await your next installment.

I did not emphasize enough in my original post that the professionals I mentioned in their day were part of a fairly tight community of experts in their emerging fields.


I did in fact feel you put adequate emphasis on that point. Can we name anyone, or be more specific? Who, when, where and what fields?


If such a thing as retro-engineering alien technology ever happened, and the results were introduced, those intimately involved on an ongoing basis would notice immediately. Technological advances do not appear out of thin air like magic. Usually there is a long period of development, refinement, testing, peer review, etc.


I think we have to many fronts going here; Bragalia was being specific with what we've labeled memory metals; "our debate" went back to the reality of what happened at Roswell. I don't adhere to the Corso dogma that gave credit of origin of so many achievements by "seeding in" alien technology. This does mean to say that I throw the baby out with the bath water either.


Without knowing the background adequately, I would say it's a display of ignorance and an insult to many scientific researchers to even imply something like memory metals was surrepititously retrieved from an alien technology. This would be dismissing what was probably many years of research and development by many career professionals, in favour of what I consider to be a fantasy notion.


Although I initiated this thread by sharing the information here, I have not familiarized myself enough with Tony's work to "sign off on it" or condemn it. I do however, appreciate his efforts and tenacity as stated in my initial post.

From your perspective, it is redundant to discuss anything being derived from alien technology ala Roswell, since you feel Roswell was nothing but military incompetence. Hence my instance on reviewing the original evidence.


I may have come in with some neutrality, but have become increasing irritated as I see this type of argument promoted as scientific inquiry.


I understand your frustration.


The US government may be capable of maintaining vast secretive operations, but the scientific community cannot be easily blindsided with breakthrough technological advances that appear out of thin air.


On this we agree.


I continue to see this as hobbyists analyzing selected activities of the scientific community, the military, the government, without full understanding of how they operate.


This too, certainly exists in part.


In turn the institutions and experts give little notice to the hobbyists because of the outrageously unsubstantiated and often impossible conclusions they reach.


Mike


Thank you for not invoking the term "believers!"

Let us not forget that every branch of the military investigated the UFO phenomenon. In essence the first Ufologists was the United States Air Force; Furthermore, I wouldn't call scientists like, Dr. Edward Teller, Dr. Norris Bradbury, Dr. Frederick, Dr. Reines, Dr. John Manley, Dr. Luis Alvarez, or Dr. Lloyd Berkner "hobbyists," Accordingly, I don't believe your "un-named scientists" would either.

Cheers,
Frank



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by Frank Warren
Let us not forget that every branch of the military investigated the UFO phenomenon. In essence the first Ufologists was the United States Air Force; Furthermore, I wouldn't call scientists like, Dr. Edward Teller, Dr. Norris Bradbury, Dr. Frederick, Dr. Reines, Dr. John Manley, Dr. Luis Alvarez, or Dr. Lloyd Berkner "hobbyists," Accordingly, I don't believe your "un-named scientists" would either.



Thanks again for your patience Frank, in the face of my dismissiveness.

I didn't name my scientific friends and won't, at least not online. Against the rules to reveal much in the way of actual personal data, and that of others. And this site's messages show up on Google now.

No one knows if a word I have said here is true, of course. I could be a drop out college student, an old guy in a trailer park, a lonely person desperate for attention and identity reinforcement.

So not providing an iota of substantiation, I'll just claim that I've had extended contact with people involved with high tech national security issues who would unquestionably be aware of anything significant as part of their jobs.

The alien component I dismiss without second thought. In truth it is what draws people to Roswell in the first place and has sold all those paperbacks.

I'll accept that there may be a still missing component in the Roswell story.

Apparently the base housed a nuclear facility or arsenal (forget now.) I imagine there were tremendous concerns with security breaches and spying. Again in mid-1947, 2 years after WWII had finished, there still were many questions about how advanced German and Japanese aeronautics had progressed, and what exactly the Russians were hiding up their sleeves.

This heightened alert state fits the overreaction scenario, as an uncertain military would adopt a "better safe than sorry" attitude with anything new that had unknown variables. When you are a well paid officer with time on your hands you have to account for your time somehow.

I hadn't realized until a few days ago that Roswell happened while the Maury Island non-event was still being investigated. So this compounds the level of immediacy.

It seems there was a window when the US military actually considered UFOs a serious national security issue. This accounts for the strange reporting and conflicting reporting. Over time the alert code level gets lowered and people begin to realize there is no impending threat of an invasion or whatever.

Mike


[edit on 18-6-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 02:46 AM
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reply to post by mmiichael
 


Dear Mike

From Mike

“It seems there was a window when the US military actually considered UFOs a serious national security issue. This accounts for the strange reporting and conflicting reporting. Over time the alert code level gets lowered and people begin to realize there is no impending threat of an invasion or whatever”.


Do you not consider that it is possible that now they know what is going on and that means that outwardly at least they can lower the threat level.



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 03:13 AM
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Originally posted by MAC269
Do you not consider that it is possible that now they know what is going on and that means that outwardly at least they can lower the threat level.


The present day US military considers gays in their ranks more of a concern than aliens intrusions.

Maybe that's the real Roswell secret covered up all these years.

This gives me an idea for the perfect ATS thread sure to get a ton of stars and flags:

"Are the Greys Gay?"


Mike





[edit on 18-6-2009 by mmiichael]



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 03:40 AM
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This particular subject is widely debated all over the globe, both openly between public people, and privately in back rooms, offices, and installations run by governments. I think its fair to say that only the people who were actualy there can give any realistic account of the events, and more specificaly the physical evidence from that incedent. It is unfortunate that the people cannot demand to see first hand, the physical remains of what made planetfall on that day, but untill independant scientific studies are performed, all the chit chat and scuttlebutt is mere speculation. Even the weight of eye witness accounts, and military personel comming out in support of UFO researchers claims, mean nothing without unbiased cold hard scientific PROOF.
I am of course aware of the many other strange incidents round the world, which appear to give strong credance to the case for UFO and extraterrestrial life, and its fair to say that the weight of strange happenings is a heavy one. Every nation, every spit of land has a tale to tell of strange visitations, abductions, and so on. But there is so little EVIDENCE (ie scientificaly supportable and irrefutable proof) available, that one might wonder if the truth will ever be properly known.
Me myself? I believe that there have been UFO and that people who have seen them , need not be crazy to think what they think , or to claim what they claim. I believe that we are not alone, and that the truth is one revolution away, but untill I see science to back up the myriad claims, I will reserve the full weight of my belief.
Faith is for religion, for God. Facts and science are what is required for this particular subject.



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 11:42 AM
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Mornin' Mike,


Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Frank Warren
Let us not forget that every branch of the military investigated the UFO phenomenon. In essence the first Ufologists was the United States Air Force; Furthermore, I wouldn't call scientists like, Dr. Edward Teller, Dr. Norris Bradbury, Dr. Frederick, Dr. Reines, Dr. John Manley, Dr. Luis Alvarez, or Dr. Lloyd Berkner "hobbyists," Accordingly, I don't believe your "un-named scientists" would either.



Thanks again for your patience Frank, in the face of my dismissiveness.

I didn't name my scientific friends and won't, at least not online. Against the rules to reveal much in the way of actual personal data, and that of others. And this site's messages show up on Google now.

No one reading those know if a word I have said here is true, of course. I could be a drop out college student, an old guy in a trailer park, a lonely person desperate for attention and identity reinforcement. You don't really know.


Or a lonely old college drop out, desperately seeking attention and identity reinforcement living in a trailer park. :>))


So not providing an iota of substantiation, I'll just claim that I've had extended contact with people involved with high tech national security issues who would be aware of anything significant as part of their jobs.


Not to be rude Mike, but just to note the obvious: your rebuttal arguments are based on hearsay and assumptions of sources you can't produce . . . hmmmm . . . where have I heard that before? ;>)


The alien component I dismiss without second thought. Though in truth it is what draws people to Roswell in the first place and has sold all those paperbacks.

I'll accept that there may be a still missing component in the Roswell story.


Herein lies the problem; one can't be objective when you've reached a determination before any analysis.


Apparently the base housed a nuclear facility or arsenal (forget now.) I imagine there were tremendous concerns with security breaches and spying. Again in mid-1947, 2 years after WWII had finished, there still were many questions about how advanced German and Japanese aeronautics had progressed, and what exactly the Russians were hiding up their sleeves.

This heightened alert state fits the overreaction scenario, as a bored military with lots of time on their hands would adopt a "better safe than sorry" attitude with anything new that had unknown variables.

When you are a well paid officer you have to account for your time somehow.

I hadn't realized until a few days ago that Roswell happened while the Maury Island non-event was still being investigated. So this compounds the level of immediacy.


Maury Island was but one event that Davidson & Brown (CIC) were investigating at the time, and yes it compounds not only the urgency, but underscores the cognition of the intelligence branch of the Army Air Force pertaining to the Flying Saucer phenomena, as well as their immediate investigation thereof.


It seems there was a window when the US military actually considered UFOs a serious national security issue. This accounts for the strange reporting and conflicting reporting. Over time the alert code level gets lowered and people begin to realize there is no impending threat of an invasion or whatever.

My ADHD just kicked in, so I'm sending this first draft and hope it's intelligible.

Mike


The laws that penalized military men, both by incarceration and fine for disclosing UFO minutiae are still on the books today. Moreover, documents culled from various archives ares still redacted; security oaths are still enforced and military pursuit still takes place e.g., Stephenville, Kokomo (as late as last year 2008).

I would argue that what you're calling an "alert code level" hasn't changed at all.

Cheers,
Frank



[edit on 18-6-2009 by Frank Warren]



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by mmiichael
This heightened alert state fits the overreaction scenario, as an uncertain military would adopt a "better safe than sorry" attitude with anything new that had unknown variables. When you are a well paid officer with time on your hands you have to account for your time somehow.

I hadn't realized until a few days ago that Roswell happened while the Maury Island non-event was still being investigated. So this compounds the level of immediacy.


Things weren't that dull for the military in the late 40s. The Air Force and the Defense Department did not exist during WWII, neither did the CIA or the Strategic Air Command. These were all new entities developed after the war. The 3 branches had to be integrated under DOD control, no small task with plenty of bickering. Plus the Soviet threat was already recognized.

For the Air Force, being the new branch on the block, I'm sure there was more going on. It wasn't war time, but it was an important transitional time. As time went on, the USAF absolutely wanted out of the UFO business at least in terms of dealing with reports from the public.

You are absolutely correct about Maury Island.



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by Frank Warren

just to note the obvious: your rebuttal arguments are based on hearsay and assumptions of sources you can't produce . . . hmmmm . . . where have I heard that before? ;>)

[...]

Herein lies the problem; one can't be objective when you've reached a determination before any analysis.

[...]

Maury Island was but one event that Davidson & Brown (CIC) were investigating at the time, and yes it compounds not only the urgency, but underscores the cognition of the intelligence branch of the Army Air Force pertaining to the Flying Saucer phenomena, as well as their immediate investigation thereof.

[...]

The laws that penalized military men, both by incarceration and fine for disclosing UFO minutiae are still on the books today. Moreover, documents culled from various archives ares still redacted; security oaths are still enforced and military pursuit still takes place

[...]

I would argue that what you're calling an "alert code level" hasn't changed at all.



Frank,

Thanks again for humouring me.

I am not a primary source investigator, operating more as an informal data analyst. I state my drawn conclusions here as this is more conversational a venue than a peer review situation.

What I observe is a lot of isolating of 'open doors' as arguments. "The Air Force is still checking out this", "they never said it was shown not to be a space ship", etc.

Applying more common sense than documentation, after 60 odd years of coming up with nothing that they thought was a threat to national security, the military and intelligence communities have taken a very passive stance on UFO reports. There might be potentially spying or attacking hardware up in the sky and they need to be on constant alert. But objects from other worlds is not something they are expecting too much.

So many false alarms have made them wary and weary.

I think if one were tracking claims of something similar, say claims of biological weapons, germ warfare, viruses, water contamination, etc - one would find cases and events that were highly suspicious. Is swine-flu an attack by foreign government agencies? Is HIV an attempt to decimate segments of the population? Does the US have the ultimate virus that can kill millions? etc

No doubt there is conflicting and questionable data and reports from various government agencies. Behind close door meetings, secret bases said to be developing the ultimate bacteriological weapons, etc. Incidents were whole towns were wiped out with no explanation.

And there is some basis of truth to a lot of these claims. But you'd have to have some pretty solid substantiation to make a claim that there was a conspiracy with top secrecy that has been maintained continuously by, say, US military run labs somewhere.

And like JFK or 9/11, one can endlessly pick apart the MSM reporting, government source material, testimonies, confession, unofficial reports, and information gathered by "hobbyists" (not those terrible "believers" - note.)

But with my beer in hand looking out at the trailer park, I don't see enough consistency and evidence to conclude that something momentous happened at Roswell happened in 1947.

It may have, and I'm close-minded about it. The genesis of this thread,
"Roswell Debris Confirmed As Extraterrestrial: Lab Located, Scientists Named!" furthers my increasing skepticism. I'm sure the investigation is sincere. My quick look at the argument makes me summarily conclude "more bunk."

I don't quite know how to put it in any new way. A lot of inferences, a lot of unanswered questions, a lot of irregular activity, and a lot of testimony. But the proof remains elusive.

The fact that you are pursuing this indicates you expect a payload somewhere along the line. So I guess it can be said, fairly, we've both drawn our conclusion on whether or not there was something of great significance out there in New Mexico in 1947.

Over to you,

Mike



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 03:16 PM
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Lots of good information "FOR" the case that an alien craft crashed near Roswell here: www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jun, 18 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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Mike,



Frank,

Thanks again for humouring me.

I am not a primary source investigator, operating more as an informal data analyst. I state my drawn conclusions here as this is more conversational a venue than a peer review situation.

What I observe is a lot of isolating of 'open doors' as arguments. "The Air Force is still checking out this", "they never said it was shown not to be a space ship", etc.


Yet, you're guilty of the very same thing e.g.: "I have friends that are in the position to know about these things . . ." there are no such things as ET spaceships, they said so!"


Applying more common sense than documentation, after 60 odd years of coming up with nothing that they thought was a threat to national security, the military and intelligence communities have taken a very passive stance on UFO reports. There might be potentially spying or attacking hardware up in the sky and they need to be on constant alert. But objects from other worlds is not something they are expecting too much.


Had there been no threat, there wouldn't have been any investigation; since "shoot down orders" have been issued and "laws enacted for servicemen not to discuss UFO matters," and documents redacted and cover-ups perpetrated--obviously there was a "perception" of a threat.


So many false alarms have made them wary and weary.

I think if one were tracking claims of something similar, say claims of biological weapons, germ warfare, viruses, water contamination, etc - one would find cases and events that were highly suspicious. Is swine-flu an attack by foreign government agencies? Is HIV an attempt to decimate segments of the population? Does the US have the ultimate virus that can kill millions? etc

No doubt there is conflicting and questionable data and reports from various government agencies. Behind close door meetings, secret bases said to be developing the ultimate bacteriological weapons, etc. Incidents were whole towns were wiped out with no explanation.

And there is some basis of truth to a lot of these claims. But you'd have to have some pretty solid substantiation to make a claim that there was a conspiracy with top secrecy that has been maintained continuously by, say, US military run labs somewhere.

And like JFK or 9/11, one can endlessly pick apart the MSM reporting, government source material, testimonies, confession, unofficial reports, and information gathered by "hobbyists" (not those terrible "believers" - note.)

But with my beer in hand looking out at the trailer park, I don't see enough consistency and evidence to conclude that something momentous happened at Roswell happened in 1947.


Put the beer down, grab a cup of coffee and take another look!


It may have, and I'm close-minded about it. The genesis of this thread,
"Roswell Debris Confirmed As Extraterrestrial: Lab Located, Scientists Named!" furthers my increasing skepticism. I'm sure the investigation is sincere. My quick look at the argument makes me summarily conclude "more bunk."


The "definitive title" wasn't prudent in my view with the data presented; that said, what specifically do you take issue with re Tony's thesis?


I don't quite know how to put it in any new way. A lot of inferences, a lot of unanswered questions, a lot of irregular activity, and a lot of testimony. But the proof remains elusive.


Which proof? Are you speaking of Nitinol being tied to Roswell?


The fact that you are pursuing this indicates you expect a payload somewhere along the line. So I guess it can be said, fairly, we've both drawn our conclusion on whether or not there was something of great significance out there in New Mexico in 1947.

Over to you,

Mike


The "payload" or "rewards" if you will. often times come in small increments. Re Roswell, I have been fortunate enough to locate and talk to witnesses and or "collateral witnesses" family members friends etc). Moreover, I work with Roswell researchers who have raised the bar in regards to the investigation, and am privy to that information.

Our respective conclusions are apparent; however, I've come to mine via direct research and (do my best to) weigh the evidence on its own merits, with objectivity, and unbiased eyes.

Most naysayers re Roswell haven't done their own research, and usually echo sentiment that fits their mindset . . . or as Stan puts it "research by proclamation!" (No offense intended).

In conclusion, the "official explanation" for Roswell (now) is that it was precipitated by neoprene balloons and rawin targets, under the auspice of "Project Mogul." Even the layperson with very little investigation quickly concludes that this is ludicrous!

The anecdotes about "little" bodies were explained away (officially) by anthropomorphic 6' tall dummies dropped out of airplanes 5 years after the fact--more bunk! (To use your terminology).

Once an individual grasps these facts, he or she starts from the beginning and asks, "what was it?"

Cheers,
Frank



posted on Jun, 20 2009 @ 01:21 AM
link   
Something from another thread where ATS member 'AlienCarnage' has some interesting things to say.

Much food for thought and the best explanation of Roswell from someone who has researched it from the sounds of it.

No aliens, not weather balloons, and a plausible explanation for the inconsistencies of stories.

(note cut & paste for more than one post - typos corrected)

Mike




www.abovetopsecret.com...

The government coverups being talked about, such as Roswell for example, were not covering up crashed alien craft, they were covering up secret military craft that had crashed during testing. The coverup was using the UFO story to their advantage and making it look as though this were the actual story being covered up.

[...]

WWII ended in 1945, but during the war many top secret Aircraft were tested not far away from here and even after the war, they did not just suddenly start testing in 1952.

In 1937 the flying wing was built. By 1947 they were testing other military designs similar to this with many similarities and differences. One of these experimental craft fits with one of the descriptions in the documentation that I have read.

[...]

A downed military test craft is seen by many, the government gets in as fast as possible to clean it up, but by then there are already stories of a flying saucer, bingo great opportunity for cover story, but they can't just say it is an alien craft so they "cover up" the "alien crash". They find the flimsiest story possible, ie weather balloon, so that people will know that something is being covered up, but what the people think is being covered up is the alien crash, not the actual truth. This starts a whole process of denial of aliens and since there are no real aliens there is no chance of discovery, and using this new belief anytime someone sees something more than likely it will get attributed to aliens. The military will deny it since it is obviously not aliens, this leads to more suspicion from people who are seeing these craft. And thus the circle continues. The government is not lying they are not covering up aliens, in this stage they are not even necessarily black ops projects, just tests of advanced vehicles and technology.


Mike


[edit on 20-6-2009 by mmiichael]



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