Roswell Debris Confirmed As Extraterrestrial: Lab Located, Scientists Named!

Good Day, Mike, Mac. et al,

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by MAC269
Are the US nuclear facilities still being commanded and secured by retards?

I ask this because this is what the skeptics about Roswell will have you believe

www.thiscantbehappening.net.../15

a B-52 bomber flew from Minot AFB in North Dakota to Barksdale AFB in Louisiana carrying five fully armed Advanced Cruise Missiles, each equipped with nuclear bombs capable of exploding at anything from 5 kilotons to 150 kilotons.

The government has been quick to say that the flight, which violated a number of long-standing orders regarding shipment of nuclear weapons in US airspace, was a “mistake.”

Sorry skeptics but you can’t have it both ways. For the Base commander and one of the security officers to both agree and release a press statement to at very least something very unusual occurring.

en.wikipedia.org...

Dewey Defeats Truman" was a famously incorrect banner headline on the front page of the Chicago Tribune on November 3, 1948

But to believe the skeptics all that was found was silver foil and balsa wood, plus a bit of old rubber. Sorry but I am not having that as a possibility.

The one credible witness to the debris, Bessie Brazel who picked it up with her father, described it as such. She's the only one not retroactively trying to get attention and write herself into the history books, or the UFO ones, at least.

As mentioned previously in this thread:

Bessie Brazel "didn't confirm anything" she stated in an affidavit:

The debris looked like (my emphasis) pieces of a large balloon which had burst.
She also stated:

There as a lot of debris scattered sparsely over an area that seems to me now to have about the size of a football field [or about an acre] (my emphasis).

As well as:

The foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil can be torn. (My emphasis).

Moreover parts of her story, specifically her father's itinerary directly contrast the declarations of other witnesses, as well as newspaper reports.

If anything "her description contradicts a balloon explanation": a neoprene balloon if it burst would shrink back to its previously "un-aired size"; moreover, if any part of a balloon blew off, it certainly wouldn't be described like "foil-rubber material could not be torn like ordinary aluminum foil can be torn," nor cover "the area of a football field!"

Who in there right minds would do more than just walk on by let alone drive 70 miles to talk to the sheriff about it.

If we're talking about Mac Brazel, he went into town the next Monday and told the sheriff he might have found on of the newfangled flying saucers everyone was talking about since the Kenneth Arnold story a couple weeks before. He was what they used to call a "country bumpkin."

Mike the irony here is that you refer to Brazel as a country bumpkin, yet herald his daughter who was 14 at the time, as a credibel witness . . . I guess the "bumkin gene" skipped a generation! ;>)

Again sorry but something of significant happened there all those years ago.

Ah what well that is another matter?

A new mythology, a conspiracy sub-franchise, a career for a few out of work researchers, something to connect dots with forever.

From the evidence, less likely to be something of great historical importance and more like a source of embarrassment.

People, businesses, institutions, and militaries make foolish mistakes. They try to cover them up.

Mike



[edit on 11-6-2009 by mmiichael]

History has taught us that factual events have "turned into mythos"; there is certainly no doubt that "opportunists have arisen from the Roswell scenario" . . . I would argue that they fall into both camps (pro and con).

To state that, "From the evidence, less likely to be something of great historical importance and more like a source of embarrassment," is indicative to me that you need to further inspect the evidence, as that ideology just doesn't wash.

Finally, you wrote:

"People, businesses, institutions, and militaries make foolish mistakes. They try to cover them up."

Again we find common ground--I completely agree!

Cheers,
Frank

[edit on 11-6-2009 by Frank Warren]

Here again the point is being missed perhaps it is me not writing clearly enough.

Never mind what the Brazel family think they found in the desert. As they are not supposed to be professionals in this field.

It would seam that the facts in the case are that two security officers of the most elite air base in the world at that time thought what they had found to be very strange on that desert floor that afternoon.

So much so that one at least woke his family including his young son at 2am, to show it to them.

Obviously the base commander who was in charge of the only nuclear weapons on the planet at that time agreed and ordered a press release of a captured flying disc.

Notice this press release referred to a flying disc. Not just some strange material found in the desert.

To have come up in anyway with the idea that this was the crash of a flying disc more had to have been found at that time by the military.

Or do you still think that they are that dumb. If you are right I am very worried about the safety of this planet.

So unless you still think that the nuclear weapons in the USA at that time were being looked after by retards there is fare more to it than was ever included in the materials that went into a weather balloons or project mogul which consists of the same material anyway.

Originally posted by MAC269

To have come up in anyway with the idea that this was the crash of a flying disc more had to have been found at that time by the military.

Or do you still think that they are that dumb. If you are right I am very worried about the safety of this planet.

So unless you still think that the nuclear weapons in the USA at that time were being looked after by retards there is fare more to it than was ever included in the materials that went into a weather balloons or project mogul which consists of the same material anyway.

Don't know if I posted it already. A recent nuclear warhead transport error and stories of other mishaps.

Incompetence is everywhere, even the military.

With the Arnold report two weeks before no one knew what a flying saucer looked liked. And there really was was no such thing, just a miswording by a reporter.

This was 1947 when all this type of thinking was new. Given the new concern and unfamiliarity, and in the wake of WWII, could less sophisticated officers mistake unusual weather balloon debris for some foreign craft, or think it could be something used for spying purposes?

Yes.


Mike









[edit on 12-6-2009 by mmiichael]

reply to post by mmiichael


Arnold reported seeing craft flying at a speed that he had worked out to be around 8,000 MPH. As air forces officers I imagine this would have been of interest to them as at that time humans had not yet broken the sound barrier.

The sound barrier fell latter in the year due to technology given to the US by the British in the 1930’s.

So you can still think that as you say less sophisticated people back then who commanded the most powerful military base in the world, could mistake balsa wood and tin foil for a craft that could travel through our atmosphere at speeds in excess of 8,000 MPH. I have to say it please in all due respect GET REAL.

Sorry but I still think it was far more than that. Mat Brazel may have picked up such debris for fear that his animals may eat it and get sick but I doubt he would have even remembered it the next day let alone gone to tell the sheriff.

Look the US government lied then, Mogul was classified though I have no idea why. I would hardly think it was a big deal to listen for sound waves over ones own territory.

Think about it what would the problem be if people in the USSR had known that they where lessening.

There was nothing special about the technology of Mogul only the purpose for which it was being used.

Originally posted by MAC269
So you can still think that as you say less sophisticated people back then who commanded the most powerful military base in the world, could mistake balsa wood and tin foil for a craft that could travel through our atmosphere at speeds in excess of 8,000 MPH. I have to say it please in all due respect GET REAL.

You're saying they mistook balloons and attached sensing devices for high speed crafts, not me.

Brazel finds something he doesn't understand, it goes to a sheriff. It ends up in military personnel hands who aren't certain, particularly with the sensory equipment on it. Why would they take those dopey photos of it if they knew it was innocuous junk?

The Arnold incident alerted all military there were unknown things in the sky that were potentially threats to national security. Better safe than sorry in checking out anything. They were on high alert to report anything unusual.

If you think the military doesn't make idiotic blunders then you've never read much history. Soldiers have been killed by the thousands and bases wiped out because of officer judgement errors and confusion that are hard to believe. Even with our advanced communications and technology we see what's called "friendly fire" in the field today. A name for "military blunder." Officers are ordinary men with responsibilities not rocket scientists.

I think it was the electronic equipment attached to the Mogul balloons than concerned them. They may have wondered if this was some newfangled spying device the Top Brass needed to know about.

We just don't see any of the routine paperwork that would show up if this was anything. The Arnold and many other UFO sightings had reams of documentation.

People in 1947 were not any less intelligent than they are today. But their level of sophistication as far as technology was limited buy today's standard. Things like bendable plastics and tin foil were not common and considered high tech for the average person. And it is well documented the military makes monumental error in judgement, Few of them remain a subject of intense scrutiny more than half a century later.



[edit on 12-6-2009 by mmiichael]

Mornin' Mike, Mac, et al,

Incompetence is everywhere, even the military.

With the Arnold report two weeks before no one knew what a flying saucer looked liked. And there really was was no such thing, just a miswording by a reporter.

This was 1947 when all this type of thinking was new. Given the new concern and unfamiliarity, and in the wake of WWII, could less sophisticated officers mistake unusual weather balloon debris for some foreign craft, or think it could be something used for spying purposes?

Yes.

Mike

[edit on 12-6-2009 by mmiichael]

I'm afraid that's incorrect Mike; Flying Discs/Saucers were headline news across the country, so much so that even Mac Brazel's rural neighbors had heard about them.

True Arnold's description regarding "saucer" was pertaining to motion; however, he also said they were, "flat like a pie-pan" and "as big as a DC-4." Many other witnesses across the country described them as "discs."

Various newspapers had contacted the military within days of Arnold's sighting to deny that they were any military experiment.

In short, not only was there such a thing, sightings were occurring across the country--and it was 'front page news!'

Finally, I would argue that a "grunt" could distinguish "neoprene balloons" and a "rawin target" from "exotic debris" . . . much less an S-2 intelligence officer assigned to the only nuclear equipped airbase in the world, or his commanding officer. Let us not forget that Marcel also graduated radar school, and was more then familiar with balloons and rawin targets.

Cheers,
Frank

reply to post by mmiichael


Now you seam to be clutching at straws.

I have never read anything about Roswell in any description of any electronic equipment.

The description is of tin foil, balsa wood, shredded pieces of rubber, and markings.

Believe me I do know about military blunders mostly in the height of battle not while having a smoke in the desert with no one at risk, and no one in immediate danger.

When these pieces arrived back at the base do you not think that the very brightest and most experienced of them would not have been called in to take a look and offer an opinion before issuing a statement about capturing a flying disc which where all over the news at that time.

The American people where very much aware of the possibility of external life outside this planet after Orson Wells revamped HG Wells “War Of The Worlds” on the radio in something like 1938.

B29’s P51’s that they would have seen on a daily bases where not made of balsa wood and tin foil, so what in the world would make you think that these experienced military personnel would get excited about seeing something that resembles the wreckage of a child’s Kite.

It was a lie when they said it was a weather balloon and it’s still a lie today.

There is more that points to this but this is in my opinion the best piece of evidence in there fist hand statement about the flying disc. The commander’s stupidity as far as the national security is concerned is the release of this statement about the flying disc.

That is the truth the rest is lies.

reply to post by Frank Warren


Thanks for that Frank

It would seam that you agree with my opinion that what they found was indeed something very special. I do believe that the truth was in there first statement now what it actually was is another matter.

However what ever it was it is still secret and just about the only thing I can think of is it was extraterrestrial.

In 1985 or when ever it was they managed to come up with Mogul as an expiation this is it’s self points to documentation that is buried.

Other US government departments have been sent in after this documentation and have come back with nothing.

What else could possibly still be secret after more than sixty year’s?

Originally posted by Frank Warren

Flying Discs/Saucers were headline news across the country, so much so that even Mac Brazel's rural neighbors had heard about them.

... not only was there such a thing, sightings were occurring across the country--and it was 'front page news!'

Frank,


Probably my poor communication here. I tried to convey was how the world of 1947 was less attuned to the notion of unidentified objects in the skies and the possibility of alien visitations. WII was a quantum leap in technology awareness. Millions murdered systematically, warfare in the air with cities wiped out, two atomic bombs. Almost nothing could be dismissed as completely impossible.

The public were reading about Arnold and speculations he had seen either something of vastly advanced technology or conceivably outworldly.

It was in this climate the Roswell events happened. But, again, I find it difficult to discuss things like the testimonies of relevant participants without a 3 dimensional chart in front of me.

Marcel said such and such in 1947. He then told Friedman this in 1978. Later he revised the story to include this. Even later he clarified what he'd said by noting something else. And then he told how he'd been instructed to say such and such in 1947. And then his son says his father told him this. An on and on and on.

I sort of feel like I'm eating beef stew and still looking for the beef. Nothing is ever clear. The ground keeps shifting. The answers are always over the other side of the horizon.

I’m told it wasn't weather balloons. I know, I know, they military keeps changing their stories. As does Marcel and those other aging officers. It becomes circuitous, and I think the reason is not because I have a closed mind, inbuilt bias, refuse to look at all the evidence, etc. It's just that it doesn't add up in any ledger sheet for a major event.

Until Friedman opens the file in the 70s, it smacks of one of many past confused reported stories that get a few days run and die of natural causes.

I’ve always thought the person who would be called in if anything of monumental scientific interest arose would have been Albert Einstein, still active at Princeton. .

What I see happening in all this ongoing research is a lot of dancing around the lack of documentation and solid testimony. The memory metal inferring alien technology is just another straw clutuching example.

I admire the tenacity of researchers. But looking at not only the 1947 events but also the investigation now going on for 30 years, I just want to ask “Where’s the Beef?”

Mike

reply to post by mmiichael


The beef that you don’t want to see is in the head line released to the press the next day from a man that had been put in charge of the most powerful weapon on the planet.

Despite an erroneous newspaper report there was no saucer crash in New Mexico in 1947. The Operation MOGUL, NYU balloon project, flight #4 was the only debris recovered by Mac Brazel and Jesse Marcel Sr.

The considerable substantiation for this can be found summarized on the link below.

Excerpted is some commentary by the author on why some people still choose to believe otherwise.

Mike

home.comcast.net...

Despite claims that General Ramey was involved in a cover-up, nothing can be farther from the truth. Many of the quotes from contemporary sources do not have Ramey saying it was definitely a weather balloon. Instead, he is quoted as identifying the debris as coming from a radar target and balloon/weather balloon. While not exactly a weather balloon, the debris in the photographs was from a series of balloons and radar reflectors. While he was not exactly correct, he did not lie about what was found.

Needless to say the response from the "Crash" authors was immediate and they began to question the report. For years, they had proposed that the witnesses had handled debris from an actual flying saucer. They rallied the faithful into a chorus of catcalls and trivializing of the report. However, they overlooked many of the obvious answers to their objections in an effort to make it seem that the report was flawed. Today, there are a significant number of UFOlogists, who have decided that the Project MOGUL explanation fits. It seems only the Roswell faithful and those who have invested a significant amount of time writing about the subject are hanging on to the UFO crash scenario.

[...]

Almost all the crashed spaceship proponents knee-jerked at the possible explanation for the incident. Having spent thousands of hours and printed numerous books and movie deals, is it any wonder that they would try and find reasons, no matter how trivial, to reject the possibility that it was not an alien spaceship crash?

The pro-crashed saucer advocates have taken their best shot. Unfortunately, they can not stand up to the documentation concerning NYU project. Their strong desire to grasp any minor point and inflate it to make it appear that the NYU balloon train could not fit the descriptions is a smoke screen designed to help the faithful maintain their conviction and not jump ship. However, the coincidences associated with the NYU flights and the events described by many of the witnesses are too close to ignore. Is it mere coincidence that the general description of the debris given by many witnesses is similar to the materials that Dr. Moore used in his flight #4? Is it mere coincidence that flight #4 was never recovered and that it was last seen in the area near the debris field? Is it mere coincidence that the alien hieroglyphics were purple/pink, the same color as the figures on the tape used by the reflectors? Is it mere coincidence that the NYU project was active in the New Mexico area at the correct time? Is it mere coincidence that the photographs of the debris in Ramey’s office show the same type of radar reflectors used by the NYU project

[...]

It is clear that the author’s will never accept the flight #4 answer because they claim that they have overwhelming evidence to support their claim that an actual alien spaceship crashed near Roswell.

[edit on 13-6-2009 by mmiichael]

i m always buffled by the fact that us goverment will go to any length to debunk its officers and make em look like complete idiots.these guys said they found a saucer.and then changed it to balloon???omg idiots in charge of the mighty us army who cant distinguish a balloon from a saucer

reply to post by mmiichael


A Mogul Balloon is still a balloon. Many cattle ranchers did not want their cattle eating balloon pieces along with the grass, so they would immediately pick up any debris. However, the cattle rancher in question noticed the pieces were not ordinary when he picked it up.

An experienced intelligence officer (who was decorated in WWII) saw that the debris was not normal either. He had seen enough balloons to know what a balloon looked like. Again, the Mogul Balloon was still a balloon.

The newspaper did not erroneously report about a crash disk, they were told by the military that it had a crashed disk. Why would a full bird colonel risk his command by making up such a story? (The debris field was one area, and they must have found the disk somewhere else. That is why there is a theory of two sites.)

Also, if it was only a balloon, then they would not have needed so many flag officers to get involved with something that the DCM could handle.

Now it appears some of the metallic substances were tested at a laboratory, and the results were written up in classified documents. Someone wrote in a memo about the documents in question, and those memos have now come to light. Why would a scientist and researcher mention documents in a memo that they never intended the public to see?

The researchers now know documents of the test results of some of the debris exists. Now it is the difficult task of getting a hold of the documents themselves.

The story of Roswell is an intriguing one that raises lots of questions. There many not be any smoking gun, but there is gun powder and other evidence that the gun was fired.

Afternoon Mac,

Originally posted by MAC269
reply to post by Frank Warren

 

Thanks for that Frank

It would seam that you agree with my opinion that what they found was indeed something very special. I do believe that the truth was in there first statement now what it actually was is another matter.

The preponderance of evidence supports the notion that the local ranchers of the area were not only cognizant of weather balloons, but that they were a common "hindrance," as they were dangerous to livestock.

As mentioned previously, no balloon would have gone past Brazel, much Marcel, Cavitt or their commander.

However what ever it was it is still secret and just about the only thing I can think of is it was extraterrestrial.

In 1985 or when ever it was they managed to come up with Mogul as an expiation this is it’s self points to documentation that is buried.

Other US government departments have been sent in after this documentation and have come back with nothing.

What else could possibly still be secret after more than sixty year’s?

I adhere to the ETH for Roswell, based on my own research, and that of colleagues, much I might add has not been publicized.

I assume you're referring to the Schiff investigation, which I see as a "David & Goliath" battle, with a negative outcome (for the most part). One of the interesting things that came from the investigation by New Mexican Congressman Steve Schiff, was the fact that it was discovered that, "military documents on the so-called Roswell Incident, . . . were apparently destroyed without authorization decades ago."

To answer your final question . . . there could be many things that would necessitate secrecy for 60 years; however, deducing that the determinant of the "Roswell Incident" was "ET related"--for me isn't arrived at easily, nor was it done by "process of elimination."

I come by the conclusion based on the preponderance of evidence, not only with Roswell, but with all of Ufology.

Cheers,
Frank

Greetings Mike,

Originally posted by mmiichael

Originally posted by Frank Warren

Flying Discs/Saucers were headline news across the country, so much so that even Mac Brazel's rural neighbors had heard about them.

... not only was there such a thing, sightings were occurring across the country--and it was 'front page news!'

Frank,


Probably my poor communication here. I tried to convey was how the world of 1947 was less attuned to the notion of unidentified objects in the skies and the possibility of alien visitations. WII was a quantum leap in technology awareness. Millions murdered systematically, warfare in the air with cities wiped out, two atomic bombs. Almost nothing could be dismissed as completely impossible.

No argument here; early on as one might speculate, most folks thought these "strange objects" were a product of our military.

The public were reading about Arnold and speculations he had seen either something of vastly advanced technology or conceivably outworldly.

Actually, this incorrect; as stated above, an "outworldly" explanation didn't come till later.

It was in this climate the Roswell events happened. But, again, I find it difficult to discuss things like the testimonies of relevant participants without a 3 dimensional chart in front of me.

The climate was that people were seeing "strange craft" all over the country (as well as the world); when "strange debris was discovered by Brazel and "shared with his neighbors," it was suggested that perhaps this one of said craft.

Marcel said such and such in 1947. He then told Friedman this in 1978. Later he revised the story to include this. Even later he clarified what he'd said by noting something else. And then he told how he'd been instructed to say such and such in 1947. And then his son says his father told him this. An on and on and on.

Specifics please.

I sort of feel like I'm eating beef stew and still looking for the beef. Nothing is ever clear. The ground keeps shifting. The answers are always over the other side of the horizon.

Not so Mike! Yes there is noise; however, with patience and diligence, one can find the signal.

I’m told it wasn't weather balloons. I know, I know, they military keeps changing their stories. As does Marcel and those other aging officers. It becomes circuitous, and I think the reason is not because I have a closed mind, inbuilt bias, refuse to look at all the evidence, etc. It's just that it doesn't add up in any ledger sheet for a major event.

The first explanation by the PTB was that it was a "Flying Disc"; the second was that it was a "weather balloon"; the third was that it was a top secret project code named, Mogul; where the PTB slipped up, is that although the project may have been secret, the balloons were the same as the ones used for "weather."

As mentioned previously, part of the Roswell story is the impact of what actually happened; the other part is that there was and still is a cover-up, which by the way (as stated before), has been admitted by the PTB.

I would argue that things do add up.

Until Friedman opens the file in the 70s, it smacks of one of many past confused reported stories that get a few days run and die of natural causes.

OR, it smacks of, "being put to sleep."

I’ve always thought the person who would be called in if anything of monumental scientific interest arose would have been Albert Einstein, still active at Princeton. .

Ruppelt himself said that "every major scientific laboratory" was involved with "Flying Saucer research" he called it the "Flying Saucer grapevine."

What I see happening in all this ongoing research is a lot of dancing around the lack of documentation and solid testimony. The memory metal inferring alien technology is just another straw clutuching example.

Mike the Air Force didn't "overtly" investigate the UFO phenomenon for 22 years because of lack of documentation and or solid testimony.

I admire the tenacity of researchers. But looking at not only the 1947 events but also the investigation now going on for 30 years, I just want to ask “Where’s the Beef?”

Mike

Mike, the beef has been laying on the table in front of you for years, you only need to take off the blinders to see it . . .

Cheers,
Frank

Thanks for your input Frank. I'm going to take a day or two to rethink things. Not so much on whether Roswell was an event of tremendous magnitude or a comedy of errors. I think the answer to that is pretty evident.

But what I find is this becomes a battle of points back and forth, "Marvel said this" "No, he didn't." It becomes adversarial, a competition in proving who is right, and who is wrong.

Unlike the majority of people reading this I've worked with and known socially a lot of scientifically and technologically well positioned people who have worked for and interfaced with high level govemment projects here in Canada and the US.

The notion that there is this monolithic archestructure with top secret projects almost no one knows about is dispelled pretty quickly when you get to know these people and hear what they say.

People confuse fictional realities with the one world outside their window.

More on this sometime soon.


Mike



[edit on 14-6-2009 by mmiichael]