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Originally posted by Frank Warren
I'm afraid Allan's argument's are based on "false logic"; however his own description ("absurdum") of said argument is accurate. Moreover, as stated repeatedly evidence has been uncovered and continues to be to this day.
Originally posted by yeti101
beleivers find it real easy that an advanced civ could conquer FTL travel but they dont even contemplate the other advances such a civ would make.
We have UAVs in the middle east fitted with self destruct devices. Its protected from EM attack, works out of line of sight or comms and will even activate if the craft is submerged in water.
What advances in safety /crash avoidence & self destruct features would an ET civ capable of FTL make? I'd wager it would be impossible to crash such a craft even if it was going down the self destruct would kick in and you wouldnt find one scrap of evidence. Vapourised by nano bots in a split second. Thats just 1 idea this primitive human can think of. Who knows what else they could do.
But crash and leave their tech to us? . no chance.
Originally posted by kidflash2008
It is interesting my questions have gone unanswered by the debunkers. The USAF has gone out of its way to try to debunk Roswell, even though they have made countless statements that they do not care. Here is a few blogs on the subject by Kevin Randle:
kevinrandle.blogspot.com...
Here is an expert of the officer interviewing Major Randle:
"McAndrew called me on a number of occasions. He never seemed to be looking for information, though I told him what Edwin Easley, the Roswell provost marshal had told me. I said I would send copies of the tapes and the transcripts but he was uninterested. I suggested he talk with Brigadier General Arthur Exon, a retired Air Force officer who had some very interesting things to say. I thought he should talk to Patrick Saunders who had been the adjutant at Roswell in 1947, but he never did.
Instead he tried to get me to flip. He said that he could understand my making a buck on Roswell but I could tell him the truth. I didn’t really believe that little green men had been killed in a crash there, did I? He told me repeatedly that no one would think less of me if I told the truth about my motives in the Roswell investigation. I tried to make it clear to him that my conclusions were based on the interviews I had conducted with those involved and that I could put him in touch with many of them. He was not interested."
It seems that the Air Force spent much of its time trying to debunk the story. They did not interview anyone who had a different viewpoint that they wanted to hear.
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Frank Warren
I'm afraid Allan's argument's are based on "false logic"; however his own description ("absurdum") of said argument is accurate. Moreover, as stated repeatedly evidence has been uncovered and continues to be to this day.
Hi Frank,
Time pressure so a quick reply for now.
I agree Allan's analysis can be questioned. I looked at his informal summations more than point by point elaborations. I'm afraid I side with Allan's and some times collaborator Steuart Campbell's assessments.
Both are not novices to the field and Allan has researched deeply from what I can tell.
I try to impartially look at the piles of evidence for and against there having been something extraordinary happening in the Roswell vicinity in 1947 and come to the conclusions shared with the two gentlemen mentioned.
I don't know if you looked at that very special website I linked to in a recent post. It does a pretty thorough job, in my opinion, of laying out what we have to go on.
I'm always interested in seeing what you are coming up with. We may disagree on conclusions, but I respect your efforts.
Mike
Originally posted by Frank Warren
Unfortunately, Printy often times suffers from the a fore mentioned malady you noted earlier, i.e., "Attitude Polarization."
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Frank Warren
Unfortunately, Printy often times suffers from the a fore mentioned malady you noted earlier, i.e., "Attitude Polarization."
He clearly states his opinion, and applies comprehensive knowledge to the whole Roswell matter. Love the comedy treatment reminiscent of Heller’s CATCH-22.
Will always snicker now when I read “You don’t actually think the US military would be so stupid ...”
You accept the evidence that a significant event happened near Roswell in 1947. Presumably you've looked at the counterarguments.
I've taken in a substantial amount of analysis and evidence from both sides of the fence.
I have tangentially benefitted from professional examinations of many of complex stories, large and small, in other areas including high profile assassinations, along with many lower keyed crimes and murder cases.
With vast amounts of documentation, visual records, testimony - one can weave a web that that appears to be impermeable. That’s what Prosecutors are paid to do.
But documentation, hard evidence, reason, probability, common sense have to be brought into play.
Roswell is unusual in that it the case is made for alien contact. A fantastic almost religious significance comes into play. This level of mystery affects even rational, disciplined and knowledgeable people like yourself.
If it were determined there is intelligent life out there in the universe it would change how we see ourselves in the grand scheme of things.
But on an increasingly cold trail of a potentially history changing event I see only stretched to the breaking point extrapolations and much grasping at straws. Forged documents. A parade of old men subjected to a lot of prompting. A growing three ring circus of discredited witnesses. Aging career UFO investigators now squabbling among themselves as to who said what.
But still no solid evidence and the mass of documentation that should be there.
Deception and self-deception are funny commodities.
But who wants to tell Don Quixote he's chasing windmills.
Enjoy talking with you Frank.
Mike
[edit on 2-6-2009 by mmiichael]
Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Frank Warren
and yet your are unable to falsify my hypothesis. I look forward to any progress you make in doing that.
Originally posted by Frank Warren
Frank,
I actually thought Roswell might be the real goods when started reading about it years ago. But as the researcher driven +misinformation and deception piled up and the actual solid data turned out to be skewed interpretations rather than solid substantion a new pattern emerged. I attach great importance to UFO researchers like Allan pointing out that everything else possible has considerable multi-source independent documentation somewhere but on Roswell there is virtually nothing.
There have been admirable attempts to stretch what little is there like the conflicting information provided by the military. But I too often see common sense ignored as a case is constructed of ambiguities, inconsistencies and prompted responses rather than hard evidence.
Many serious researchers with far more knowledge than me have reached the same conclusions, which I think are inescapable. A lot of running around but nothing of great importance occurred that week in 1947.
I have no doubt thousands of credible people observe and maybe even interact with Unidentified Flying Objects. I have my own views on all this which are shared by some others.
The ET hypothesis is another matter. Nothing flies as to proof of any contact with outworldly intelligences as far as I have seen. Extraordinary claims really do require extraordinary proof, as the saying goes.
I wish I could add more.
Over to you.
Mike
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Frank Warren
Frank,
I actually thought Roswell might be the real goods when started reading about it years ago. But as the researcher driven +misinformation and deception piled up and the actual solid data turned out to be skewed interpretations rather than solid substantion a new pattern emerged. I attach great importance to UFO researchers like Allan pointing out that everything else possible has considerable multi-source independent documentation somewhere but on Roswell there is virtually nothing.
There have been admirable attempts to stretch what little is there like the conflicting information provided by the military. But I too often see common sense ignored as a case is constructed of ambiguities, inconsistencies and prompted responses rather than hard evidence.
Many serious researchers with far more knowledge than me have reached the same conclusions, which I think are inescapable. A lot of running around but nothing of great importance occurred that week in 1947.
I have no doubt thousands of credible people observe and maybe even interact with Unidentified Flying Objects. I have my own views on all this which are shared by some others.
The ET hypothesis is another matter. Nothing flies as to proof of any contact with outworldly intelligences as far as I have seen. Extraordinary claims really do require extraordinary proof, as the saying goes.
I wish I could add more.
Over to you.
Mike
Originally posted by Frank Warren
Many people who are ignorant to the Roswell minutiae reject it immediately, because they've heard it has an ET explanation attached to it. I say forget about ET and just look at the evidence objectively--the first thing that goes out the window, is the balloon theory. A balloon wouldn't have got past Brazel, much Marcel or anyone else up the chain of command.
So this leaves the question . . . "what was it?"
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Frank Warren
Many people who are ignorant to the Roswell minutiae reject it immediately, because they've heard it has an ET explanation attached to it. I say forget about ET and just look at the evidence objectively--the first thing that goes out the window, is the balloon theory. A balloon wouldn't have got past Brazel, much Marcel or anyone else up the chain of command.
So this leaves the question . . . "what was it?"
Frank,
I'll buy into that. The Whitley Strieber cover "Gray' alien has infected the Roswell story. Polluted it to a carnival level.
From what I understand, the US military has great latitude in responding to public inquiries and even to other governmental bodies. They can claim issues of national security at their discretion. They would also not be obligated to keep their stories consistent. They might just be too lazy to check what they said at previous junctures.
I feel their inconsistency does not necessarily imply some big secret so much as them saying "None of your business."
When I fail to turn up somewhere I often tell people I was kidnapped by aliens.
I keep returning to Allan as he has checked out comparative documentation availability on things like Arnold and other UFO claims. The argument that they were able to cover their tracks on something major at Roswell doesn't fly with me. Even when reports are expunged they can leave holes.
Just too many problems with Roswell being a serious occurrence that was scrupulously covered up. It all fits better into an over-reaction and ignorance scenario than something mysterious. Blunders even at top level of the military are not unusual.
And 30 years of empty air time in the story says a lot. A handful of career opportunist UFOlogists caught red-handed manipulating data, falsifying information, and playing games with witnesses also says a lot.
The alien component has kept the story afloat beyond it's ability to sustain itself. No aliens, just some military screw up. No aliens, no serious researcher interviewing you. No aliens, no chance to get yourself int the history books.
The old military personnel and the witness wannabes have read the books by now. Unconsciously or intentionally they are writing themselves into the script.
And still nothing emerges that is convincing for me and a lot of people that have covered the territory with a fine tooth comb.
So I remain highly skeptical.
But don't let that discourage you.
Mike
Originally posted by yeti101
reply to post by Frank Warren
sorry frank, if you produced a crashed saucer then my hypothesis would be falsified soundly
Originally posted by Frank Warren
if you feel that the last 30 years have been "empty air time" then you truly haven't been paying attention. Moreover, please name, names.
Originally posted by mmiichael
Originally posted by Frank Warren
if you feel that the last 30 years have been "empty air time" then you truly haven't been paying attention. Moreover, please name, names.
Frank,
The inevitable quick reply as I await someone. I was referring to 1948-78 when there was not much if anything on Roswell. Some researcher mentioned despite tons of detailed case references there was no mention of Roswell in Project Blue Book.
I understand your defensive stance of criticism of the Roswell as a major event. And I also understand I am not privy to much that is not public knowledge.
But it always feels like a lot of explanations are being handed out as to why there is no documentation, material evidence, and fully satisfactory witness testimony. It may be my unwillingness to see things without an inbuilt conclusion.
But I see a case for something being built around the military's inability or unwillingness to provide satisfactory information to researchers as opposed to nailing down solid proof.
I keep a very open mind that there might have been something that has not come to light as yet. Some as yet undiscovered reason for top secrecy.
But the crashed saucers and alien bodies scenario keeps looking more and more in the realm of suggestion and imagination.
More soon
Mike
Originally posted by eniac
--go to www.trueufosightings.com...
less than one quarter down the page, there's an interesting anecdote there about Center (under the paragraph header "The 'I-Beams'"):
...In May of 1992 one of us was approached by an informant who told an intriguing story. For the record, he was not a Battelle employee. He had attended North High School in Columbus, Ohio, graduating in June of 1960.
...
The fact that Mr. Center's story was told long before the details of the Roswell debris were known publicly, the possible confirmation of his story by the later descriptions of that debris cannot be ignored.