Question for Phage, Internos, Chadwickus and Easynow...

Interesting thread indeed.....

I would also like to see Zorgon(Z for the believers lol) and Armap and Nohup included in there... but hey.


It's a nice gesture all the same.



[edit on 22/5/09 by blupblup]

Still no Phage? yes, the above mentioned members are always there to mess things up just when the speculation and wild unfounded postulations are reaching fevered pitch. Why guys? Why are you guys a wet blanket on our tin foil hat parade? This is no place for informed logical thought, that kind of stuff will just throw you off course. Also, have you ever considered that your combined steadfast skepticisms have ended discussions on possibly very valid points? If so, is such a mindset still justfied in your mind? Lastly, thank you guys for upping the IQ level of the discussions you participate in, you are a credit to this public place of discussion.

Hehe I bet they will turn up, at this moment they are probably compiling some evidence on Chadwickus and easynows posts in this thread.

The apparent insidiousness aside (and it will not be tolerated further), this is a great thread and wonderful opportunity for our esteemed members to bring out the cases that keep their interests in this phenomenon piqued.

I am also very interested in what ArMap has to offer as well.

Without the critical thinking these, and several other members of ATS I can think of bring to the table, this forum would be just another paradise for those who seek to hoax, scam and or otherwise perpetuate their own agenda at the expense of innocent people who have experienced something they can't explain.

While we do in deed get plenty of hoaxers who try their wares here, they typically don't survive the rigors of the denial of ignorance.

Thank you "easynow" for a wonderful post. I can only hope that Internos, and Phage will join you with their own.

Springer...

This is a great thread.

Can i say a big thanks to chadwickus for bringing up the What Happened to Frederick Valentich? Possibly the scariest UFO case ever case as i don't remember reading about that one before.

Oh and of course a big thanks tot he OP

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984


Agreed, I missed that one when it was originally posted. It is a very interesting case.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
Great topic.

I wasn't aware that these ATS members were so idolized. I personally have found their input interesting and sometimes educational. Having hardcore skeptics or debunkers or what ever one chooses to call them is good for ATS. It keeps me on my toes and makes me check the facts before I post something. Having read through many posts in which these members have contributed I can honestly understand why some members feel frustration and anguish. It isn't so much that the topic was "Debunked" "Derailed" or proven wrong that gets members upset. It's the way in which the topic of the thread gets derailed. Sometimes it is done quite brutally with no concern for the poster. Not everyone is trying to pull a fast one..

There have been many occasions when the topic seems very clearly "Unknown" Some of the above mentioned names will give their "Opinion" and then it's considered "case closed" Meanwhile that is just an opinion not the gospel truth. I have to remind myself that. So I fully understand why some members are frustrated.

On Topic.

I'm grateful for those that have come forward to share what they feel are the unusual cases in their opinion. I have also felt that many of the previously mentioned cases are unique and do deserve further study. I'm always looking forward to hearing their opinions and their contributions. Sorry but that's as close as I can come to Idol worship.


Great post S & F

PEACE

Slay

Great post slayer i agree hundred percent, I have seen this for myself just because somebody is more knowledgable than you about the UFO subject in general doesnt make your de-value your OPINION in any way.

A grainy youtube video can be determined either way both opinions could be right

There are quite a few cases that have me baffled, and suggest to me that it's just not a matter of not having enough information. That's why I continue to drop in here and other places.

Video and still image evidence is still evidence, and when there are images presented by people who are not anonymous, who have no reason to make things up, and that appear to show things that might not be associated with Air Force black projects (hard to be sure, since they're SECRET, after all), they can really have me stumped. But at the end of the day, they're just images, and images by themselves will never, ever prove anything.

Also, just because I don't know what something is, that doesn't automatically make it "alien." It just means I don't know what it is, and may never know. I'm willing to accept that. A lot of people just can't seem to do it. It gets under their skin and they feel like they have to come to a conclusion about something or explain it in some way.

A lot of people on this site and elsewhere will often make the unreasonable and illogical jumps from "I don't know what it is," to "If I don't know what it is, and I don't know anything on Earth that looks like that," to "It must be evidence of extraterrestrial intelligences!" That continues to drive me nuts, and probably always will.

The hardest part of studying UFOs is keeping your personal feelings out of it, looking coldly at the evidence, and recognizing and acknowledging exactly where it falls short of proof. And it always does. Still, it doesn't hurt to keep looking.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by Nohup]

Great thread here, I look forward to hearing what Internos and Phage have to say. I've been a big fan of the UFO/Alien forum and I've seen these members contribute some very interesting stuff, even if it "derailed" the thread. They always prove a very, very good point. I've posted about a couple things and Chad has more than once provided evidence that cleared my mind about something being real or not. Keep up the good work guys!

reply to post by Nohup


Nohup I'd like to know what cases particularly whet your appetite, especially if there are any that you think an ET hypothesis is most likely...I agree with you that a lot of unexplained cases tend to overlook many other "unexplainable" possibilities.


*** And I'd also like to vote for Armap to be included with the other 4 Horsemen of the Skeptipocalypse! ***


This is a great thread and I think everyone who enjoys these guy's opinions needs to star & flag so some of the more overzealous believers can see just how well respected these supposed disinfo agents are.

It's also nice to show that even the most hardcore skeptics are still "believers" to an extent, and maybe some of you people hating on them can finally see how these guys actually work much harder than any of you to make UFOlogy a credible scientific process.

(rather than the "OMG a blip on an anonymous Youtube video - disclosure is coming I can feeeeeeeeel it!!!!" crapfest it is today).

I third the request for ArMap.

During a particular thread of mine, I believe all or most of OPs said esteemed ATS members posted. Curiously, I received a flood of U2Us 'warning' me that so-and-so was a 'disinfo' agent. I did not respond back to these U2Us and found some of them disturbing in their irrational logic.

I, for one, find the knowledge and insight of Phage to be delivered in an educational and respectful manner with class and decorum. ArMap, Chadwickus, Easynow, and Internos also provide important sides to an argument, poignant questions, and logical observations. I was appreciative they posted in my thread and brought forth the important questions and arguments they did.


As a self described truth seeker, I appreciate those who question, prove, disprove, and have me challenge my own thinking. Each one of these members have left me pondering in the middle of the night. Thanks to you all.

reply to post by bskivss3

I'm wondering if the experts think Tim Burton is just 'making dark comedy' or if it's possible the ET's may not be 'entirely friendly' ...

Originally posted by GEORGETHEGREEKI guess/hope Zorgon will be around too.

Zorgon is here... anxiously waiting for Phage's answer to this one

Great idea, I'm glad Nohup showed up because he's someone who always raises good skeptical points.

I really don't get some of the frequent hostility others show toward members like Phage. He never seems like a hard headed skeptic to me. I always enjoy reading his input.


[edit on 22-5-2009 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

Originally posted by arcnaver
That last video certainly looks like many hill fires I have seen here in the High Deserts of Idaho. To me, it looks like flames and smoke drifting off to the right.
.

Actually, there have been daytime photographs taken of the area and the hills are not that high.




www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by Springer

Thank you "easynow" for a wonderful post.

thanks Springer ...and thanks for giving us the best site on the web that gives us the opportunity to discuss these topics !

Without the critical thinking these, and several other members of ATS I can think of bring to the table, this forum would be just another paradise for those who seek to hoax, scam and or otherwise perpetuate their own agenda at the expense of innocent people who have experienced something they can't explain.

Yes exactly ! the members that strive to deny ignorance, is what makes this forum the best in the world and there is no doubt that without them, ufology would be , in my opinion, in a far... far worse place then it is now.

all the members already mentioned and some that have not been, have been the cornerstone or the main reason i have the knowledge that i do about this subject and others, and i will be forever grateful and thankful to all of them.

thanks again


















[edit on 22-5-2009 by easynow]

Originally posted by SLAYER69
There have been many occasions when the topic seems very clearly "Unknown" Some of the above mentioned names will give their "Opinion" and then it's considered "case closed" Meanwhile that is just an opinion not the gospel truth. I have to remind myself that. So I fully understand why some members are frustrated.

I hear what you're saying but the problem is there's two different kinds of unknown and really the question is what do you want to achieve from them:

It comes down to whether you want to believe Aliens exist or do you want to prove it?

Do you want to just convince yourself or do you want to convince the whole World?

The super-believers just want to convince themselves (or more appropriately reinforce their convictions) that aliens exist so they fight tooth and nail to declare something "unknown" because to them that's as good as saying it's a spaceship.

But if you want to convince the World - then "unknown" is unfortunately not good enough. When there's even the remote possibility of a mundane explanation, that's simply what the World is going to accept by default. It may not be fair - but it is what it is.

The skeptics are merely bringing to light what public opinion would ultimately do anyway. You're right that it shouldn't necessarily be case closed but at that point the onus is on the person to debunk the debunking. Unfortunately too often it just degenerates into angry name-calling after that.

This thread is great though because it's dedicated to the cases where even the hardcore skeptics can't really find a mundane explanation. That's when "unknown" becomes much MUCH more powerful.

Originally posted by mc_squared
Nohup I'd like to know what cases particularly whet your appetite, especially if there are any that you think an ET hypothesis is most likely...I agree with you that a lot of unexplained cases tend to overlook many other "unexplainable" possibilities. [...]

It's also nice to show that even the most hardcore skeptics are still "believers" to an extent, and maybe some of you people hating on them can finally see how these guys actually work much harder than any of you to make UFOlogy a credible scientific process.

Unfortunately, I don't think there are any cases that suggest a strictly extraterrestrial cause. The closest to it, maybe, would be the Parker/Hickson Abduction. But even that one falls short, as a result of my own thinking about the subject for several decades and moving more towards a more flexible definition of reality, rather than just taking what we know and extending it to include critters kind of like us living on and visiting us from other planets.

Without going into a lot of detail, I've come to consider that reality is an odd combination of physicality derived from observation by consciousness (overlapping) per the Copenhagen interpretation, that is full of weak spots or holes like a sponge or Swiss cheese that allows matter and energy to instantaneously slip and slide all over the Universe and backwards and forward in time. So UFOs, Bigfoot, ghosts, demons, leprechauns, fairies, time travelers, and all kinds of other weirdness is much more a manifestation of how our brains interact with this spongy, permeable reality, than with anything as simple as outer space creatures. And I suspect that this activity may not be comprehensible to us poor human beings in any worthwhile way, because we're just not set up mentally and physically to understand it.

There are bits and pieces of odd research to back this up a little, but not much. We don't even have a good way of talking about it, much less setting it up for good scientific research. But one has to start somewhere. And as Charles Fort basically said, if you're measuring a circle, you can start pretty much anywhere.

These guys help to make ATS as interesting at it is. They aren't alone in quality contributions, but would leave a big hole if they left. Here's a big Thank You.

Internos was the first to welcome me to ATS, he's like Kofi Annan to me. I'm a recent convert to Easynow, having mistaken him for a 'believer.' Sorry fella, I was wrong Chad's 'screw the BS' approach is usually entertaining and also stood out early doors. I never sussed that boxer avatar...Crowe? Phage is like a fountain of knowledge and I've learned a few things from his posts and links. He's like Judge Dredd to ill-conceived posts. He's a Subject Matter Expert to many members. A couple of posters have already mentioned it, but Armap should be included in the list too. He's the Hercule Poirot of ATS, pure detective. Polite, patient and an unwavering application to facts and evidence.

There are members in this and other sections that I admire equally. I'm old enough to pass a compliment without embarrassment and show appreciation. Without them (and others) ATS wouldn't be as compulsive. Fair play to the OP for saluting them S&F

reply to post by Kandinsky


Hi Kandinsky,

I couldn't have said it any better myself. Internos impressed with the first post of his I read: well documented, supporting evidence and a balanced assessment of the material overall.

Phage as ever is as sharp as anyone I've met when it comes to scrutiny of the material. Also what impressed me with Phage was that he kept his composure and maintained professionalism even when faced with some rather vitriolic. idiotic, comments.

The same can be said for Chadwickus. He keeps his cool and always stays focused on the essential, critical elements of a case. Very sharp.

As for Easynow, I've enjoyed everyone of his meticulously-detailed posts thoroughly.

These four have earned the accolades being bestowed upon them now and ATS should be grateful that they have such talent.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by mckyle]