Jesus sounds too amazing

reply to post by Roark


Please show us this evidence of Jesus, not only I but the entire world would like to know about it. And that Josephus writting was shown to be a forgery. Better yet since jesus was jesus of nazareth, Nazareth since it was worth metioning should have been a place on the map right? There is no proof of a Nazareth existing in the times of christ.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by The Mack]

reply to post by Roark


None the less, as any sort of religious person (those religions being primarily Judaism, Christianity) you don't refer to someone as a Christ or The Christ, unless you believe it. But we know that Josephus didn't believe it so, why would he say something such as "The Christ a man, if it lawful to call him a man, a doer of wonderful works.."

He wouldn't. This is just another christian forgery, of which there are many of.

reply to post by The Mack


I think the first better known of the supposed Jesus reference in Antiquities of the Jews is a forgery. And the second account is clearly refering to someone besides the Jesus of the bible, as it lists the person Jesus being accused of sorcery as the brother of a high priest.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


Great thread, I have starred it.

Jesus seems too amazing because He is too amazing.

I believe fervently in Jesus, but I do not believe in religions or churches. In fact I blame both for many wars as you will see if you check my posts.

The reason that Jesus said He was not of this world was because, obviously, it is true. The reason that Satan tried to tempt Jesus in the wilderness is that Satan has rule of this earth. You only have to look around you to see the truth of that - wars, starvation, and man's inhumanity to man, to name a few horrors.

I think that all people need to believe about Jesus is this: He taught gentleness, kindness, love and compassion for your fellow human. Whatever you believe, that has to be a good thing. Whether He is an alien or the Son of God is really immaterial.

In fact everything he has taught, the world disobeys. This is because Satan is the ruler of our world, and has been for many years.

But Jesus will come to demolish Satan.

I try to follow Jesus's example, and it is not easy.

Originally posted by The Mack
reply to post by Roark

 

Please show us this evidence of Jesus, not only I but the entire world would like to know about it. And that Josephus writting was shown to be a forgery. Better yet since jesus was jesus of nazareth, Nazareth since it was worth metioning should have been a place on the map right? There is no proof of a Nazareth existing in the times of christ.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by The Mack]

You want me to "present" the aggregated information here on the forum? C'mon mate, get serious.

Anyone can start themselves off by checking out the following sources:

Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
Mara bar Sarapion
Lucian (the Romano-Syrian)
Celsus
The Q manuscript
The Pauline Epistles
The Babylonian Talmud and other Jewish sources.

Yeah, the Nazareth thing is a peripheral, but interesting, issue. Maybe a discussion for another time/thread, though. I've read a little about it.

Originally posted by Miraj
reply to post by Roark

 

None the less, as any sort of religious person (those religions being primarily Judaism, Christianity) you don't refer to someone as a Christ or The Christ, unless you believe it. But we know that Josephus didn't believe it so, why would he say something such as "The Christ a man, if it lawful to call him a man, a doer of wonderful works.."

I didn't actually know about the Josephus "forgery" issue until today, so I've learned something new. It does indeed seem that the text was altered at least.

In my first response to you, I displaced Pliny or Tacitus for Josephus when I was referring to the writer's attitude toward Christianity ("rah rah rah quirky cult" etc). Sorry about that.

Nevertheless, there are multiple other ancient sources that reference Jesus.

Originally posted by The Mack
reply to post by Bryan LaVergne

 

Well i honestly think people go to christ becuase christianity requires you to do nothing but feel repentance at death. It puts the person in a state of no responisibility for their actions, you can do whatever you want as long as you repent jesus will forgive you. When you die you go to heaven end of story and everything is happy forever. However as much as i think it is false in the respect i think these events never actually took place it does not change the value of the book. That is to say if jesus is a fictional character does that change what was written? Does that make his advice bad? I do not think it does.

you say(to quote)''do nothing But feel repentence at death''?
This is not true!
It does not work like this.
Your life from birth should be Christ like....yes, your parents should show you good morals and give good advice to you from a young age and this builds you in later years,even though you may stray for whatever reasons.
At an age where you understand, then it's entirely up to you to do what is morally right or wrong.
One can't say that he/she is a christian and go to whatever and then actually believe that they would be rightfully forgiven...
It's not just about faith, but works as well.
It's about true repentance in all matters(not just words) God would surely know ones inner true feelings, as He gave a soul to Man.

It puts the person in a state of no responisibility for their actions, you can do whatever you want as long as you repent jesus will forgive you

Again , not true!
If this was true, then why is it written...''“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many might works in your name,And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers’” (Mt 7:21)

If one truly repents, then it is Gods will.
It does not put a person in a state of no responsibility for their actions.
QUOTE///"In my Father's house are many mansions … God will give to everyone according to his deeds … There is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for one star differs from another star in glory" (Is. 64:4; 1 Cor. 2:9; John 14:2, Mt. 16:27, 1 Cor. 3:8, 15:41).



Prophet Isaiah said before the destruction of Jerusalem: "The look on their countenance witnesses against them, and they declare their sin as Sodom. They do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" -Is. 3:9'

There are many responsibilities that must come to fruition, otherwise all must be accounted for.

helen

So I just did a little bit of Wikipedia surfing on the writings of Jesus.

I understand there are Gospels of Mathew Mark Luke and John.

"Probably written between 65 and 100 AD".

"They appear to have been originally untitled; they were quoted anonymously in the first half of the second century (i.e. 100 - 150) but the names by which they are currently known appear suddenly around the year 180.[3]"

"Scholars maintain that the gospels and all the books of the New Testament were written in Greek"

There is a FIFTH gospel called The Gospel According to Thomas written around AD 200 to AD 250 with another Greek fragment discovered in 1905 predating AD 200

This FIFTH gospel sounds like something straight from the ATS forums.

The Gospel of Thomas begins, "These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke and which Didymos Judas Thomas recorded."

HAX!

Here is another part of it.

Thomas claims that the body will never inherit life. Rather, for Thomas, the resurrection is a spiritual one. (talking about Jesus did not come back to life I think)

The teaching of salvation (i.e., entering the Kingdom of Heaven) that is found in The Gospel of Thomas is neither that of "works" nor of "grace" as the dichotomy is found in the canonical gospels, but what might be called a third way, that of insight. The overriding concern of The Gospel of Thomas is to find the light within in order to be a light unto the world.

This is getting pretty crazy. The more I read about this fifth gospel the more I am amazed! And I am an Atheist! I am going to start looking out for an albino hitman here soon.

The Gospel of Thomas does not refer to Jesus as "Christ", "Lord", or "Son of Man" as the New Testament does, but simply as "Jesus."

The Gospel of Thomas also lacks any mention of Jesus' birth, baptism, miracles, travels, death, and resurrection.

All of my sources for this information have come from

en.wikipedia.org...

And they list all of their sources.

Ok I have found another webpage from some scholars who have translated the gospel of Thomas and I am going to quote mine it for Conspiracy Theory goodness

2) Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

5) Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you. For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."]

Here we can clearly see he is talking about Disclosure and Atlantis. JK. No offense intended to anyone. JK. Ok moving on.

7) Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

I believe he is talking about Darwin here JK again. No hate. Love and humor. Moving on.

13) Jesus said to his disciples, "Compare me to something and tell me what I am like."

Simon Peter said to him, "You are like a just messenger."

Matthew said to him, "You are like a wise philosopher."

Thomas said to him, "Teacher, my mouth is utterly unable to say what you are like."

Jesus said, "I am not your teacher. Because you have drunk, you have become intoxicated from the bubbling spring that I have tended."

And he took him, and withdrew, and spoke three sayings to him. When Thomas came back to his friends they asked him, "What did Jesus say to you?"

Thomas said to them, "If I tell you one of the sayings he spoke to me, you will pick up rocks and stone me, and fire will come from the rocks and devour you."

That is ATS conspiracy site worthy material IMO. Want more?

18) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us, how will our end come?"

Jesus said, "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

20) The disciples said to Jesus, "Tell us what Heaven's kingdom is like."

He said to them, It's like a mustard seed, the smallest of all seeds, but when it falls on prepared soil, it produces a large plant and becomes a shelter for birds of the sky.

22) Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the kingdom."

They said to him, "Then shall we enter the kingdom as babies?"

Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

That is some crazy HAX chakra deep thought jack handy action going on. Why have I never heard of this stuff before?

29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, that is a marvel, but if spirit came into being because of the body, that is a marvel of marvels.

Yet I marvel at how this great wealth has come to dwell in this poverty."

Ok TurkeyBurgers interpretation. Talking about Evolution. Hands down. Jesus was down with Darwin.

Got all the rest of these Thomas lines from

users.misericordia.edu...

Anyway that is all I got that seemed interesting. There are many more lines from old Thomas.

Do any religions incorporate this book into their teachings?

Jesus and the bible were a hoax and should have never become a giant world wide name

Originally posted by meremortal
\"Telling people NOT to give money to a church, telling people to not even GO to church.\"

what? can you quote the part where it says that? if so i would of argued hell not to go there!

I don't remember it ever saying that, but Jesus did say, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

If everybody followed that advice, churches would go out of business. I think if people wrote the bible hoping to get rich they probably should have left this verse out. It's not like anybody ever does what it says anyway, though.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


I believe that as Edmond Dantes said, in The Count Of Monte Cristo: "You need to get out more." If you think that the Jesus story couldn't be done by one of the truly talented authors of modern times, then you need to read more my friend. I truly think that it isn't that good a story, and could be so much better. I haven't bought a book in years, but I tell you this, if one of today's greats in the literary world were to reimagine the Jesus story, I would buy it. Peoples ideals of what constitutes a great writer are varied, but imagine if it were done by King, or Koontz, or Asimov, or Clarke, or you name it. That would be a story worth reading. Imagine a collection, of various greats, each writing their version of events. Sounds like money to me. I consider myself a open-minded atheist, so I think I am the type of person you were referring to. If you take the Jesus story as fantasy fiction, then it just isn't that good. I prefer Greek Myths, and fables myself, if I am looking for stories with lessons. Much easier to understand, no worship required, and none of the inborn guilt. Take from it what you will, but that's my opinion of the christian myth.

Chrono

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
What an amazing human being they describe. Healing sick people, kicking over money changing tables at a temple, questioning religious figures, caring for the poorest of the poor and creating food and water from thin air. Walking on water, communing with god directly, actually being a part of god I guess. He is so freaking HUMBLE and CARING. Going up to a group of people stoning a person to death and saying "he who casts the first stone..." I mean freaking WOW!

I think if there WERE a God and he DID send his son down to Earth I would want it to be THIS GUY!

Good news is, you can be like him!!

The bad news is, people will hate you enough to crucify you(if that practice still exists!)

I'm pretty sure many will get angry for someone trying to heal people without side effects and for free, even more will be mad, when sales start plummeting and people voluntarily leaving jobs and challenging authority for having found something a LOT better..... 'Jesus movement' will surely wreck the economy. At least it's their economy, not ours....

It simply take a leap of faith to do, once your there, it's easy.... Caring for the hopeless and poor is one the greatest fulfillments you'll ever have from another human being(or is it??). It is sweeter than loving, even your own family.. No, the poor, may not love you back, but that is better, because God will love you back.

Originally posted by The Mack
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

no the people who wrote it were people who knew people who knew jesus(if any of it really happened) . Some of them are still listed as a mystery as to who wrote them. And some of the books were written after the apostles died. The earliest book dates after 70 AD, so they are a little after the fact. Now if all this earth shattering god's son on earth buisness was really going on why did the apostles not bother to write about it them selves? Why didn't ANYONE write about anything jesus did, besides the guys who talked to the apostles. It would be like me asking you to write my biography by talking to my brother and then writting it long after my brother dies, with nothing written down to remember it by.

The following are Apostles.

John:
Wrote the Gospel According to John, First John, Second John, Third John, and the Revelation. This totals 5 books, 50 chapters, and 1,414 verses.

Mathew:
Wrote the Gospel According to Matthew.

Peter:
Wrote First and Second Peter.

James:
Credited with writing the Epistle of James.

Paul:
Wrote more books of the New Testament than any other person. He wrote Romans, First and Second Cor, Gal, Eph, Phili, Col, First and Second Thes, First and Second Tim, Titus, and Phile. This totals 13 books, 87 chapters, and 2,033 verses. The author of Hebrews is uncertain although some credit Paul with writing it, also.

To try to rational God, and ask for proof from simply "words" in a book called the Bible, you will never find it.

You can never understand the bible with human logic and understanding. You must know Jesus.

My point is that many peoples arguments in this thread are moot, because Jesus said you have to know Him first, before you can understand. So if you are arguing His words and whom He is, you have to know He also said, unless you know Me, you will never know the truth.

Therefore for an argument to exist in the existence of Jesus is moot, unless you know Jesus.

peace.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by DarksDeception]

[edit on 21-5-2009 by DarksDeception]

I am not so amazed by what Jesus did but what he said. His view is counter to human thinking. He preaches love and tolerance to a world full of people who are for war and separting people out based on their differences. He was the first real rebel!

Originally posted by justsomeboreddude
I am not so amazed by what Jesus did but what he said. His view is counter to human thinking. He preaches love and tolerance to a world full of people who are for war and separting people out based on their differences. He was the first real rebel!

That's right. Jesus message was to die to self (human nature), and be reborn into this higher consciousness, a spiritual consciousness so He can reveal His truth.

Originally posted by Roark

Originally posted by The Mack
reply to post by Roark

 

Please show us this evidence of Jesus, not only I but the entire world would like to know about it. And that Josephus writting was shown to be a forgery. Better yet since jesus was jesus of nazareth, Nazareth since it was worth metioning should have been a place on the map right? There is no proof of a Nazareth existing in the times of christ.

[edit on 21-5-2009 by The Mack]

You want me to "present" the aggregated information here on the forum? C'mon mate, get serious.

Anyone can start themselves off by checking out the following sources:

Pliny the Younger
Tacitus
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus
Mara bar Sarapion
Lucian (the Romano-Syrian)
Celsus
The Q manuscript
The Pauline Epistles
The Babylonian Talmud and other Jewish sources.

Yeah, the Nazareth thing is a peripheral, but interesting, issue. Maybe a discussion for another time/thread, though. I've read a little about it.

Well i see you kind of corrected yourself in the latter post but the Q Manuscript again, if you you proove the existance of this document then the world is waiting to see it. But even that would do more harm for the christians than good. The Q document is supposed to be a source document for Mathew and Luke. And the nazareth thing is not just interesting, it would be like saying that Cesar was a real emperor without ever having been a Rome to look at

[edit on 21-5-2009 by The Mack]

To the OP: None of those things matter. In the end you were not there, you do not know. It is all just a story to you.

Those things you mention aren't even close to what makes Jesus amazing. What makes him so amazing is the understanding of the things he speaks about. His parables give understanding for all to see.

The idols(Jesus) are just messengers. It is not "them" the idol which is important. It is the understanding and message they give to people that is important.

Truth is universal, so you will see those understandings in many cultures. Each with it's own Idol and way of giving those understandings. When I see Horus I don't see - oh it's all fake!! I see the truth is universal and never changes, but the messenger changes from culture to culture. Those who look at the idols and physical do not see these things, but those who look at the understandings and philosophy do.

Focusing on the idols and physical parts of it is like watching the matrix movie and arguing over if neo and the machines are real. They are just tools used to express an understanding. If you aren't focusing on the understanding and philosophy they express, then you didn't "get" the movie. Same thing with the bible. Neo = Jesus in the matrix btw.

What would you think if you gave a cat a bowl of milk, and rather than drinking the milk the cat just licks and praises the bowl that brought the milk? That is what people do with Jesus and the bible. They praise that which brought the understanding but do not partake in the understanding themselves.

Do this. Look at out into the world at the change you would like to see. How can people be peaceful and live among one another without war and destruction. Now, be that change. Afterall, how can a man who steals expect to live in a society without theft? His very presence nullifies that. Thus, if you steal - then you can not live in a society without theft. etc.

Do that, and I bet you will start to see the path. Then you will understand Jesus. Then you can atleast do it for the very works sake. The rest will come in time when you are ready for it.

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Don't worry about "Jesus" to much, remember it is the father who speaks through him that actually does such things, the point is to establish a relationship with the father for yourself. Contrary to what a Christian will tell you, Jesus is not the end all be all. The end all be all is the father within him and all of us.

John 14

24He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Understanding and wisdom is how the father rewards. Such is the only true riches in this world.

www.biblegateway.com...

Proverbs 8
8All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

9They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

10Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.

11For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

....

17I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18Riches and honour are with me; yea, durable riches and righteousness.

19My fruit is better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

21That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

Being atheists/agnostic is fine and all, so long as you don't pin yourself into another box. It's part of seeking the truth. It says - I do not know, and because you do not know then you seek. The atheists who pin themselves are those who constantly look "out there" for evidence, rather than "within". Won't find god "out there", because all that is "out there" is creation.

Looking for god "out there" is like trying to find Bill Gates in your windows program.

Well said badmedia.
I was trying to get that accross earlier. The point of the bible is not a factual history lesson, if that is all people get out of it then they are missing the point. If jesus was proven to be just a copy of previous written works would that change the teachings?

I lump the bible in with Aesop's Fables and the works of Confucius. Great tome by which to live a moral and just life.
Why?

-The Golden Rule predates biblical accounts.
-According to the dead sea scrolls, there were originally over 100 commandments, yet man decided to follow 10.
-There has never been a physical account of the man know as Jesus, only specualtion. They can find a wooly mammoth in England, uncover pyramids and cities lost ages ago beneath sand and stone, but not the most popular man to ever walk on the planet?
-There are too many parallels that date back to a host of ancient cultures, such as Myan, Sumarian, and Egyptian.

Thats just a few. The most powerful reason for my lack of belief is that the first bible I was ever given had that words "King James Version" written on them. Version is defined as "a particular account of some matter, as from one person or source, contrasted with some other account". So, there's my reasoning.

If Adam & Eve were caucasian, where did all the other races come from?