A few dozen quotes of religious conspiracy! “If it weren’t for you, Jesus, I’d be an atheist

Originally posted by OldThinker
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And the quotes....real wisdom there!

Wonder why my critics have been so silent tonight?

OT

Hey!

I'm a critic, but I'm trying to be less acerbic, damnit

Does this count as a third line?

All, thank you for both the positive and negative posts tonight...we'll pick it up tomorrow....

Night!

OT

reply to post by liveandlearn

I will say Jesus was the last remnant of my former faith to go. I will also say this is a lonely path I take and once I even wished I could go back and believe.

I understand this well, losing my faith was the worse things that ever happened to me, I wish I never even researched all the alternative paths,

I was never more content or felt more like no matter what, Jesus had my back, and he was always there when no one else was,

There was an inner strenght in this faith, call it what you will.

Go ahead people and make fun, but i always had that hope one day I would see my family that has passed in heaven, that hope kept me going through many hard times.

I think I may still.

Always had a passion for the day I would look upon the face of Jesus.

reply to post by OldThinker


A great post, OldThinker. Really intriguing. It's a blessing to see such a strong man in Christ here on ATS and at the same time, very aware of their surroundings and the life that goes on outside of his/her own.
May God bless you for all your endeavours, even here on the Internet, to further his kingdom and encourage fellow believers, here on earth!

reply to post by Stormdancer777

I was never more content or felt more like no matter what, Jesus had my back, and he was always there when no one else was,

Yes, I understand. As a child, even into adulthood I wanted to emulate Jesus. And there was a sense of security that he would keep me safe. But that leaves you at a place where you don't take responsibility for the consequences of your own actions other than the effect on your conscious.

I sometimes ask myself if I would do it over again given the fact that I have not found truth and the answer is YES. No matter how lonely I think it is it is better to live knowing that society is based on lies rather than live blindly within the lies.

Like I said it is a lonely path and I am guessing that you can attest to the fact there are few to share your view with except on this board.

edit for misspelling



[edit on 18-5-2009 by liveandlearn]

Fun quotes -- If you're happy with your faith, that's where you belong at the moment and that's just fine. If however, the time comes when you find yourself uncomfortable, restless and loose faith, I hope you will be courageous enough to honestly look elsewhere. As for my faith, I arrived at it by extreme good fortune via the grace of the true Supreme Being and his living servant on earth who shall remain nameless for the moment.

reply to post by OldThinker


Aha, OT , yet another thread quoting other people, obviously you were so busy starting yet another (you desperate for points?) that you forgot to respond ion the last thread.

Never mind here's my last post from there if you'd care to respond -----

reply to post by OldThinker

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Whether they serve as doctors, nurses or dentists, medical professionals serving with Wycliffe are touching the nations with the healing love of Jesus.

So who's love are Atheist and Islamic doctors and nurses touching people with exactly ?

If an Islamic nurse or doctor prays for someone suffering with measles and the measles clear up, then you would agree that this is a miracle from the love of Allah ?

You somehow seem to be claiming that the jesusyahweh god is curing sick people through doctors and nurses, if this is the case then there should be no problem eradicating sickness itself.


At this point I would like to clarify whether or not you believe what the bibles say about illness, in that it is brought about by demons.

Can you also expand on why, if so many doctors and nurses are (allegedly) healing people through prayer and faith not one single amputee in recorded history has had a limb regenerated.

One would normally apply a little logic to this question which would be -

1 Not one xtian has ever asked jesus to heal an amputee

2 Not one xtian actually believes jesus can do it

3 The bibles have been misinterpreted in that, healing people with prayer(faith) was never endorsed by jesus, it's something xtians made up and the ritual continues to perpetuate. IE jesus never actually said that you can heal people by praying.

4 Jesus (praying to him) can cure coughs colds headaches and such but can't do difficult stuff like regenerating a limb .


I note with interest many xtians claim (not necessarily yourself you may agree or not) why they choose to see a doctor, that doctors are in fact tools of jesus healing people.

I recently questioned one xtian as to why he believes that healing through prayer is real, when he has to take continually take medicine from a doctor. Why I asked does he not simply use prayer at church and have jesus cure him.
The insane response to this was that jesus was working through doctors but then I pointed out that his doctor is a Muslim, needless to say the subject was changed very quickly.

Many xtians make these weird and wonderful claims that medicine itself is the work of jesus (obviously to duck the issue of why xtians chooses to see a doctor) yet medicine itself is a science.

Herein lays the dichotomy of xtian belief in healing, xtians believe that medicine which is a science is a result of jesus answering prayers albeit the slow way.

Yet the very same people reject the same scientific method that describes our universe .

Things become more insane and deluded when xtians claim that a spiritualist healer or a shaman is in league with satan, yet (as in the case of the USA) consume millions of tonnes of drugs developed by atheist and Muslim scientists .



Do me a favour please OT, when you respond please use your own words it is pointless quoting reams of other peoples beliefs which you happen to accept. I'm speaking with you not someone who wrote a book one day, long winded convoluted copy and paste do not answer the very simple questions I pose.

What is quite clear from your posts is that your version of xtianity is very very complicate, requiring endless hours studying the opinions of other people. No wonder that people are leaving churches in their droves, their enticed (or born into) into this religion with amazing promises but then spend years listening to one excuse after the other, of how they need to understand.

The story that is sold to the public is of a poor carpenter who is not only the son of god but god himself, and people should come to him in order to have a good life and after life.

It's all spirals down from there and gets very very complicated because there is no evidence to support the extraordinary claims made.

reply to post by OldThinker

“The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God.”

Love that quote. Love you to, OT, though we don't communicate with one another a whole lot. Whenever I'm down and doubting, I always seem to run across one of your posts and your joy and Christian love seemingly pours though the computer screen and picks me right back up!

Shalom!

reply to post by moocowman

So who's love are Atheist and Islamic doctors and nurses touching people with exactly ?

If an Islamic nurse or doctor prays for someone suffering with measles and the measles clear up, then you would agree that this is a miracle from the love of Allah ?

They touch people with the love of God. There is only one God. Though they're not following God in the way he wants, he is still able to work through them and people, though fallen, can still do good things since we're not totally depraved.

You somehow seem to be claiming that the jesusyahweh god is curing sick people through doctors and nurses, if this is the case then there should be no problem eradicating sickness itself. At this point I would like to clarify whether or not you believe what the bibles say about illness, in that it is brought about by demons.

Disease is an effect of the fall. Until God reigns on Earth, there will be sickness.

1 Not one xtian has ever asked jesus to heal an amputee

Do you know every Christian?

2 Not one xtian actually believes jesus can do it

I for one believe that Jesus could heal an amputee. He did give the deaf their hearing and the blind their sight.

3 The bibles have been misinterpreted in that, healing people with prayer(faith) was never endorsed by jesus, it's something xtians made up and the ritual continues to perpetuate. IE jesus never actually said that you can heal people by praying.

Jesus never said that it was wrong to pray for someone to be healed either. In James, Christians are actually told that it's good to pray for someone's healing. When we pray for someone to be healed, it's not the prayer that heals the person, but God.

I recently questioned one xtian as to why he believes that healing through prayer is real, when he has to take continually take medicine from a doctor. Why I asked does he not simply use prayer at church and have jesus cure him.

You're taking this to an silly extreme.

Do me a favour please OT, when you respond please use your own words it is pointless quoting reams of other peoples beliefs which you happen to accept.

What's wrong with quoting people? There isn't anything wrong with that. Isn't that what many anti-Christian people do to "debunk" Christianity? Maybe they should do their own research to then.

What is quite clear from your posts is that your version of xtianity is very very complicate, requiring endless hours studying the opinions of other people

Again, isn't that what many people, [probably even yourself did] do when they decide to belive something--they look at and rely on the works of others more knowledgable then themselves?

It's all spirals down from there and gets very very complicated because there is no evidence to support the extraordinary claims made.

More than that crazy "goo to you" belief. But, our sources "don't count" from every anti-Christian thread I've seen on this site.

reply to post by moocowman



moo, thank you....

yes later tonight I'll respond to your questions...

OT

Originally posted by octotom
reply to post by OldThinker

 

“The greatest act of faith takes place when a man finally decides that he is not God.”

Love that quote. Love you to, OT, though we don't communicate with one another a whole lot. Whenever I'm down and doubting, I always seem to run across one of your posts and your joy and Christian love seemingly pours though the computer screen and picks me right back up!

Shalom!

Hey O!

Glad you joined the thread...thanks...

Remember Hebrews 3:13.....But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness....is not bound by bandwidth!


OT

Originally posted by ReelView
Fun quotes -- If you're happy with your faith, that's where you belong at the moment and that's just fine. If however, the time comes when you find yourself uncomfortable, restless and loose faith, I hope you will be courageous enough to honestly look elsewhere. As for my faith, I arrived at it by extreme good fortune via the grace of the true Supreme Being and his living servant on earth who shall remain nameless for the moment.

....find yourself uncomfortable, restless and loose faith,....


Heck that's a weekly event...that's where/when my best friend JC is carrying me...one set of footprints....ever heard that one.

OT

reply to Old Thinker

3) What is it that got you to the current level of faith or lack there of?
4) Thoughts on this pdf.? joshmcdowellmedia.org...

My favorite CS Lewis saying;

'Learn to think with your heart and love with your head'

I think that Lewis had an extraordinary gift for communicating his faith with simple analogies that were easily understood.

My faith is in constant flux, but nontheless constant. It is a true love hate relationship with God. I've always believed in God but had an enormous problem with Jesus. He is just too weird! My path has involved learning a lot about other spiritual traditions and ideologies but it all came back to God in the end. Then, after much pain, I decided to just go to the cross and face Jesus. No turning back from then!

I cannot download the massive PDF, very costly you know! But I spend little time reading Christian literature.

I look at it with a logic perspective.

You can get a free lottery ticket anytime and anywhere you want and may win a million bucks. Or not and never win.

Heck it's free so why not.

Logic dictates to me it's better to have a chance than to not have one at all.

Hmm chance at eternal life or die and blow away in the wind. I think I'll take my chances.

reply to post by octotom




So who's love are Atheist and Islamic doctors and nurses touching people with exactly ?

If an Islamic nurse or doctor prays for someone suffering with measles and the measles clear up, then you would agree that this is a miracle from the love of Allah ?

They touch people with the love of God. There is only one God. Though they're not following God in the way he wants, he is still able to work through them and people, though fallen, can still do good things since we're not totally depraved.

Only one god ?? Yahweh (being a jealous god) clearly states in your Bibles

""you shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, "

So there you go Octotom you are incorrect on the first point, your God says so not me.

The initial question (to OT) was in relation to xtians claiming that they heal people by praying to jesus this was denied by OT in relation to the verses I quoted

Which takes us right back to this --

"So who's love are Atheist and Islamic doctors and nurses touching people with exactly ? If an Islamic nurse or doctor prays for someone suffering with measles and the measles clear up, then you would agree that this is a miracle from the love of Allah ?"

reply to post by octotom

Disease is an effect of the fall. Until God reigns on Earth, there will be sickness.

So disease is not caused by demons as claimed by many xtians, ?
Please clarify, it is or it is not caused by demons ? This is a very simple yes/no question Octotom.

reply to post by octotom



1 Not one xtian has ever asked jesus to heal an amputee

Do you know every Christian?

You clearly took this sentence way out of context my friend, however seeing that your there why not ask you the same IE.

As no amputated limb has ever been regenerated through prayer to the yahweh jesusgod. Does this mean that.

No extian has ever asked ?

Jesus cannot do it ?

Xtians don't believe jesus can do it ie have no faith ?

Jesus won't do it but will (according to xtians) heal a migraine or some easy stuff.

reply to post by octotom

I for one believe that Jesus could heal an amputee. He did give the deaf their hearing and the blind their sight.

Well if jesus/yahwhe as xtians claim, is the creator of all that there is, well regenerating a limb should be a breeze no ?

The fact remains it's never been done believe all you want, besides my initial response to OT was in relation to xtians claiming that praying to jesus can produce miraculous cures for the sick and the promises jesus made according to the bibles (but disputed by OT)

reply to post by octotom



I recently questioned one xtian as to why he believes that healing through prayer is real, when he has to take continually take medicine from a doctor. Why I asked does he not simply use prayer at church and have jesus cure him.

You're taking this to an silly extreme.

So, are you agreeing that xtian beliefs are silly ?

When grown up adults go around raving how praying to jesus cured a child of some malady or other. How many pastors every Sunday claim the miracles braught upon the sick through prayer.

OT claims that this promise was for the Apostles alone (though he failed to back up his case), if OT is right, then perhaps someone should notify other xtians who seem to believe that he was talking to all.

Mark 11:24:
Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Nevertheless back to being silly as you put it. If as xtians claim, praying to jesus heals the sick (and according to the jesusgod himself) why on earth does an xtian need to see a doctor ?

I suppose your answer will depend a lot upon the previous quyestion I asked, as to whether you believe (as according to the bibles) that sickness is caused by demons.

reply to post by octotom



Do me a favour please OT, when you respond please use your own words it is pointless quoting reams of other peoples beliefs which you happen to accept.

What's wrong with quoting people? There isn't anything wrong with that. Isn't that what many anti-Christian people do to "debunk" Christianity? Maybe they should do their own research to then.

I didn't imply that there's anything wrong with quoting, however, I was having a go at OT for not actually answering questions himself but posting quotations or links to someone else's answer.

In all fairness Octotom this is something you did not do in response to my post you've answered me in your own words, if you needed to qoute a passage from the bible then fine that's reasonable.

Ot rarely responds to posts as he has a tendency to redirect a poster to someone elses viewpoint on a matter EG

OT "Hey moocowman jesus and yahweh are one and the same being"

Moocowman " How's that OT when jesus plainly asks Yahweh, why have you forsaken me lord "?

OT " Yo bro, cool you could comment thanks for the input, yes jesus and yahweh are one and the same. read this and this and this, go to this link and this link then read this this and this. There you go Moo one and the same, you just don't understand."