A few dozen quotes of religious conspiracy! “If it weren’t for you, Jesus, I’d be an atheist

reply to post by octotom



What is quite clear from your posts is that your version of xtianity is very very complicate, requiring endless hours studying the opinions of other people

Again, isn't that what many people, [probably even yourself did] do when they decide to belive something--they look at and rely on the works of others more knowledgable then themselves?

Duh, dude I know this maybe hard for you to grasp but but but not everyone has beliefs.

I'm not criticizing OT for looking to the works of others, I'm having a go at OT for being lazy and not actually thinking for himself.

reply to post by octotom




It's all spirals down from there and gets very very complicated because there is no evidence to support the extraordinary claims made.

More than that crazy "goo to you" belief. But, our sources "don't count" from every anti-Christian thread I've seen on this site.

You have but one source my friend "The bible" but even this simple statement becomes complicated because we immediately note that there are many variations with degrees of variance.

In relation to xtian sources and academics etc, It's interesting to see how even apologists are now seeing xtianity for what it is, Bart Erham has a nice little thread to himself this week.

reply to post by moocowman




Moo, your question about healing amputees has faulty logic and some sketchy assumptions…

Moo you are assuming God has never healed an amputee. Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? It’s a conclusion that simply cannot be drawn my friend… Moo you are assuming God still performs miracles today just as He did in the past. In the thousands of years of history covered by the Bible, we find just four short periods …only four… in which miracles were widely performed (the period of the Exodus, the time of the prophets Elijah and Elisha, the ministry of Jesus, and the time of the apostles). While miracles occurred throughout the Bible, it was only during these four periods that miracles were "common."….Does God’s goodness and love really require Him to heal everyone? NO! Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin…….If God’s love required Him to heal every disease and infirmity, then no one would ever die—because "love" would maintain everyone in perfect health. The biblical definition of love is "a sacrificial seeking what is best for the loved one." What is best for us is not always physical wholeness. Paul the apostle prayed to have his "thorn in the flesh" removed, but God said, "No" because He wanted Paul to understand he didn’t need to be physically whole to experience the sustaining grace of God. Moo you are assuming by your question that God is bound to say "yes" to any prayer offered in faith. Bad assumption- remember the Lord Jesus said, "I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it" Some have tried to interpret this passage as a carte blanche from Jesus promising His agreement to whatever we ask. But this is misreading Jesus’ intent. Notice, first, that Jesus is speaking to His apostles, and the promise is for them. After Jesus’ ascension, the apostles were given power to perform miracles as they spread the gospel. Second, Jesus twice uses the phrase "in My name." This indicates the basis for the apostles’ prayers, but it also implies that whatever they prayed for should be consonant with Jesus’ will. A selfish prayer, for example, or one motivated by greed, cannot be said to be prayed in Jesus’ name. moo you are assuming God’s future healing (at the resurrection) cannot compensate for earthly suffering. The truth is, "our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us . When a believer loses a limb, he has God’s promise of future wholeness, and faith is "being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see". Jesus said, "It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire" Moo,God’s plan is not subject to man’s approval. It isn’t "fair" to amputees? Yet, Scripture is clear that God is perfectly just and in His sovereignty…… answers to no one . A believer has faith in God’s goodness, even when circumstances make it difficult and reason seems to falter. moo,you are assuming God does not exist. This is the underlying assumption on which the whole "why won’t God heal amputees" argument you trumpet. It is an attempt by you to have a “gotcha” moment, huh? Read this for more insight… www.christianbook.com...

Moo the correct assumptions would be…

Miracles aren’t a grab-bag of goodies for us to enjoy; rather, God uses miracles in particular points of time for very specific purposes. God doesn't need to prove Himself to us (we’re on trial, not Him), nor does He “need” to bless us. When He does bless us, it is entirely out of mercy.
God has done greater works than restoring limbs. If He created the entire universe out of nothing, spoke all plants and animals into existence, sculpted and breathed life into the first two humans, and raised His Son from death, it is clear that He has the power to heal amputees if and when it is His will.
If there is no God, why should we care if people have lost limbs? To borrow from C. S. Lewis, in a truly godless world, amputations wouldn’t be “good” or “bad”; they would simply be, a fact of life no different from a tree shedding leaves. Attacking theism on a moral basis undermines the argument.
You qualify your own question with “[e]xcept the ear that Jesus put it back.” You may as well ask, “If God is all-powerful, why did He never part the Red Sea—except for that one time in Exodus?”1 And not only is your argument qualified; it is also, essentially, an argument from silence. Even if the Bible doesn’t record the healing of an amputee, that doesn’t mean God never has.
So far we have conceded your point that, other than the scene in Luke 22, “never, ever in all Bible was a case of an amputation healed.” But is this so? First, it may be that there was no biblical Hebrew, Greek, or Aramaic word for “amputee”2; it is possible that some passages referring to individuals as “lame” or “crippled” (Matthew 15:30, 21:14; John 5:2–9a) are actually referring to those who had lost limbs. Besides, how is healing a totally useless limb any less miraculous than restoring an amputated limb? Second, because of the nature of leprosy, the healings of lepers in the Bible actually does imply the restoration of some body parts, such as fingers

sources: www.answersingenesis.org... .... and ... www.gotquestions.org...


I hope to get to the rest of your fine points later...ps: quit bustin on the ole guy

reply to post by moocowman


Moo, I believe you need calibration....

Salvation is easy!!!!!

Knowing an infinite God is complicated...

OT

reply to post by moocowman



God does heal from answered prayer...

1. "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer in a Coronary Care Unit Population"
MethodsCardiac patients from the San Francisco General Medical Center were randomly divided (using a computer-generated list) into two groups. The names of the patients in the "test" group were given to a group of Christians, who prayed for them while they were in the hospital. The intercessory prayer team members were chosen on the following basis:

Born again Christians on the basis of John 3:35
Led an active Christian life on the basis of
daily devotional prayer
fellowship in a local Christian church
The "placebo" group received no prayer. Neither the "test" nor the "placebo" group of patients knew if they were receiving prayer. Likewise, the hospital staff, doctors, or nurses were "blinded" since they did not know which patient belonged to which group.

ResultsStatistics were acquired from the prayer and placebo groups both before and after prayer, until the patients were discharged from the hospital. There were no statistical differences between the placebo and the prayer groups before prayer was initiated. The results demonstrated that patients who were prayed for suffered "less congestive heart failure, required less diuretic and antibiotic therapy, had fewer episodes of pneumonia, had fewer cardiac arrests, and were less frequently intubated and ventilated." Statistics demonstrated the the prayer group had a statistically significantly lower severity score based upon the hospital course after entry (p < 0.01). Multivariate analysis of all the parameters measured demonstrated that the outcomes of the two groups were even more statistically significant (p < 0.0001). In science, the standard level of significance is when a "p value" is less than 0.05. A value of 0.01 means that the likelihood the result is because of chance is one in 100. A p value of 0.0001 indicates that in only one study out of 10,000 is the result likely to be due to chance. Table 2 from the study is reproduced below. The remarkable thing which one notices is that nearly every parameter measured is affected by prayer, although individually many categories do not reach the level of statistical significance due to sample size. However, multivariate analysis, which compares all parameters together produces a level of significance seldom reached in any scientific study (p < 0.0001). The author points out that the method used in this study does not produce the maximum effect of prayer, since the study could not control for the effect of outside prayer (i.e., it is likely many of the placebo group were prayed for by persons outside of the study). It is likely that a study which used only atheists (who had no Christian family or friends) would produce an even more dramatic result. However, since atheists make up only 1-2% of the population, it would be difficult to obtain a large enough sample size.

ex]


source: www.godandscience.org...

reply to post by OldThinker

Moo, your question about healing amputees has faulty logic and some sketchy assumptions… Moo you are assuming God has never healed an amputee. Who is to say that in the history of the world, God has never caused a limb to regenerate? It’s a conclusion that simply cannot be drawn my friend…

It's a conclusion that is drawn because there is no evidence to show this has ever occurred.

I'm concerned about your logic being faulty here OT let's apply the same logic to a wheelbarrow.

Never in the history of the world has there ever been evidence to show that a wheelbarrow can fly around the sun. Your logic is claiming that I cannot draw this conclusion because a group of people choose to believe without evidence that it did happen or does happen.

That my friend is faulty logic.

reply to post by OldThinker

Moo you are assuming God still performs miracles today just as He did in the past.

Are you claiming your god no longer performs miracles?

Yes or No please OT

What is also interesting OT is the article in the link you provide contradicts what you claim that, jesus' promise in relation to the "ask whatever" thing was for the apostles alone.

.8 He gave this power to His disciples and those who follow Him.9

Indeed OT read that again ".8 He gave this power to His disciples and those who follow Him.9"


Perhaps you guys should all get together and get your story straight no ?

[edit on 19-5-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by OldThinker

.Does God’s goodness and love really require Him to heal everyone? NO! Illness, suffering, and pain are the result of our living in a cursed world—cursed because of our sin…

So your god, the creator of all that there is created a world then cursed it ?
Your god creates a being and puts it in something that it created imperfectly, this would then negate gods omniscience no ?

Our illness suffering and pain are a result of living in a world that that the creator of all that there is cursed, thus any illness or suffering is a direct result of the creator.

Somewhere along the line the creator of all that there is, created something called sin ie the created acted in a way that was not anticipated by the creator, thus negating the omniscience/omnipresence of the creator.

So if I were an xtian I would have to thank god for my illness, as god created it in order to punish me for the sin that it created.

reply to post by OldThinker

Moo you are assuming by your question that God is bound to say "yes" to any prayer offered in faith.

I'm assuming nothing OT as I don't believe what the bibles have to say many xtians claim many different things in relation to what the bibles have to say each claiming the others are wrong. You are just another voice with a different opinion again.

So let me get this straight OT, your opinion is that your god answers prayers with YES/NO/LATER

I believe we touched on this before but you seemed to have avoided the subject, so I'll ask again.

God answers prayers with yes/no/later, do you agree or disagree OT simple yes or no please.

reply to post by OldThinker

moo,you are assuming God does not exist. This is the underlying assumption on which the whole "why won’t God heal amputees" argument you trumpet. It is an attempt by you to have a “gotcha” moment, huh? Read this for more insight…

I'm not assuming anything anything of the sort, no gotcha moment required, just simply asking questions, there you go again read this or that, aren't the bibles enough ?

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by moocowman

 

Moo, I believe you need calibration....

Salvation is easy!!!!!

Knowing an infinite God is complicated...

OT

Amazing isn't it, not only does the creator of all that there is create something to be saved from to begin with but then makes it really difficult and complicated to understand what the hell it's trying to say.

You know what's very sad OT ? that my morals are higher than Yahwehs

mooo....


I have to give it to you...you are consistent man...good job!

A sincere question...am I (a highly educated man) delusional? Have I been talking to myself for 4 decades? And you ignored the "bustin OT" post?

Smile

OT loves you...

ps: I answered your question...right?

What else do you have for me dad? How's the kids? all ok? You are a great dad my man...

Originally posted by moocowman

Originally posted by OldThinker
reply to post by moocowman

 

Moo, I believe you need calibration....

Salvation is easy!!!!!

Knowing an infinite God is complicated...

OT

Amazing isn't it, not only does the creator of all that there is create something to be saved from to begin with but then makes it really difficult and complicated to understand what the hell it's trying to say.

You know what's very sad OT ? that my morals are higher than Yahwehs

moo, it was funny you making fun of OT...yes...

We have fun here (virtually)...

But as a internet friend, please be careful, there, ok?

So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Romans 14:12

Originally posted by moocowman

God answers prayers with yes/no/later, do you agree or disagree OT simple yes or no please.

Yes...simply.

You're thinking for yourself in asking here, huh?

You wouldn't be parroting MILK...?????

'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait'. That is how God answers prayers. You have probably heard this a thousand times, and you believe it completely.

'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' may sound comforting, but here is the thing that I would like to help you understand.

'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' is actually an optical illusion.

Let me show you how this illusion works. Imagine that I put a jug of milk on the counter, and I say to you, "Pray to the jug of milk." I tell you that if you pray to the jug of milk, it will answer all your prayers. You are skeptical, but you agree to try it. You pray to the jug of milk to give you 1,000.

Now I say to you, "The jug of milk answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Let's see what happens."

What is going to happen? There are three scenarios:

Scenario 1: Out of the blue, a check for $1,100 arrives in the mail tomorrow. It is an unexpected tax refund check from the IRS. I say to you, "See! The jug of milk answered your prayer!"

Scenario 2: Seven weeks later, out of the blue, you get a cost-of-living raise and it happens to increase your salary by $1,200 per year. I say to you, "See! The jug of milk answered your prayer! You just had to wait patiently."

Scenario 3: Nothing happens for six months. You ask me, "Why?" I say, "We have to trust that the milk jug knows what’s best. Let's be patient."

link: whywontgodhealamputees.com...

moo, you do not want to hear this...there have been experiences in your life that have influenced you and influenced your 'disbelief' system...do some introspection...ok?

My savior is not pushy, he's a gentlemen...don't ignore his promptings, please?

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker


My savior is not pushy, he's a gentlemen...don't ignore his promptings, please?

OT

Your Saviour may not be pushy, but some of the people who content to speak for him/her/it are most definitely pushy!

I am not a believer, it's not that my belief system has been disabled, it's more that my bullshot detector is on high alert.

reply to post by OldThinker




Originally posted by moocowman

God answers prayers with yes/no/later, do you agree or disagree OT simple yes or no please.

Yes...simply. You're thinking for yourself in asking here, huh? You wouldn't be parroting MILK...?????

Hoorah we've finally got you to answer something OT .

Yes OT I am as I always do, think for myself.

No OT I'm not parroting milk, milk is posing a question than "many" ask, Milk is a tool used to to ask questions not unlike when you (sometimes) post a video to ask questions eg the thank god it's friday/sunday thing.

Nevertheless OT the question remains the same in relation to the Yes/No/Wait scenario .

The result of praying with a yes/no/wait scenario will always remain the same as the result of praying to anything else.

Assuming that you OT ask in prayer of jesus how do you reconcile the fact that you'll get the same result from asking in prayer of your coffee mug ?

So first off OT could you agree or disagree as to whether the result of asking in prayer in yes/no/wait/scenario to jesus, will always be the same as asking an inanimate object.

Should you disagree please explain, (without posting links or bible verses) a nice simple explanation from you to explain what be a false logic, will do fine.

reply to post by OldThinker

moo, you do not want to hear this...there have been experiences in your life that have influenced you and influenced your 'disbelief' system...do some introspection...ok?

Dude what you and many (but not all) xtians need to hear is this ---
Many many people around the world (myself included) don't come into the world and progressively lose a belief of something.

I/we never had the belief instilled in us to begin with, you need to work very hard now OT, I (sincerely) know that could be difficult for you to grasp this concept.

What is obvious is that you can't for a moment consider that people like me (which are millions) do a lot of introspection.
We ask ourselves questions like "Why do all these people keep telling us that we should believe this or that, or life is so much better when lived like them?"

When we take the trouble to investigate the claims made by the people brought up with this way of thinking we're unable to find the evidence to substantiate the claims made.

Your started point is completely upside down OT, "everybody" is born an atheist my friend beliefs are learned mainly as children.

Should you OT have been born in Iran, then in all likelihood this thread would be about Allah, and I would be asking you to provide evidence of flying horses before you insist that I get on one with you and experience a great ride.

There is no "system" to disbelief OT , belief is acquired not inherent, you simply do not relate to this at all.

An Amway Rep simply cannot understand why everyone in the world wouldn't want to sell washing powder, maybe you should find time to observe these people OT. Maybe after some introspection you may learn something about other people, just maybe you may learn something of yourself.


[edit on 20-5-2009 by moocowman]

reply to post by OldThinker

My savior is not pushy, he's a gentlemen...don't ignore his promptings, please?

We are talking about Yahweh here right ?

NOT PUSHY ????????????????????

This is the same god that get jealous, if you so much as think of one of the other gods ?

This is the same god that commanded people to worship it or be put to death ?

This is the same god that will kill you and torture you for all eternity if you reject it ?


NOT PUSHY ?????? A Gentleman ?

You sound like a doting mother making excuses for her son who beats his wife OT.

Again yes no answers please OT .

reply to post by OldThinker

But as a internet friend, please be careful, there, ok? So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God. Romans 14:12

Dude, let's pretend for a second your right, I die and suddenly I'm in front of Yahweh and he's mightily pissed that I didn't believe what he told other people to tell me.

What would my response be do you think ?

Knowing me maybe something like this -

Father, when my son was born I saw perfection in his imperfections, you did not.

When my son cried I spoke to him personally so he would recognize my voice, you did not.

When my son was ill, I got him well, you did not.

When my son needed my personal assurance, I was there, you were not.

When my son needed learning, I taught him, you did not.

When my son asked my advice I gave it to him, you did not.

When my son seeks his own life, I will allow him to have it you would not.

When my son rejects me, you would kill him,

I WOULD NOT

reply to post by moocowman

So disease is not caused by demons as claimed by many xtians, ?

Did you not read my response? Based on what I said, no, is the answer to "is disease caused by demons". Disease is an effect of the fall. No Christian that I know has said that disease is called by Christians.

Also, there is only one God. I could leave Christianity and start worshiping the god of pancakes and go and perform open heart surgury on someone and save their life and that doesn't change the fact that there is only one God.

Any good that is done in the world reflects YHWH God's love on the Earth.