Draft/Armed Forces Question

Originally posted by mauskov
It's got nothing to do with my willingness-or lack of - to die for something I do or do not believe in. It has everything to do with the fact that yes, it's a decision I've made for myself. It's not the same decision to be made for everyone else.

But in a country (and I can already smell all of the contemptful anti-americans coming like vulture to carrion) that has so clearly provided you so much and given you a chance to make such a clear success of yourself, the idea that you don't even feel a bit of ...how do i put this lightly? ... a bit of a desire to give something back. That's what disgusts me.

But then again, it's America. You're allowed to do that, that's what makes it great: You can be frightened about the draft and spout all your successes, and besides my own ranting, I can't do much about it. I'd just hope that my chronological peers would be at least able to recognise that it might be time to give something back to a land that's given you so much.

Just to be clear, your whole point is that in order to be thankful for what I have, I have to die for it?

Can't I give back by doing other things?

Originally posted by scottsquared
Mauscov,

I agree with your sentiment, no real growth can be attained without sacrifice. I also am a proponent of mandatory national service, one or two years, just to get everybody trained. Conciencious objectors would be assigned to logistical support.

We don't have national service. DZ is not compelled to join the military. He is however required to register for the draft. A draft cannot be initiated without an act of congress. Should that sad day come, and should DZ's number come up, then he would have a decision to make.

DZ, you know what those choices would be. This is a hypothetical discussion about a very serious, entirely possible senario. You will NOT know what to do until you are faced with a decision of this magnitude. All of the intellectual bull s... aside, you have a choice. Now THAT is worth something!

I agree very much so. I'm not saying this country isn't great. All I'm saying is I do not want to die for something I do not believe in. I do not believe we are justified in bombing all of Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm sorry, but those countries had 1000's of years of history and we blew it all up in the name of terrorism? That's crap. And not even that. The whole, entire war on terrorism is unjustified. Now before anything, don't think that I am saying the attacking of the Twin Towers was ok. I'm not at all, it's horrific what happened. But what I am trying to say is that killing all those people in Afghanistan and Iraq will not solve what happened.

If the government were to come to me and say "we need your help re-writing computer programs that can detect airplanes that are off course" or something that can actually help us, then yes I am more than willing to help. But when the government comes to me and says "we need your help killing people in a country we dont belong in", then no.

I believe in catching who did the killing of the WTC. I believe in stopping terrorism. I believe that one day we might all possibly be peaceful with eachother. I DONT believe that the route we've taken is the way to get there though, and I will not support it no matter how selfish, arrogant, or spoiled it may make me look.

Originally posted by scottsquared
no real growth can be attained without sacrifice. I also am a proponent of mandatory national service, one or two years, just to get everybody trained.

Ok. No offense to you guys who believe in this nazi stuff but.....you may want to plug your ears for this...

W
A
R
N
I
N
G

S
P
A
C
E

This is the biggest pile of bull# I've ever heard in my LIFE !!! In fact, it stinks to high heaven !

So the fact that this guy intends a happy life with his girl means nothing to you ? You're willing to totally deny him this in the name of senseless killing and fighting. Have any of you ever considered what this might do to his girlfriend should anything happen to him ? Do you even CARE that the ONLY thing wars produce is even MORE hatred and fighting.

I really would like to know of just ONE war that has EVER solved anything and put an end to war forever. There isn't one because men like YOU injest too much testosterone, that's why.

It's his life. None of you seem to get this basic piece of information. If he chooses to go, it's his business, if he doesn't, same thing. Either way, Nunya !

Oh, wait, I'm not quite finished yet. What's this "no real growth can't be attained without sacrifice" # ?

What do you call going to school and studying your ass off, most likely holding a job at the same time and then spending the rest of your best years working your ass off to pay the bills and maybe, just maybe enjoy a little of the good life ? To the detriment many times of family and loved ones who need time with you. I hope nobody is cruel enough to tell me that isn't sacrifice.




[Edited on 4-5-2004 by KayEm]

This has turned into a debate/flame war of those in the military vs those who arent, patriot vs pacifist, RIGHT vs WRONG, liberal vs conservative, Republican vs Democrat, and last but not least, Left vs Right. I can't wait to read all the controversial and just plain idiotic things said from both sides. I think I'll update this post with things I want to comment on rather than creating new replies for each one. Onward.

/E: Look below. LOOONG rant

[Edited on 5/5/04 by xenophanes85]

I don't consider this a flame war at all. I consider it as defending somebody who the repugnants are beating up on.

I mean, it IS his life after all. What businesss is it of anybodies what he does with his own life ?

It all comes down to nunya

I agree. I'm on your's and dz's side. I read your comment about generation gap and its true. They think just becasue they're older, they can push us around and make us fight for the effects of what happened in their younger days? I'm not saying they were the cause of it, but not doing something could have casued it too. Radical Patriots - young OR old - if YOU believe in this act of terrorism (Iraq 'War' is a term created by you delusional Radical Patriots to excuse MURDER and violence in the name of toppling Terrorism), why don't YOU go fight? Or, you could send your own children to fight if and when you have them. We'll see what stance you'll take on the draft and War/Terrorism in general.

Dubya's an idiot. Whoever is opposed to any warfare/terrorism is not. Terrorism is relative. War is a synonym of Terrorism. If this world weren't full of people like you, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation. Maybe 'war' wouldn't ever have entered the human vocabulary. You think war is glorious. You think it's for a good cause. But you are only really making the situation worse. Perpetuating it. The 'short term fix' (ie. murdering, destruction, violence) may seem good enough to people like you, but the 'long term concequences' (ie. mutual retaliation) will just rise up (usually put down with 'short term fixes'). A deadly, viscious cycle.

It's like gang wars with the US and Iraq as the gangs. We 'drive-by' a member of theirs, they break one of our members knees, we get them back, they get us back, so on, and so on. Forever. And the gangs' members won't deplete as more and more are killed. They just recruit more. Sons, daughters, freinds. A deadly, viscious cycle.

I propse two types of Patrotism.
Waving the American flag is great - that is an aspect of Non-Violent Patriotism. Radical, Arrogant, Violent Patrotism is what you pro-war people believe in. First of all, it is not much different that Radical Islam - its all for a cause. Second of all, supposedly this country is 'Christian based'. Iraq is obviously 'Islam based'. Would that mean the policy makers and pro-war activists are promoting a Jihad? Would that mean they are Jihadists? Would that make them hypocrites? Yes, yes and yes.

Originally posted by dz
... But what I am trying to say is that killing all those people in Afghanistan and Iraq will not solve what happened.

If the government were to come to me and say "we need your help re-writing computer programs that can detect airplanes that are off course" or something that can actually help us, then yes I am more than willing to help. But when the government comes to me and says "we need your help killing people in a country we dont belong in", then no.

I believe in catching who did the killing of the WTC. I believe in stopping terrorism. I believe that one day we might all possibly be peaceful with eachother. I DONT believe that the route we've taken is the way to get there though, and I will not support it no matter how selfish, arrogant, or spoiled it may make me look.

Why can't the world's leaders think like you and our fine sister in pacifism here, my freind? I'm sure the world would be a much safer, happier place. Although there is something I must disagree on. Terrorism cannot be stopped, it can be prevented (through computer programs like you suggested), but not stopped. Radical Patriots/Jihadists will always exist on both sides, and becasue of that, War/Terrorism will always exist.

Originally posted by KayEm
What do you call going to school and studying your (c) off, most likely holding a job at the same time and then spending the rest of your best years working your (c) off to pay the bills and maybe, just maybe enjoy a little of the good life ? To the detriment many times of family and loved ones who need time with you. I hope nobody is cruel enough to tell me that isn't sacrifice.

Very, VERY nice answer - you couldn't be more right. I love answering questions with a question. Rhetoric is great.

Originally posted by dz
Why? Instead of blabbing and calling me spoiled, tell me how I am. Instead of saying that I should be sent to war, tell me why you think I should. How does it strike you that I'm an instance in which mandated military service would be good? What, do you think I don't appreciate what I have? No, I whole-heartedly do. Everyday I do. That's why I don't want to throw it all away in the name of a buffoon with a title.

Ah. Rhetoric. There it is again. Why is it so damn popular? 10 bucks says musakov was planning to ignore or avoid answering those potentially devastating questions. But of course he is going to answer them now becasue I brought it up. Oops.

Flame away Jihadists.

[Edited on 5/5/04 by xenophanes85]

Originally posted by dz
But what I am trying to say is that killing all those people in Afghanistan and Iraq will not solve what happened.

I believe in catching who did the killing of the WTC. I believe in stopping terrorism.

I am a little confused here. You say that you do not believe killing terrorists will solve any problems, but you believe in stopping terrorism. Would you prefer that we sit down with them and discuss the problems of the world and how we can solve them?

You can't stop terrorism until you have eliminated all of the terrorists through whatever means you choose.

"How to further polarize an issue." byXeno and KayEm
a fairy tale

You have the audacity to call going to school a sacrifice!?! What are you sacrificing? Some gnarly waves you could have been riding, Dude? Some snuggle time with your paramour?

I went to university after serving my time in the Army. Four and five classes per semester while working 40+ hours per week. That's not sacrifice. Watering down the concept to suit your limited definition doesn't make it real.

I have posted to this forum numerous times and I have NEVER said that poor little DZ must fight in Iraq. I do NOT agree with this president and I do NOT agree with this war. You whinny bitches are symptomatic of exactly what is wrong in the USA. An undue scense of entitlement has gotten Americans stuck in zero progress and or decline. Sacrifice, in as watered down a definition as I will allow means to give-up something of great importance to one's self for the greater good of all. The origin of the word meant nothing less than giving-up of LIFE for what was preceived as the greater good. Going to school and working for a house, a nice ride, and peacefull fullfillment may be nice and even of benefit to society as a whole, it is NOT sacrifice, it is self-serving.

I would like to add to my previous assertion of suppport for national service. I can readily support some version of the Americorps as an alternative to those morally opposed to military service. "Service" seams to be a foriegn concept to you knee-jerk extremist bafoons. Do something that helps someone, anyone, besides your self.

Originally posted by scottsquared
"Service" seams to be a foriegn concept to you knee-jerk extremist bafoons. Do something that helps someone, anyone, besides your self.

'Service' should be voluntary. When it is demanded, it is no longer true service. After all, if a person is forced to do something, they will never give their all. If, on the other hand, they choose to do something - voluntarily - they are more inclined to give more.

Originally posted by Pisky

'Service' should be voluntary. When it is demanded, it is no longer true service. After all, if a person is forced to do something, they will never give their all. If, on the other hand, they choose to do something - voluntarily - they are more inclined to give more.

That is not true. What about something like the education system? When I was growing up it was the law that you will attend school. Being forced to go to school did not make me give any less than if I would have volunteered to go to school. Instead I worked hard at it and got good grades.

What about Drivers ed? No one forces you to go to that in America. Did I do any worse at it because I had to go to it, no.

Originally posted by scottsquared
"How to further polarize an issue." byXeno and KayEm
a fairy tale

You have the audacity to call going to school a sacrifice!?! What are you sacrificing? Some gnarly waves you could have been riding, Dude? Some snuggle time with your paramour?

I went to university after serving my time in the Army. Four and five classes per semester while working 40+ hours per week. That's not sacrifice. Watering down the concept to suit your limited definition doesn't make it real.

I have posted to this forum numerous times and I have NEVER said that poor little DZ must fight in Iraq. I do NOT agree with this president and I do NOT agree with this war. You whinny bitches are symptomatic of exactly what is wrong in the USA. An undue scense of entitlement has gotten Americans stuck in zero progress and or decline. Sacrifice, in as watered down a definition as I will allow means to give-up something of great importance to one's self for the greater good of all. The origin of the word meant nothing less than giving-up of LIFE for what was preceived as the greater good. Going to school and working for a house, a nice ride, and peacefull fullfillment may be nice and even of benefit to society as a whole, it is NOT sacrifice, it is self-serving.

I would like to add to my previous assertion of suppport for national service. I can readily support some version of the Americorps as an alternative to those morally opposed to military service. "Service" seams to be a foriegn concept to you knee-jerk extremist bafoons. Do something that helps someone, anyone, besides your self.

"How to be a Pompous Asshole" By Scottsquared

First of all, I don't appreciate being called a Bitch OR a Buffoon (that's the correct spelling by the way).

The question that keeps nagging at my mind as I read replies such as yours is "Why does he care WHAT Dz does with his life ?"

Originally I was going to make only one post, calling for you guys to leave the poor guy alone and MYOB, but then I saw the torment and "jerki-ness" going on so of course I just had to jump back in here.

How is it that you old baby boomer types, who are the single handedly biggest self-serving demographic there is, DARE to call us younger generation self-serving and basically lazy.

Ummm...isn't it US who are working our asses off and having our paychecks robbed to pay YOUR social security, even though a lot of you are rich already and don't even NEED it ?

Self-serving to go to school....incur debt there, Oh yeh...Old mates. SUPER FUN !

Self-serving to go to work and work 50 hours a week, and as a bonus because corporations know nothing about being loyal to the employee anymore, not having any job security whatsoever.

Self-serving to work the job of two, sometimes three, because corporations have "down-sized" (another pretty little word there to cover up the sins of the greedy).

Ohhh..yeh...You got us, Scott..we admit it, we're TOTALLY self-serving and complete layabouts. Uh huh.

Listen...you old fogies have got to get over the "If it's good enough for us, it should be good enough for you" mindset.

I can just see you turning purple and smoke coming out of your ears. Just because everybody else doesn't think the same as you.

IMO, it's people like YOU that are wrong with the world today. Your demographic is pretty well set up and secure (Do I smell self-serving here ? Peeee-ewwww !) and you think the younger person has no other function in life but to do your bidding and say "how high" when you yell "Jump".

Piss off, please.

Kay-Em
Where do you get off calling me pompus? Have you even read all of the postings in this thread? First of all, DZ ASKED for opinion, specifically, he asked "I guess I just wanna know how far they can go to make you do what they want you to do" The answer: If you cannot prove that you are a concientious objecctor then you go to prison. THAT is the long and short of it, period!

Get off your high-hobby-horse little girl and try thinking and researching before inserting your little painted toenails into your flapping jaws.

You know what I have concluded after reading all these posts in this thread? We are dealing with two seperate views of Patrotism strengthened by a generation gap and/or seperate views of the morality/justification of War. You can be Patriotic and not kill someone or promote a War/Terrorism. You can have your opinion on War. But when your opinion causes me go to War, risk my life, and possibly have to kill someone, you must ask yourself how is it opinion? Opinion shouldn't force other people to change to your expectations becase then it wouldn't be opinion anymore. I just want to live a successful, peaceful life like you older generations had. I don't want to have to worry about being sent over to a country with 2000 years of festering hostility towards my culture. I do not wan't to kill someone, no matter what they did to my country. If I did, I would be just like them (the Radical Muslims). Remind me how that is justfied and not hypocritical?

To clear up a few things on why I consider War and Terrorism synonyms, read on. Does War cause 'terror' in the hearts and minds of those involved? Does War nurse hate towards the opposition? Does War promote vengance and grudges? Does War cause social, moral, and infrastucture collapse? Does war create sadness and greiving for those who died? Is War a good thing? Now, ask yourself the same questions and put Terrorism in place of War.

War is Terrorism, Terrorism is War.

[Edited on 5/5/04 by xenophanes85]

Originally posted by scottsquared
Kay-Em
Where do you get off calling me pompus? Have you even read all of the postings in this thread? First of all, DZ ASKED for opinion, specifically, he asked "I guess I just wanna know how far they can go to make you do what they want you to do" The answer: If you cannot prove that you are a concientious objecctor then you go to prison. THAT is the long and short of it, period!

Get off your high-hobby-horse little girl and try thinking and researching before inserting your little painted toenails into your flapping jaws.

And where do YOU get off calling me a buffoon and a bitch ?

Oh..and I am not a "little girl" either...I'm a WOMAN and quite frankly I resent your comparisons and likening me to these young braindead barbie doll Jessica Simpson clones.

I know full well what Dz asked in the original post. If you people could have answered him without the insinuations and calling him arrogant and selfish, maybe I wouldn't have gotten into this at all. But I can't stand to see someone ganged up on.

But when you throw in stuff like "If you can't prove you are a conscientous objector you go to prison" Of COURSE we're gonna start debating whether this is right or wrong (in case you don't know already...I would consider this WRONG).

And since when do you need to do research in order to post your opinion and feelings on an issue ?

Originally posted by COOL HAND

That is not true. What about something like the education system? When I was growing up it was the law that you will attend school. Being forced to go to school did not make me give any less than if I would have volunteered to go to school. Instead I worked hard at it and got good grades.

Actually, I don't really consider school as 'service' - more like improving yourself (if your teachers are any good).
But you are right in your comments - I did not make myself clear enough. There are people who are self-disciplined enough to actually give their best despite being forced, but I hazard a guess that the majority are not. Was there not a particular school lesson that you disliked and resented having to attend ? Did you give as much attention to that subject as to the ones you enjoyed ?. I know that I gave more to the subjects that I enjoyed than to the ones I mererly tolerated.

Originally posted by scottsquared
Kay-Em
Where do you get off calling me pompus?

Actually, I believe she called you a 'Pompous Asshole'
It did amuse me that you complained about being called 'Pompous' but not about being called an asshole.

Could it be that that you really are an .... surely not !

Didn't feel like reading the entire thread, *effort*.

By living in the USA, you agree to the rights and privileges afforded to being here. That being said, it does come with a price. Yes, if you get drafted you will have to serve. You can try the objecter route, but you'll spend time in prison. You can try not listening, you'll spend time in prison, or get booted out with a BCD.

Oh yeah, Marine Corps and Navy still call it Boot Camp. Army and Air Force are Basic Training.

Originally posted by xenophanes85
This has turned into a debate/flame war

I attempted to formally adress DZ's fears of a draft on the last page of 5 and first part of page 6. I handed him his ass by proving my point with evidence he gave that was supposed to prove me wrong. Then he went silent and resumed picking on the superpatriots. I think blame for what has happened here rests on everyone.

Originally posted by Agent47

Originally posted by xenophanes85
This has turned into a debate/flame war

I attempted to formally adress DZ's fears of a draft on the last page of 5 and first part of page 6. I handed him his ass by proving my point with evidence he gave that was supposed to prove me wrong. Then he went silent and resumed picking on the superpatriots. I think blame for what has happened here rests on everyone.

lol you handed me my ass? how about the fact that i dont feel like debating whether or not the draft was going to be instated. i think the fact that the president put 28 million dollars into selective service and has more wars planned is justification enough for a draft being instated.

Originally posted by dz
lol you handed me my ass? how about the fact that i dont feel like debating whether or not the draft was going to be instated. i think the fact that the president put 28 million dollars into selective service and has more wars planned is justification enough for a draft being instated.

Once again, edit down your quotes, its save space and makes posts more legible. If you dont feel like debating then go to some board for cry babies. Presidents put money into a lot of things and 28 million is sure not enought to kick start a draft into high gear. Get a grip, 28 mil is chump change in federal spending. If the government was planning a draft they would allocate more than a lottery prize. What wars are planned? Do you have an inside track into our war room?

Justification eh? Last time you tried justifying something I used your evidence against you. Go ahead continue to debate with the politicos about your rights but dont question when you get served for trying to misrepresent the facts..

[Edited on 5-5-2004 by Agent47]

Originally posted by dz

Just to be clear, your whole point is that in order to be thankful for what I have, I have to die for it?

Can't I give back by doing other things?

What are you, daft? I'm not saying you have to hold a blade to your throat for America, I'm saying that it wouldn't be such a bad idea for you to consider doing something selfless: That is, not for your own profit. It's fine and well that you've been working since you were twelve, or what have you. But joining the military doesn't mean getting yourself blown up or suddenly turning into a killing machine.

It means getting the chance to serve the public equally, without regard to the private sector. It is something in our world which remains one of the few nobilities left. So start giving back to society then; you can't just throw your wallet at it and hope money's enough. Join the coast guard, be a park ranger. Do something to benefit everyone, not just yourself.

That's what I mean about spoiled.
Maybe you haven't had everything handed to you on a silver platter, but you've certainly given the impression that you've existed primarily for your own purpose. I'm a stringent objectivist follower, but even your selfishness is of the top-quality sort that even makes me seethe; particularly when I read your naitivitee-ridden yammerings.