Perceptions, Reality, Imagination

reply to post by JohnD


we are all the same no matter what are views .. NOTHING can set us apart for we are all alive..

i shall just post this and i do not want to go off topic but its a thread i made to understand ATS and our own questions and why we seek them and what is going on here..

www.abovetopsecret.com...

I cry a lot and i am not ashamed to admit it.. life as we know it is not right and i am not a fan of the bible in many ways but

EVIL is real It is keeping us all apart confused brain dead and killing our souls in a profound way.

And we need to stop it any way we can... and violence is not the answer.. its in our hearts that is our weapon.

I'd like to respond to your ideas of perception, reality, and imagination as it relates to human interactions and relationships. This applies to RL and ATS communications.

I find most disagreements and discord to be a failure of communication abilities. An error in perception or comprehension of reality as it relates to what another is saying or trying to convey. If the information is poorly represented or unclear - a lot of times instead of asking for clarification we humans 'matrix' the blank parts and thus creating misunderstanding and sometimes disharmony.

Many times if we take a break in arguement and repeat what we think we are hearing - it is inaccurate. Due to our own personal enviromental conditionings we interpret one reality of the conversation when the speaker could be saying something totally different. This is where active listening comes in to play. If we take the time to quiet our own minds and truly hear what another is saying, *not* what we are going to say next, we may indeed process the information being relayed more clearly. If not, don't assume - ask back "so, are you saying....." and see what the response is from there.

I've seen this so often in relationships with others. Listening to both sides of an arguement, you can see how indeed there are two realities of the situation. I've seen this in my own life as well, when reconnecting after a disagreement I've seen where myself or the other party says "oh, I thought you meant this..."

Finally, I too believe we are diminsional beings. The dream world being just another way to access these other realities. I've trained myself for over twenty years in dream recall and I find I work out a lot of issues and problems in my dream world. Ask a question before you sleep and often receive a solution in dreams.

Great thread!

Edit: Oh yeah "Where's that confounded bridge?!"

[edit on 5/6/2009 by Whisper67]

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
reply to post by Studious

 

ahh studious !! i was not refering to u sir!!!

others i should have said insult(ed) sorry that was my mistake not yours !!!!

but i do understand the context to your post !! that was my bad spelling sir and sorry for misunderstanding.

Oh, I see now.

I thank you for you kindness.

Originally posted by Whisper67
a lot of times instead of asking for clarification we humans 'matrix' the blank parts and thus creating misunderstanding and sometimes disharmony.

Yes this does occur from time to time (If I understand this correctly )

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

Originally posted by Whisper67
Ask a question before you sleep and often receive a solution in dreams.

Edit: Oh yeah "Where's that confounded bridge?!"

[edit on 5/6/2009 by Whisper67]

I have done this myself. It can work. The human brain is amazing!

Edit: Error post. Sorry


[edit on 6-5-2009 by Studious]

reply to post by Astyanax


Actually yes. That is a conclusion that I have some to.
Now I am not saying that my conclusion is in fact true. LOL

Edited to add: After reading Studious post I may have to re-think that or discuss it further.

Hey everyone I am at work now and might not be able to reply to everyone.
It depends on if my boss is around.
I will do my best.

Thanks for all your great participation.

Wow such deep insights there will be no quick replies.
I have to give you all the consideration you deserve!

[edit on 6-5-2009 by cindymars]

This is a great thread; I think that all of it is valid. I think that everything is relative to the viewer/individual. Good and evil, right or wrong are even relative, depending on where you are and what you believe.

I often dream total alternate realities where I exist and it is "real" and when I wake up it's as if I'm just dreaming another reality. Maybe when I die here, I will wake up somewhere else and say, "That was a strange dream" and go about my "life".

Studious explained my position very well. Good work, sir or ma'am.

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger
you see WE "for me" are the reason for the mathematical equation and can not leave us out of it...

we include the observer

In that case you believe in a multiplicity of truths, because all of us see things differently.

A multiplicity of truths cannot all be true, or realities would collide.

So there has to be only one truth. It may be perceived in different ways, but the ways can only be complementary, not antagonistic to one another - because if two propositions are antagonistic, one has got to lose. In some cases a synthesis may be possible at a deeper level, but then, of course, you'd end up with one truth all over again.

One truth: one reality.

when i was a kid doing mathematics the teacher in my class said that was wrong but i said sir .. am i not the one doing the calculation? he said no it does not work that way??

It's not really to do with mathematics. It's to do with the fact that things happen, and try as we may, we cannot avoid their consequences - at least not without creating other consequences.

[edit on 6/5/09 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by Astyanax
If truth is merely a matter of perception, then there is no truth.

Is this what you believe, OP? That there is no truth?

Although there are people who do believe there is no truth, and this may be exactly what Cindy means, I think this relates in a larger way to life and perceptions, to all things in one way because our perception still filters life through its many changing colored lenses, yet in certain tangible ways there is truth that is shared. If my breakfast consists of an a bowl of yogurt and fruit, this not merely perception, but a truth and reality whether my breakfast is eaten in solitude or communally. Events, occurrences and objects can be analyzed and studied, presented in courts of law, and are often shared. Though these things still are seen through perceptional lenses.

However, our minds, perceptions, realities are the greatest factors in shaping our lives, and our spiritual growth. The potential we have far exceeds the narrow dogma that is presented by this world and its limits. Imagination, creativity, perception, and freedom to explore all of these are our greatest resources.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by mystiq]

reply to post by mystiq

However, our minds, perceptions, realities are the greatest factors in shaping our lives, and our spiritual growth.

If this is what you believe, perhaps it is well and good, but I, for one, can make no sense of it. Mind, perception and reality are three very different things.

Mind is not a term easily defined, nor is it possible to prove that minds actually exist the way brains, for example, so evidently do. At any rate, it is quite clear that our minds - our 'conscious' minds - do not shape our lives, but vice versa - if at all (I say nothing of spirit; the decline of religion has made a harlot of that word).

Perception, technically, is something that happens to minds, though its nature may be something mind causes to happen. I believe you are using the word in a different sense, though, as a synonym for 'opinion', or more accurately point of view. In this sense, someone's perception (point of view) may render reality very accurately, but that does not make it identical to reality.

Reality is reality. In a metaphorical sense, we can say we all inhabit different realities. This is the effect of perception (in the technical sense) and is derived from the fact that each of us, as an entity in space and time, is unique. But all these different perceptions of reality are not equally valid because they are not equally true: and this is the weak point at which the hammer of reality shatters our carefully-constructed illusions. Afterwards, experience sifts the fragments.

The potential we have far exceeds the narrow dogma that is presented by this world and its limits. Imagination, creativity, perception, and freedom to explore all of these are our greatest resources.

I give you Nietzsche:

The strange fact is that all there is or has been on earth of freedom, subtlety, boldness, dance and masterly certainty has evolved only by virtue of the 'tyranny of such arbitrary laws'*... Every artist knows how far from the feeling of letting himself go his 'natural' condition is and how strictly and subtly he then obeys thousandfold laws which precisely on account of their severity and definiteness mock all formulation in concepts. The essential thing seems to be a protracted obedience in one direction...

Beyond Good and Evil, V, 188

A very different viewpoint, but some will know the truth of it from their own midnight struggles. Are you an artist, mystiq?

*You would say 'narrow dogma and its limits'.

Originally posted by Studious
Mirror Neurons

Thanks for the link. Very interesting!

The most interesting part for me was the very first sentence:

A mirror neuron is a neuron which fires both when an animal acts and when the animal observes the same action performed by another animal.

The question then, is how do we know if a particular neuron is firing because we are acting, or because we are seeing something/someone act? Since the same neuron fires in both cases, it still doesn't really show whether our experiences in our dreams can be separated (in terms of their validity as 'real' experiences) from our experiences in what we choose to call 'physical reality'.

It also opens up the question of whether the entire existence that my so-called 'I' is experiencing is nothing more than 'me' seeing these things happen, rather then me being directly involved in their happening. Bizarre!

Originally posted by symmetricAvenger

you want to expand your mind your spirit ? look no further than the sky because that is YOUR MIND

enjoy it

; )) i was told this when i died in my sleep

"no flashy lights by the way or tunnels"

but it was epic lol

Thing is I follow the spiritual teachings of Eckhart Tolle who speaks we are NOT our mind. We are consciousness trapped in an out of control mind. The mind has become an out of control entity in its own right and is NOT us in the slightest.
He teaches that the LAST thing we should do is expand the mind. Yes expand the spirit but not through the mind.
Maybe we are getting mixed up with what exactly the mind is, this has happened before and in the end myself and the other poster was actually talking about the same thing but he just called it mind and I called it being.

[edit on 6-5-2009 by Mr Green]

Originally posted by Astyanax
So there has to be only one truth.

But how do we 'know' this is the case? Just because it makes sense to us that there can only be one truth, surely we must consider that what makes sense to us is not necessarily the way things actually are. It is already shown that we cannot prove any objective truth beyond our own perception/observation, so surely we must consider that there may (I stress the word 'may' here, I'm not trying to imply that this is the way it is, or this is what I believe to be the case, because I don't know) be something beyond that which we simply cannot fathom in our current incarnation as human beings.

I realise that you may say that what is beyond human experience does not matter, since humans is what we are and therefore all we should be concerned with, but my point is that just because this is the case, it does not render the potential of something beyond as invalid in terms of some transcendent 'objective' reality.

The objective reality may simply be that there are indeed multiple truths (or what we might call paradoxical truths), or that truths themselves are entirely meaningless and invalid.

suprise:


you're right. always nurture you're growing wisdom.

everything is just a vibration.










note: on your picture of shiva i believe it to be (hindu picture), the halo effect is in cause due to the positive charged ions in the oxygen that surrounds one's head. cosmic awareness.

This is whats so painful to so many. Even if what we are pondering is the truth. It cannot be proven.. This could go back to even the simplistic explanations. Which is prob. the case for the truth. No one was there when all this became here. So there you have it. At this time this is the truth to the question, I believe, which again espires me to enjoy life. Thats what makes all of this so special.

I share many similar views OP.

Reality is subjective to the one experiencing it.

Originally posted by spartacus mills

Originally posted by Astyanax
So there has to be only one truth.

But how do we 'know' this is the case? Just because it makes sense to us that there can only be one truth, surely we must consider that what makes sense to us is not necessarily the way things actually are. It is already shown that we cannot prove any objective truth beyond our own perception/observation, so surely we must consider that there may (I stress the word 'may' here, I'm not trying to imply that this is the way it is, or this is what I believe to be the case, because I don't know) be something beyond that which we simply cannot fathom in our current incarnation as human beings.

I realise that you may say that what is beyond human experience does not matter, since humans is what we are and therefore all we should be concerned with, but my point is that just because this is the case, it does not render the potential of something beyond as invalid in terms of some transcendent 'objective' reality.

The objective reality may simply be that there are indeed multiple truths (or what we might call paradoxical truths), or that truths themselves are entirely meaningless and invalid.

I may sneek in a quick response, reading all, reponding later.
I concur with your hypothesis here because if we are multi-dimensional we would have a realative truth in in each individual existence and each dimesional existence many beings would have their own truth.
Ok I have gone all googley eyed on this one.

reply to post by Perseus Apex


There are an infinite number of colors in the spectrum. Even just the visible part, for how does one divide infinity? One color blends imperceptibly into the next, how does one draw the dividing line?

I don't deal in anonymous assignments, I'm freelance. My reality will be dealt with on my own terms, as it should be, and IS, for all. 'Tis true an ill wind blows, and may gain hurricane strength. The gents down under have gained foothold up over, and brought their $$toys$$ with them. Will wolves hide, fly, or bare teeth to enforce the boundaries of their own reality?

nenothtu out



[edit on 2009/5/6 by nenothtu]

reply to post by cindymars

Beautiful thread OP. I've often wondered myself about the questions of perception vs reality. One of my favorite quotes in fact is that "reality all depends on where you're standing at the time". Thanks for sharing.

Great subject! Thank you. I just wish I had more time today to discuss everyone's great and positive thoughts.

I think (thinking is a linear description here of a dynamic we can't describe), that we are like Ice in Water. As we define the world, it solidifies. We slow it down to freeze solid, so to speak. Otherwise it is all infinite potential. Collectively we make the world by agreement. It's laws, potentials and limits are all just what we make it. All LOVE originally.

Like many artists, it's my life's work to bring vision to our collective potentials beyond the norm. I'm a visionary surrealist artist (among my many unpaid professions) and because I also work in very technical and technology driven subjects I have a very wide big pic vision. I have experience with mystical states and lucid awareness, but bring the energy of such perception to others through the work I do. We all do this to some extent, and my own method is just more visual. Our eye-brain connection is the largest portal to our being here, so visual works great for coaxing positive or negative vision collectively.

I found that if you are in a particular state of consciousness when you create the work, be it writing, painting, singing, illustrating, whatever you do actually, you can actually imbue the work with that spirit. Really! At one of my first art showings I had a person come up to me (obviously an empathic) and he told me exactly the "intent" I was focused on when I did the painting. Even though no "visual" symbology was in the art! that happened more and more as the years went on.

Some Yogis will not eat the food prepared if the person preparing it is in a bad or negative state. We actually put ourselves into what we do, and others pick it up. You have heard of haunted items from antique stores?

So do what you love and do it with a good feeling. Then it goes on as such.

Here is one of my images. It went all over and was a Christmas magazine cover in Germany a couple years ago for the second time. 10 years earlier it was on the same cover, and they wanted it again.

I did it from a William Blake poem you might remember. The title of the art is "Like Grains of Sand"

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/a10249b9bbe8.png[/atsimg]

Auguries of Innocence William Blake

To see a World in a Grain of Sand And a Heaven in a Wild Flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour.

William Blake 28 November 1757 – 12 August 1827

I am very lucky my work has been published in several continents and seen by millions. I was early on aware of the responsibility for such a gift, and was careful I did not darken my spirit with negative or limiting states. My spiritual path was AS an artist. So I put my heart and love into my work. I imagine what the world would be like if everyone did that. Even the most mundane tasks can benefit all from such a spiritual center.

I'm still poor as a church mouse, but rich in the spirit. Remember that in hard or dark times.


Namaste,

ZG