'Israel's response to drill with Syria doesn't concern us'

Earlier this week, Turkey and Syria held their first ever joint military exercise. It is also first time for a NATO member to hold joint military drill with an Arab state. Israel voiced their concerns over this, and this is Turkey's response.

Turkey's military chief is not concerned about Israel's reaction to a joint drill involving Turkish and Syrian soldiers. Defense Minister Ehud Barak called this week's exercise "a worrisome development."
"Are we going to get approval from Israel?" Gen. Ilker Basbug told reporters. "Israel's response does not concern us."
Basbug told reporters Wednesday he was not concerned by Israel's reaction, and Turkey wasn't seeking any other country's consent. The drill, the first-ever between Turkey and Syria, ends Wednesday and marks improvement in once strained ties between both countries. Turkey has long been Israel's closest ally in the Muslim world, but their ties deteriorated during the Gaza war over casualties among Palestinian civilians. Their military links remain intact.

Source: AP/Haaretz

Seems like the game is seeing a player change sides. I think Israel should be concerned about this development. It certainly is a threat to their national security. I'm surprised they haven't thrown a bigger tantrum. If they worked on getting their neighbors to like them just a tiny bit, this would probably be a non-issue.

reply to post by tamusan


It is a change based up on self preservation. Israel is a thoroughly violent state with the majority of the population in favour of war with any body. I do not think a rational country will fail to ignore the horrors committed in Gaza, the attempted coup instigated in Turkey by Israel and the sponsoring and arming of Saskvili of Georgia all within a period less than a year and I haven't listed all it activities.

Israel is a country about to explode in outrageous violence.

reply to post by masonwatcher


Your portrayal of Israel as a nation of bloodthirsty warmongers is false and unjust.

Israel is a thoroughly violent state

No, it is not. Israel has never sought anything other than peace in the 60 years of its existence. Every conflict since 1948 has been bought about by existential attacks from its neighbours. Including Gaza.

the majority of the population in favour of war with any body

Where are you getting this from? Opinion poll? Source? Most Israelis I speak to just want to be left alone to live their lives.

the attempted coup instigated in Turkey by Israel

This is the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I think I've ever heard. Israel and Turkey are strategic and economic partners. Israel has no interest in destabilizing a friendly nation.

the sponsoring and arming of Saskvili of Georgia

Private weapons manufacturers exporting arms to a friendly nation is not a crime last time I checked.

reply to post by mattpryor

Your portrayal of Israel as a nation of bloodthirsty warmongers is false and unjust.

Not really, except for the 1973 war, Israel has attacked or invaded on all occassions starting with the war against civilians that led to the take over of Palestine in 1948.

No, it is not. Israel has never sought anything other than peace in the 60 years of its existence. Every conflict since 1948 has been bought about by existential attacks from its neighbours. Including Gaza.

Ill will does not kill nor justify ultra-violence on the bearer. One does not use force to be liked. The paranoia of a state is not a justification to kill people.

Where are you getting this from? Opinion poll? Source? Most Israelis I speak to just want to be left alone to live their lives.

Poll: 66% of Israeli Jews back attack on Iran


Asked about military action against Iran, 66 percent said they approved of it, 15 percent said they were opposed and 19 percent said they did not know. Among those who said they approved army action, 15 percent said they would change their minds if the United States opposed it, while 75 percent said they would not. The rest said they did not know or gave other answers.

www.haaretz.com...

Do you forget the picnickers and the Israeli tourists on the hills around Gaza? They had a whale of a time. what about those demonstration in favour of the siege on Gaza?

This is the most ridiculous conspiracy theory I think I've ever heard. Israel and Turkey are strategic and economic partners. Israel has no interest in destabilizing a friendly nation.

You are using the term 'conspiracy theory' in a derogatory manner to avoid the issue.

Mossad made links with the PKK, arming them and stoking the flames of war. More interestingly, Turkey recently unravelled a plot by mossad agent Daniel Levi aka Daniel Guney aka Tuncay Guney who was instigating a coup d'etat using the Turkish mafia and the Nato established cold war resistance army known as 'Deep Government'. There is an international arrest warrant for Daniel Levi who is currently holed up in a Canadian yeshiva.

Israel views the Islamic party elected in Turkey by the Turkish people as an enemy; however, Israel has strong links with right wing elements in Turkey who are left overs from the Cold War. It sought these resources. which were established by the US as a bulwark against communism, to undermine democracy in Turkey.

Private weapons manufacturers exporting arms to a friendly nation is not a crime last time I checked.

Sounds to me like you are beautifying an illicit and immoral trade as business as usual when it is really an expression of foreign policy that has been contracted out. Anyway, should Israel be selling arms paid for at great expense by the US taxpayer for profit? Aren't these freely given and heavily discounted arms meant to be used against 'existential' threats and not wallet fattening?

[edit on 073131p://pm3102 by masonwatcher]

Not really, except for the 1973 war, Israel has attacked or invaded on all occassions starting with the war against civilians that led to the take over of Palestine in 1948.

I can see that we're not going to agree on the narrative, but for the benefit of other readers I'll tell you my interpretation which is significantly different to yours:

1948: In rejection of UN resolution 181 which called for two states (one Arab, one Jewish), the Arab League declared war on Israel, with the expressly stated aim of destroying Israel. Israel was 1/500th the size of the surrounding Arab land, but even this was too much for the Arabs. The Israelis (who had no standing army) won a decisive victory which led to the 1949 Armistice Agreements.

1958: Suez crisis - essentially a struggle between the old colonial powers of Britain and France and Pan-Arab nationalism. Egypt blockaded the Suez Canal, which was an essential trade and supply route for Europe as well as Israel. I'll agree with you that this did not in itself represent an existential threat to Isreal, however in light of the ongoing clashes between Israel and surrounding Arab countries and Egypt, Jordan, Syria's continued agressive rejection of the Jewish state and anti-semetic rhetoric, Israel fought alongside Britain and France to end the blockade. The USA then intervened and strong-armed Britain and France into withdrawal, leaving the Israelis on their own. Another decisive victory for Israel.

1967: Six day war, the objective of which was to overrun Israel and expel the Jews. Here is a speech made by Egyptian president Nasser:

"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel ... to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not of more declarations."

This sums up the result of that endeavour.

1969: War of Attrition. Following the Egyptian "three noes" - no recognition of Israel, no peace, no negotiations - Egypt and the PLO fight a low-level campaign against Israel to try to re-capture the Sinai Peninsular, ended in 1970 with the death of President Nasser.

1973: Yom-Kippor war, which we've already agreed was in response to a hostile attack by Egyptian forces to regain control of the Suez. Resulted in Egypt allowing Israeli ships to use the Suez in return for Israel withdrawing from the Sinai.

Now you can read this one of two ways, depending on whether you take the Arab world-view or the Western one, which is that Israel's neighbours have never accepted the existence of Israel and have launched war after war to expel Jews from it, which have always ended in defeat and humiliation for the Arabs. This is the situation that still exists today.

Ill will does not kill nor justify ultra-violence on the bearer. One does not use force to be liked. The paranoia of a state is not a justification to kill people.

With all due respect I would hardly describe the mobilization of 230,000 Egyptian, Jordanian and Syrian troops as "ill will". And I would hardly describe Israel's fight for existence as "paranoia".

With regards to your quoting a Haaretz poll that Israelis favour military action against Iran as evidence that "the majority of the population in favour of war with any body". They see a nuclear-armed Iran as a serious threat, which it is, and they do not trust the international community to come to Israel's rescue. I don't blame them to be honest.

Do you forget the picnickers and the Israeli tourists on the hills around Gaza? They had a whale of a time. what about those demonstration in favour of the siege on Gaza?

I don't recall this, and I don't dispute that it happened. So are you telling me that you didn't also watch the war on CNN? How does that make you better than Israelis?

As for demonstrations, well why shouldn't they demonstrate? The blockade was to restrict rocket fire from Hamas (which had been going on for 8 years). Plus, demonstration is a democratic right. There were plenty of people around the world demonstrating against Israel - I seem to recall the general rhetoric was along the lines of "get back in the ovens".

Paranoid huh?

You are using the term 'conspiracy theory' in a derogatory manner to avoid the issue.

No, I'm not trying to avoid the issue. A conspiracy theory is what it is. I stand by my original statement that Israel has no interest in de-stabilizing Turkey which is one of Israel's few allies in the region - the last thing it needs is another radical Islamic state at its doorstep.

Turkey recently unravelled a plot by mossad agent Daniel Levi

Daniel Levy was a Turkish intelligence operative working for the Turkish NIO. Not MOSSAD.

Fact is this conflict is long and bitter, and it is natural for people to take sides. I just find it sad and a tad strange that someone would take the side of extremists who harbour nothing but hatred towards Jews AND the United States against a secular, liberal democracy that actually wants peace for themselves and Palestinians.

Your choice, but when this does all kick off and we get dragged into it I honestly think you'll have sided with the bad guys.

Edit: Then again you'll probably think the same thing about me. So what hope is there?

[edit on 7-5-2009 by mattpryor]

Meanwhile elsewhere today in the Middle East, Israel says it mistakenly took a particularly loud bowlful of Kellogg's Captain Crunch Cereal being enjoyed by a child in Jordan as a Katusha Rocket assault, and put it's air force on the highest state of alert and violated Jordanian airspace with several rounds of fly overs.

While apologizing to the Jordanian Government, Prime Minister Benjamin Netenyaho defended Israel's right to protect itself against aggressive Cereal which he contended the eating of without milk was both amoral and terrorized Israeli citizens in what was likely a well planned effort to demoralize the Israeli State.

In his broad ranging News Conference he also inquired about tardy payment of his Net remittance Check in Yahoo further citing a yet to be fully understood plot to deny him and Israel the economic means in which to survive.

He concluded the Conference by saying he would immediately telephone President Barack Obama as is his G-d given right, even though it was 3:30 AM Washington D.C. time to demand the latest American Military Sensitive Listening Equipment and money to install and train Israelis to use it to avoid another attack by noisy Jordanian breakfast cereal eaters and to install a sound dampening wall along the entire Israeli Jordanian border similar to the ones along busy inner city American Freeways, and put Yahoo on Notice he might soon switch to AOL if his Net in Yahoo remittance check is not Fed-Ex'd in the future.

Wow those poor Israeli's someone is always out to get them!

[edit on 7/5/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

reply to post by mattpryor


I see you have cracked open an Israel grade school history text book. Excuse me if I disregard more of yet another Israeli 'narrative' you are peddling.

That propaganda is designed for western ears and is beginning to wear thin. But there something particularly weird about it; have you noticed?

It is strictly Israelocentric, every thing you list refers to Israel against either unknowns or people who had done nothing yet. It is always a case of Israel committing horrible acts followed by a diatribe of excuses revolving around the intentions of the victim but never the actions.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Ha? While i congratulate your imagination and sense of humor, i cannot do the same with regards to your honesty. Your made up story has no connection to reality. Israel is in real constant threat and while you and i can argue about the reasons for that (or who started first stuff) - there is no peace with two out of four neighbours and the relationship with potential third on is also not that good. There were 6 wars in 6 decades of Israeli existence. So paranoia is justified.
Add Iran and its ambitions. Then add the fact that relationship with Turkey are (or were) as good as Israeli-Persian relationship before Islamic revolution and you will understand why this common drill causes unease for Israeli diplomacy.
Turkey expressed its position about Israeli actions in Gaza, and Israel expresses its position about this Syrian-Turkey affair. All part of diplomacy games. It is not about cereal, trust me.

Originally posted by ZeroKnowledge
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Ha? While i congratulate your imagination and sense of humor, i cannot do the same with regards to your honesty. Your made up story has no connection to reality. Israel is in real constant threat and while you and i can argue about the reasons for that (or who started first stuff) - there is no peace with two out of four neighbours and the relationship with potential third on is also not that good. There were 6 wars in 6 decades of Israeli existence. So paranoia is justified.
Add Iran and its ambitions. Then add the fact that relationship with Turkey are (or were) as good as Israeli-Persian relationship before Islamic revolution and you will understand why this common drill causes unease for Israeli diplomacy.
Turkey expressed its position about Israeli actions in Gaza, and Israel expresses its position about this Syrian-Turkey affair. All part of diplomacy games. It is not about cereal, trust me.

My friend, I am a business man. In business people look for ways to make deals, and make deals work when they want to get something done.

As a businessman I have dealt with people of all cultures from all over the world. I prefer not to have to go through some of the bargaining charades that are indigenous to certain cultures but it's a process that they have to go through to make a deal and feel good about making a deal. A good businessman intent on his company's prosperity and security doesn't let his personal feelings or insecurities or prejudices get in the way of making a deal. He knows time is money and while some assets do appreciate in value through a certain risked based calculation and trend, most assets decrease in value as they depreciate over time as new concepts and better functioning products are brought to market.

Companies that fail to innovate and progress and change with the times typically find their stock plummets increasingly in value, and that what they have to sell becomes less marketable and that their too long held or over used assets have lost nearly if not almost all of their value.

The United States of America in it's reputation, in it's citizens, and in it's industry, and in it's wealth has paid a huge toll to gift Israel a position of strength often at the expense of those very things and our Constitutional Principals as well as it's laws have far to often, and all to long now been made to sacrifice to give Israel a position of strength...not to abuse...not to waste...not as a right...now as anything owed...but a gift to utilize to strike a deal to make a just and lasting peace.

If the nation of Israel were a business and in truth all nations are, and it was a subsidiary of my business, I would have long ago dropped it and written off that investment in it as a "Non performing asset"

That my friend is no joke.

Thankfully as an American Citizen I have no contractual obligation to blindly defend an under performing, poorly run asset that in reality has never been anything but a liability.

Israel won't make peace no matter how many carrots they are given, it's high time to give them the stick.

Originally posted by masonwatcher
reply to post by mattpryor

 

I see you have cracked open an Israel grade school history text book. Excuse me if I disregard more of yet another Israeli 'narrative' you are peddling.

That propaganda is designed for western ears and is beginning to wear thin. But there something particularly weird about it; have you noticed?

It is strictly Israelocentric, every thing you list refers to Israel against either unknowns or people who had done nothing yet. It is always a case of Israel committing horrible acts followed by a diatribe of excuses revolving around the intentions of the victim but never the actions.

To describe it as "designed for western ears" is erroneous - these are the historical facts. They do not paint my own country in a particularly good light either I might add. Britain probably betrayed the Jews more than any other nation.

Throughout the history of this conflict the Arab side has been characterized by hatred and violence towards Jews, encouraged and fuelled by pan-Arab nationalists and now Islamists. From the riots in Jerusalem in 1920 (when 5 Jews were beaten to death, several were raped, and over 200 were injured) to the suicide bombings and rockets of present day.

And how should the Jews respond to this violence and hatred? Do you not think they have a right to defend themselves? Obviously not. For people like you they should just shut up and go away - then all the world's problems would be solved.

Unfortunately the world is not like that. This is not a conflict about Arab rights (Arabs have more rights in Israel than they do in any Arab state), it's a conflict about getting rid of Jews. Always has been and still is. Sooner or later that will be come very evident and you sir will have been complicit.

You want peace and justice for minorities, which is an admirable aspiration and one that is shared by most Westerners. But you are demanding peace from the wrong side and in doing so are making it harder to achieve.

Originally posted by masonwatcher

I see you have cracked open an Israel grade school history text book. Excuse me if I disregard more of yet another Israeli 'narrative' you are peddling.

That propaganda is designed for western ears and is beginning to wear thin. But there something particularly weird about it; have you noticed?

So, historical fact = Israeli Narrative?

What a fortuitous position in which you find yourself! You can defend your misguided world view by simply dismiss any facts that do not fit as Western fabrication.

Congrats.

Sadly for you, the thinking people of the world understand that Matt's narrative is an historically accurate one.

reply to post by Night Watchman

So, historical fact = Israeli Narrative?

What a fortuitous position in which you find yourself! You can defend your misguided world view by simply dismiss any facts that do not fit as Western fabrication

Obviously you do not know the meaning of historical fact and readily confuse it with zionist propaganda.

Zionism is merely a post colonial expression of European domination over a brown skinned people. You are an American who may not be aware of the European experience and blind to this legacy.

Unfortunately, the Palestinian people live on a land that has a long and ancient history they have always been a part of but is of no worth if a group of white Eastern Europeans deem it as theirs on a the basis of a myth and psuedo science.

reply to post by masonwatcher


Zionism has nothing to do with colonialism or oppression of brown skinned people - again you're framing the debate using the facile arguments of those that seek the destruction of Israel, which ignores or worse distorts the accepted factual history and grossly simplifies the complicated problems that are faced today.

Are Arabs that live in Israel dominated in any way? Do they have fewer rights when it comes to owning property, practising their faith, working, benefits? No, they have the exactly the same constitutional rights as Jews.

Compare that to the areas run by the PA, where the penalty for selling land to a Jew is death. That seems like oppression to me, perhaps we have different views on that.

Zionism is about a safe haven for a people that have endured persecution throughout their entire existence, culminating in the industrialized massacre of over 30% of them.


[edit on 11-5-2009 by mattpryor]

reply to post by mattpryor

Zionism has nothing to do with colonialism or oppression of brown skinned people - again you're framing the debate using the facile arguments of those that seek the destruction of Israel, which ignores or worse distorts the accepted factual history and grossly simplifies the complicated problems that are faced today.

It is only complicated to a zionist when the task of justifying the unremitting and relentless subjugation of the Palestinian people is at hand. Zionists have notoriously poor memories when it comes to recalling even the most recent outrages committed by them against the Palestinian people. Have you forgotten the great conquests the IDF had over children, women and the elderly held hostage behind the walls around a conglomerate of refugee camps in Gaza so soon?

Why would one seek the destruction of Israel when it is only a matter of time before it disappears up its own backside. Such a monstrous entity will either be consumed by the hate it sows around the world or the Israelis will simply end up eating each other.

Facile arguments only emerge when Eastern European land squatters try to make associations between themselves and the ancients.

Are Arabs that live in Israel dominated in any way? Do they have fewer rights when it comes to owning property, practising their faith, working, benefits? No, they have the exactly the same constitutional rights as Jews.

I do note you exclude Palestinians under Israeli subjugation in the occupied territories.

Arabs in Israel are treated worse than third class citizens, regularly have to deal with rampaging maniacs during Purim, dodge Israeli skin heads when out for the evening and host of other types of discrimination.

During the Gaza assault, a Palestinian doctor who works in an Israeli hospital treating Israelis was commenting on what was happening in Gaza on tv. The IDF decided to station a tank with its barrel aimed at his home. It sat there for days and he spoke of it on TV. Then one evening when the IDF had enough of his Palestinian face clogging the air waves, they decided to shut him up by pulverising his house with his family inside.

Here is the link to the story;

www.reuters.com...

Compare that to the areas run by the PA, where the penalty for selling land to a Jew is death. That seems like oppression to me, perhaps we have different views on that.

I recall from history lesson that when the Nazis put Jewish people behind walls in Warsaw, they eventually started cannibalising each other. You see when you imprison people behind walls and checkpoints, they tend to do terrible things to each other.

Regarding the penalties given for selling Palestinian land to Israelis; perfectly reasonable. Why sell to your oppressor what he desires? Isn't that treason? Zionist probably think treason is a complicated thing particularly when in the US. Pollard ring a bell?

Zionism is about a safe haven for a people that have endured persecution throughout their entire existence, culminating in the industrialized massacre of over 30% of them.

I think that matter should be taken up with the Germans and the rest of the Europeans that routinely purged innocent Jewish people. It was a crime but why should the Palestinians put up with this legacy?

[edit on 013131p://pm3121 by masonwatcher]

i wonder how/If the joint exercises by Israel & neighbors, including Turkey
coincides with or perhaps augments the NATO exercises underway in Georgia?


see: usa.mediamonitors.net...

On May 6 the Cooperative Longbow 09/
Cooperative Lancer 09 US-led NATO Partnership for Peace exercises began in Georgia.

More exactly, the first half of the paired exercises, Cooperative Longbow 09, which is a command post operation conducted at Georgian military headquarters in Tbilisi.

The second, Cooperative Lancer 09, is a field exercise and was scheduled to include 1,300 servicemen from 19 countries (Albania, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Canada, Croatia, the Czech Republic, Georgia, Hungary, Greece, Kazakhstan, Moldavia, Serbia, Spain, Macedonia, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, Britain, and the US), including 1,089 foreign troops and 214 Georgian servicemen in exercises at the Vaziani base of the Georgian Defence Ministry near the capital.
The first started on May 6;
the second will run from May 17-June 1st

in the article ...several nations opted out of he exercise because of the Russian-Georgian hot spot getting re-ignighted

Are the Middle East maneuveors completely over or are their active troop movements going on just as NATO is stoking the embers in central Asia again?

reply to post by masonwatcher


I can't really be bothered to reply to all your points, it's late in the day and I don't think we'll get anywhere as we clearly sit on opposite sides of the fence.

All I will say on the matter is that continuing to vilify and label people will not help achieve peace. Nor will repeating the same tired old arguments. What the Middle East needs now is for moderate Arabs and Jews to join together in sensible grown up discussions on how to resolve this crisis, not petty bickering and name calling.

reply to post by mattpryor

All I will say on the matter is that continuing to vilify and label people will not help achieve peace. Nor will repeating the same tired old arguments. What the Middle East needs now is for moderate Arabs and Jews to join together in sensible grown up discussions on how to resolve this crisis, not petty bickering and name calling.

This comment is quite possibly the most laughable yet. So who is to decide what a moderate Arab is particularly when zionist cannot bring themselves to articulate word Palestinian.

I would surmise that moderate Palestinians and militant Hamas members died together under the siege imposed on them by the IDF. When it comes to the zionist these differentiations are irrelevant and is only devise to insinuate unreasonableness against any resistance or critic of Israel. There is no such thing as a moderate or radical Palestinian, only Palestinians not killed by Israel or a Palestinian killed Israel.

Name calling is a zionist's and Israeli apologist's speciality. Terms used are terrorist, antiSemite, antiJew, Holocaust denier, nazi and hater all because people seriously object to the barbarism of Israel imposes over the Palestinian people. There no room for bickering, name calling, debating over semantics and double speak. Israel must stop killing the Palestinians and stealing their land.

It is not complicated at all.



[edit on 033131p://pm3143 by masonwatcher]

mattpryor is a disinfo agent.

look at the way he writes his responses, all based of a training manual. I've seen it.

I will bet my career on it.

reply to post by dreab_boy


Dammit, you blew my cover.

What gave me away? Is it because I'm polite and respectful to people whose views I don't agree with? Or because I advocate for a point of view that's a bit different to your own?

Or just because I bother to write out thoughtful arguments instead of trying to silence people with personal attacks?