Prison life is too easy!

When it comes to prisons you have to look at the results of those who leave them and not what their cells look like or what their activities are while they're incarcerated. I tend to agree with the way a lot of foreign countries do it versus our way. A lot of people say they are “soft” on prisoners and yet the incarceration and crime rates are lower and the successful rehabilitation rates are better.

"So it was easier than jail? Easy in general? Please be more specific. "

No it was a lot more difficult. County Jail here in the Bay Area is just a gnarly place to be. It has to do with the court process and the conditions of living. Staph infection, general sickness (colds, flu) and even TB are pretty rampant in that place. Proper and especially timely medication is extremely difficult to obtain when you're incarcerated.

en.wikipedia.org...

I was granted money for participating in a class action lawsuit against SRJ for illegal strip searches, btw.

www.topix.com...

"Yeah, bad things happen in prison because of the inmates not because of the rules. Like I have been saying, this is a problem."

A few quick things about Santa Rita Jail...

I have personally seen a 71 year old man die of a heart attack because medical aid didn't respond fast enough. He was in my POD (Prisoners on Display) and I was one of the people hitting 'the button' to call for help through intercom. The Dep responded with "The F#ck did I say? No pod time this week its lockdown until Tuesday" and wouldn't respond for at least 5 minutes.

Another day, a 21 year old kid I worked with in the kitchen of the Jail was thrown into an Isolation cell for 8+ hours with a dirty and infected colostomy bag that they hadn't changed since he 'messed him'sef' over a day previous. - Reason? He was bitchin' over the intercom about his colostomy bag and the fact that he needed a new one ASAP. They changed it afterwords, but still.

Tip of the iceberg. Anyways...

I digress.

There are people who should not ever be released from jail. I agree with that. But regardless of what they did, they are still citizens under a constitution and will have their legal rights to certain things. If you denied them these rights then what kind of a country are you working for? Lebanon? Turkey? GTMO? lol.

"what strikes me is the fact that alot of inmates might even have a better life inside the sytem, prison, because it suits them better than the "outside" world. Scary."

That's called being institutionalized.

I fought the law and the law won - Peace

(edit: Cuz!)

-







[edit on 24-4-2009 by Neurockones]

reply to post by they see ALL


I'm not saying to treat them like animals 2.
Speaking of animals, there was a thread recently about prisoners having dogs as cell mates for prisoners. 8 prisoners were selected to have these dogs. Apparently violence went down dramatically in this prison because prisoners had (u can say) unconditional love.
I thought this was a brilliant approach for a rehabilitation program.
And hey, if a dog can prove to make an inmate less violent, well sh*t, better off and less expensive than drugs and other programs which failed miserably apparently , and in some ways explains "repeat offenders."

"cell dogs" thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

Nice story, ProtoplasmicTraveler!

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
When it comes to prisons you have to look at the results of those who leave them and not what their cells look like or what their activities are while they're incarcerated.

That's fair, I guess. But what about people on death row? Should they have luxuries?

Originally posted by Neurockones
No it was a lot more difficult. County Jail here in the Bay Area is just a gnarly place to be. It has to do with the court process and the conditions of living. Staph infection, general sickness (colds, flu) and even TB are pretty rampant in that place. Proper and especially timely medication is extremely difficult to obtain when you're incarcerated.

I'm not focusing on the entire criminal justice system. The medical issues there are like prisoners being the reason prison life can be hard. It's a byproduct, not a direct extension of the system. (Not getting timely medical attention is pretty horrible though.)

There are people who should not ever be released from jail. I agree with that. But regardless of what they did, they are still citizens under a constitution and will have their legal rights to certain things. If you denied them these rights then what kind of a country are you working for? Lebanon? Turkey? GTMO? lol.

Again, I'm not saying we should treat them like animals.

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
I'm not saying to treat them like animals 2.
Speaking of animals, there was a thread recently about prisoners having dogs as cell mates for prisoners. 8 prisoners were selected to have these dogs. Apparently violence went down dramatically in this prison because prisoners had (u can say) unconditional love.
I thought this was a brilliant approach for a rehabilitation program.

Although that technique worked, I am shocked that such a thing would have been implemented. So prisoners can have pets too! Crazy! I may seem heartless right now, but I just can't see the point of rewarding prisoners for bad behavior.

reply to post by they see ALL

That's fair, I guess. But what about people on death row? Should they have luxuries?

Generally, I think people who were put on death row with hardcore evidence are a waste of space, and after being given a short time to properly attempt an appeal, they should be killed immediately. There’s no use in keeping them around, especially those who are particularly violent and could cause harm to the staff.

The only time I would have a problem with this method is if the person is mentally ill or would serve society better by being studied by scientist and psychiatrist instead of being immediately put down.

"I may seem heartless right now, but I just can't see the point of rewarding prisoners for bad behavior."

What some folks don't seem to realize is that a majority of prisoners are short-term. These people are going to get out and be re-integrated into society at some point. So then, the focus on rehabilitation (--which includes rewarding decent/good behavior and extracurricular activities, education programs etc..) should be key correct?

You seem to be agreeing with a lot of what is said, yet maintain that Prison Life is too Easy....

-Confused and stuff - Peace

Some of you people are straight jokers.... and maybe sadists too?

I don't know how much life and free will costs... in my eyes, my life and my ability to do whatever I want when I want are priceless and is quite frankly all I have when you get down to it... Prison takes that away from you. And most of you people are either a) ignoring that or b) don't care. If B is the case, I truly hope to God you are framed for something heinous like meth dealing and are put away for a good 10 years... so you can see how easy it really is.

In our current legal system, prisoners are a mixed bag. There is a good portion of people there who are there for something as basic as growing weed or for something like too many DUIs (not so basic I'm an avid anti-alcohol kind of guy) or hell even the people who fell asleep driving and hit & killed another driver (had that happen to a buddy, he was the one that fell asleep and killed the other driver)... these people get multiple year sentences and really, in real life they are often times as good of people as you could find... but they are in prison. Do they deserve to be locked in a 4 ft x 4ft cell with no human contact, 2 meals a day, no visitors, no reading material, no TV, nothing? That's what some of you are proposing and you are sick for doing so. And if that's not what you propose, what exactly it so easy about it.. seriously, you think watching cable is fun? HA.

Not to mention what other people have already said... most people that go to prison aren't there for life or the DP. Your neighbor could be a convicted felon, you don't know that (some do but you know what I mean...). So would you propose these people sit in your version of prison to stew for a couple years so when they DO get out and move next to you, they are now psychotic, even though they weren't when they went in?

And finally.. there are obviously some real sick and twisted people in prison. In for the long haul or maybe the DP. These dudes and dudettes SHOULD be segregated and kept away from human contact. Guess what, most prisons do this. The people that are an honest threat to someone's safety, like the gang members or the shankers or what have you, are segregated most of the times... and should be all of the time. These people deserve the harsher treatment and I really can't and won't stick up for anyone in prison that falls into this paragraph's category.

But the other situations, I am positive 110% in saying that prison is punishment enough. If the average human lifespan is like what, 70-100 years... it is beyond words to lose a good percentage of that time on Earth. The loss of time, any real life, or any kind of free will is the REAL punishment of prison... not how you get treated once you're there. (don't take that too far people they shouldn't get lollipops and ice cream... there are things I would change about the prison system but it sure as #zle wouldn't be making it a crappier place).

ps: If anyone actually tries to make an argument that you do have any form of life or free will in prison, I will honestly toss my lunch all over this keyboard.

[edit on 25-4-2009 by ImaNutter]

Well Mr.lackinginphiloshophicalknowledge........
Did you ever consideer the purpose of creating places like prisons?.

So you could feel safe and secure that all those dangerous criminals were safe and away from your helpless innocent self?.

Did you ever study law,only to realise that it is not..(justice)..available to you unless you have a whole buttload of money?.

Never really realised you're already in your own prison while trying to avoid getting tossed into the other one you think is more real?.

The one you are in is much more real than the one you"think" you have a concept of...

anyway............................

Ya'll gots ta wake the fk up!!!!!!!

The thing that really tees me off is how little it takes for people to reject one another out of hand,according to anothers authoritarian "decree"!!..

Who says your system is right?.

What the hell do you really know about it,if you're a good little sheeple?.

Shut TFU.

Sorry....



[edit on 25-4-2009 by chiponbothshoulders]

reply to post by chiponbothshoulders
Forgive them my father,for they know not what they do,to one another.......

Originally posted by Ben Niceknowinya
reply to post by they see ALL

 

I'm not saying to treat them like animals 2.
Speaking of animals, there was a thread recently about prisoners having dogs as cell mates for prisoners. 8 prisoners were selected to have these dogs. Apparently violence went down dramatically in this prison because prisoners had (u can say) unconditional love.
I thought this was a brilliant approach for a rehabilitation program.
And hey, if a dog can prove to make an inmate less violent, well sh*t, better off and less expensive than drugs and other programs which failed miserably apparently , and in some ways explains "repeat offenders."

The thing is a lot of people don't WANT to reform them, they just want them to suffer. Even if they stay the way they are.

reply to post by Neurockones


Seems I might need to provide a little educational services.

As to where I work, its not important. Lets just say its a correctional system of over 3000 inmates. For every 500 inmates, you have one Nurse. Of those 500 inmates, perhaps 1 out of 4 have some type of Chronic Disease. Add to it a State system that doesn't want to pay out the resources to adequately take care of those inmates. Include the never ending constant c\o's for Vicoden or other "favored" drug. Add to it, the lazy requests like I want my tray taken to me, my legs hurt. Yet he\she is seen later playing basketball at req without a single problem. And you can see why stupidity happens.

We fought tooth and nail for a AED machine, and that took two years. And several inmate deaths later to obtain. You would think maybe the inmate would assist in this request. Nope they "Demanded" HD TV's, and guess what, they got what they wanted.

Yes, I have seen inmate's get sick\die from neglect or malpractice. And guess what, there was usually underlying causes that go along with it. For exp, A man demands his colostomy to be changed right now at 0300. Problem, the inmate was supposed to come down for tx's @ 2200, but decided he wanted to Play a x-box 360 at Rec. He goes back to his cell after Rec. is finished at 2300, and falls asleep in bed. At 0245, He wakes up and his colostomy has exploded. He then Blames medical for the mess, and demands that medical clean up the mess. or he's filing a grievance. Some medical person gets mad, tells him to go to "somewhere". And then the inmate gets a infection, and needs to be treated with Atb's.

That little story shows some of the problems of correctional life. The inmate thinks medical should do what he wants, When he wants it. The State medical states you need to come down at this time, or your not getting treated. This of course, underlines the problem. The inmate priority is "Fun". And doesn't take care of his own body, and blames every body except himself when something happens. The Medical doesn't understand that body can not be scheduled, and "accidents" can and do happen.

The concept of a TV in prison is that if the inmate is watching TV he is occupied. He is pacified. He will have less want to sit and think up new ways to make weapons to attack guards and fellow inmates. And it’s a reward for good behavior. And removed for bad.

You keep claiming the prisoners make it tough.
That is kind of classic. The violent predatory inmates make it tough for everyone guard included. You’re not separating the two.

It is the officer's duty to protect the inmates at all times. This includes protection from other inmates, guards and from the general conditions of the prison or jail.

Sheriff Joe:: If it was just about living in tents, wearing pink, and working for food I would have no problem with his tactics.
Alas it is not. It’s about illegal off the record policies, starvation, and beatings. The guy has so many shady financial dealings it’s mind-boggling.
He is half a step away from becoming an inmate him self. He just hasn’t been convicted YET.

So jail is such a great place that’s why people go?
So you conclude take away TVs then people wont want to go to jail.
Your comments and conclusions are bizarrely naive. I assumed you passed grade school that’s why I thought you were baiting.

There is in the neighborhood of eight thousand laws that can send you to jail, and over a million different reasons why those laws get broken. Not a one has to do with TVs in cells.

Sheriff ordered to feed inmates

If this was used to punish for throwing feces as claimed I would have no problem with it. but its not
Controlled feeding

The dreaded mrsa
mrsa

Another way cells and drugs get in you dont see on lockup
drugs
drugs
drugs
this one is older but its funny how he got caught
drugs

The fights
fights
fights
fights
fights

mental health and guards
mh
mh
californiacorrectionscrisis.blogspot.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink" rel="nofollow">mh

Rape and responsibility
DELIBERATE INDIFFERENCE
rape
rape
rape
rape
rape

One of the more famous results
John King - accused of beating Byrd and then dragging him behind a truck until he died. King had previously claimed to have been gang-raped in prison by black prisoners[5] and, although he had no previous record of racism, had joined a white-supremacist group
king

The private prison industrial complex.

The duping of a nation.

“Imagine a full-fledged corporate public relations campaign designed to whip up crime hysteria in order to increase profits.
The most worrisome aspect of prison privatization is the inevitable emergence of a private "prison lobby" concerned not with social welfare but with increasing its dividends, not with doing good, but with doing well. Sentencing guidelines, parole rules, corrections budgets, and new criminal legislation are areas in which private prison operators have a vested interest and could influence policy decisions. They could also benefit by manipulating public fear of crime. Unlike most other public policy arenas, criminal justice policy is largely determined not by the realities of crime but by its perception. That the fear of crime is exploited by politicians and "reality television" programming is a truism; but imagine a full-fledged corporate public relations campaign designed to whip up crime hysteria in order to increase profits.

Wackenhut, founded by former FBI official George Wackenhut


Corrections Corporation of America


“Founded in 1983 by the investors behind Kentucky Fried Chicken, CCA used the sales skills of Nashville banker/ financier Doctor R. Crants and the political connections of former Tennessee Republican Party chair Tom Beasley-“
source



“The creation of a prison-industrial complex is one the most disturbing things going on. Note there is no contradiction between the facts that prisons are both hugely expensive and very profitable. Just like with military spending, the cost is public cost and the profits are private profits: it's yet another way of funneling public money into the pockets of the rich few. Here are a collection of interesting articles on prison privatization and prison labor.”
source

. "There are no rich people on death row. Just as police brutality and police murder never effect affluent communities, the death penalty is an instrument of terror inflicted by those who hold power against working class and poor people.”

source

· failure to provide adequate medical care to prisoners;
· failure to control violence in its prisons;
· substandard conditions that have resulted in prisoner protests and uprisings;
· criminal activity on the part of some CCA employees, including the sale of illegal drugs to prisoners; and
· escapes, which in the case of at least two facilities include inadvertent releases of prisoners who were supposed to remain in custody.
source

”There exists, in this country, a prison industrial-complex.

An organized and systematic network of interest groups, lawyers, politicians, prison guard unions and construction companies, who form the cyclic mechanisms which hold the socially destructive machine in place.

They are the profiteers of imprisonment, bound not by the desire to correct or rehabilitate, but by the scent of big business.”
source

“For those who have invested in private prisons, say the authors, prison labor is like a pot of gold. There are no strikes, no unions, no unemployment insurance, or worker’s compensation. Prisoners can now be found doing data entry for Chevron, telephone reservations for TWA, raising hogs, shoveling manure, and sometimes making lingerie for Victoria’s Secret.”
source

Originally posted by Neurockones
So then, the focus on rehabilitation (--which includes rewarding decent/good behavior and extracurricular activities, education programs etc..) should be key correct?

Rehabilitation should be key, but giving prisoners opportunities (that are not rewards) to have luxuries is not cool. From what I saw, prisoners can buy televisions for their cells. That's not being rewarded, that's having the chance to buy luxuries.

You seem to be agreeing with a lot of what is said, yet maintain that Prison Life is too Easy....

-Confused and stuff - Peace

Sure I agree with some stuff. What are you confused about?

Originally posted by ImaNutter
I don't know how much life and free will costs... in my eyes, my life and my ability to do whatever I want when I want are priceless and is quite frankly all I have when you get down to it... Prison takes that away from you. And most of you people are either a) ignoring that or b) don't care. If B is the case, I truly hope to God you are framed for something heinous like meth dealing and are put away for a good 10 years... so you can see how easy it really is.

Oh yes, prison is, as ThirdJohnAdams termed it, the ultimate form of timeout, and, yes, this is a great form of punishment. I believe, however, that there are things in prison that make this time fun. It's not going to be as fun as the outside world, but it's as fun as prison life can get. When parents puts their kids in timeout, they don't get television, so why should prisoners? The logic is incredibly flawed!

Do they deserve to be locked in a 4 ft x 4ft cell with no human contact, 2 meals a day, no visitors, no reading material, no TV, nothing? That's what some of you are proposing and you are sick for doing so. And if that's not what you propose, what exactly it so easy about it.. seriously, you think watching cable is fun? HA.

I might agree to some reading, but no television. Television isn't fun (well for the most part), but it sure will make the time easier and will make the time seem to pass by quickly. Anything that might pass the time quickly is wrong. Prisoners should focus on what they did, not what's on television.

So would you propose these people sit in your version of prison to stew for a couple years so when they DO get out and move next to you, they are now psychotic, even though they weren't when they went in?

I'm not saying we should make them psychotic, but I'm just shocked at all the fun stuff they have. Prison is supposed to be the worst form of punishment in a country, so why are they seeming to have fun. Again, I'm not saying let's treat them horribly or that they are having the best times ever.

But the other situations, I am positive 110% in saying that prison is punishment enough. If the average human lifespan is like what, 70-100 years... it is beyond words to lose a good percentage of that time on Earth. The loss of time, any real life, or any kind of free will is the REAL punishment of prison... not how you get treated once you're there.

Yeah the downtime is the worst part, but they have opportunities to have fun or, at least, to make the time pass quickly.

(don't take that too far people they shouldn't get lollipops and ice cream... there are things I would change about the prison system but it sure as #zle wouldn't be making it a crappier place).

So what's the difference between your lollipops and ice cream and my televisions and CD players? I would give them the former out of the two groups!

ps: If anyone actually tries to make an argument that you do have any form of life or free will in prison, I will honestly toss my lunch all over this keyboard.

Get ready to make a mess. They do have freewill! Sure, it's not like the freewill of the outside world, but they have the freedom to make weapons, make coffee/liquor, attack each other, rape each other, attempt breakouts, and etc. Of course, they aren't allowed to do these things, but they have the opportunity to do them. If the animals in zoos had this much freedom, they would love the place!

Originally posted by chiponbothshoulders
Well Mr.lackinginphiloshophicalknowledge........

Your sarcasm shows that you cannot adequately defend your position of the topic.

Did you ever consideer the purpose of creating places like prisons?.

So you could feel safe and secure that all those dangerous criminals were safe and away from your helpless innocent self?.

That's not the topic.

Did you ever study law,only to realise that it is not..(justice)..available to you unless you have a whole buttload of money?.

Way off topic.

Ya'll gots ta wake the fk up!!!!!!!

Your whole post is too out there, and you seem to not know how to participate in a debate.

Shut TFU.

Nice.

Originally posted by msnevil
Nope they "Demanded" HD TV's, and guess what, they got what they wanted.

HD televisions? Disgusting!

Yes, I have seen inmate's get sick\die from neglect or malpractice. And guess what, there was usually underlying causes that go along with it. For exp, A man demands his colostomy to be changed right now at 0300. Problem, the inmate was supposed to come down for tx's @ 2200, but decided he wanted to Play a x-box 360 at Rec. He goes back to his cell after Rec. is finished at 2300, and falls asleep in bed. At 0245, He wakes up and his colostomy has exploded. He then Blames medical for the mess, and demands that medical clean up the mess. or he's filing a grievance. Some medical person gets mad, tells him to go to "somewhere". And then the inmate gets a infection, and needs to be treated with Atb's.

They even have video games? Crazy!

The inmate priority is "Fun".

Fun in prison? Some people here think that's impossible. I know otherwise, though.

Originally posted by Plasma applicator
The concept of a TV in prison is that if the inmate is watching TV he is occupied. He is pacified. He will have less want to sit and think up new ways to make weapons to attack guards and fellow inmates. And it’s a reward for good behavior. And removed for bad.

Even with televisions, such things as attacks occur.

You keep claiming the prisoners make it tough.

They do! There, obviously, could be more guards, though. Even with this, though, I am sure prisoners will still be difficult. I saw 'Inside Guantanamo,' and although those prisoners were almost always in their cells, they were still able to make trouble for the guards.

So jail is such a great place that’s why people go?
So you conclude take away TVs then people wont want to go to jail.
Your comments and conclusions are bizarrely naive. I assumed you passed grade school that’s why I thought you were baiting.

I'm not saying people consciously think about going to prison, but if prisons were a bit tougher, they may think twice about committing crimes.

Originally posted by Plasma applicator
The private prison industrial complex.

The duping of a nation.

A bit off topic. Feel free to make a thread about that.

reply to post by they see ALL

Nice story, ProtoplasmicTraveler!

Thanks my friend, and thanks for creating an appropriate forum for posting it.

It’s kind of ironic that perhaps the first adage I was ever exposed to was “When in Rome do as the Romans do”. That was instilled in me as a corner stone of manners and social graces.

Needless to say mom still wouldn’t believe to this day the United States is part of the Roman Empire but I am thoroughly convinced after studying the various International Treaties from the early 9th century onward that we in fact are.

In my humble opinion it is the well hidden heart and soul of the New World Order conspiracy which is not so new since it’s been a contiguous work in progress since Caesar.

My story might read like fiction but it isn’t.

Why I actually post it, is because it has an incredible relevance to your thread.

Roman Empire Law which is basically Captain’s Law, Ship’s Law is all about keeping each member of the crew productively working and following orders or in Irons and isolation so they can not affect a mutiny of the ship.

The ship is not a pleasure cruise around Biscayne Bay or Newport Harbor but rather a voyage for profit.

When a person can understand that the State in fact owns everything, including most of the people in it, law is about making commerce profitable. The State does not want its property damaged, non-human and human, the State wants to make money off of all assets including those human.

Some crime despite the saying truly pays. It not only pays the perpetrator but the State makes money as well sometimes when certain crimes are committed. Crimes like the Real Estate Fraud that created the Housing Bubble also created considerably higher property tax revenues for the State as the value of homes being assessed skyrocketed in value. The State in fact enjoys a citizen that can during the course of a ship’s voyage increase it’s values and profits without incurring damages that lead to costs or requiring the ship’s principals to have to invest funds or assets in the endeavor itself. The State likewise enjoys it when crimes additionally create profits for the State’s principal citizens and political/patrician class of citizens.

When you understand the system of Crime and Punishment what is judged is did the crime earn the State and its principal citizenry money, or did it cost the State and its principal citizenry money.

Can the citizen be relied upon to generate a future profit for the State if left free to their own devices and if so how much? Or is it likely the Citizen will continue to cost the State money if they are left to their own devices? A secondary determination must sometimes be made as to how much the State can make off the citizen if left free versus how much can the State or it’s principal citizenry or businesses make off the citizen if incarcerated and forced to perform supervised labor for the State.

If you have cost the State and its principal citizenry money and your earning potential is greater in prison performing a prison labor job for the State or one of its principal citizen’s businesses, then you are going to Jail!

If you made the State money through your crimes, cost no State Principal or the State any losses or damages you are not going to Jail, unless it becomes politically expedient and you aren’t going to go to Jail long.

If you are a significant wage earner and tax payer that can produce the State more money free than working for the State as prison labor then once again you aren’t going to Jail unless your crime cost the State or one of it’s significant principals considerable loss of money or property. In the latter case your sentence will be greatly reduced though as the State really wants you where you make the State and its principals the greatest profit.

It’s all simply about running a profitable enterprise and keeping the ship on course on schedule.

Your taxes might in reality be paying to incarcerate someone you feel is worthless but believe me the State or one of its principals is turning a handsome profit off of their forced supervised labor in 99% of the cases.

It’s why the State really does not put the effort into rehabilitation many concerned citizens would like. It makes no difference to the state whether you are earning a profit with your liberties intact and free, or earning a profit without any liberties and confined. The State simply wants to make a profit and prison based industries are incredibly profitable and the State is always looking for more workers for them.

To you it’s all about Public Safety, Morality, and a Fair and Even Playing Field.

To the State Public Safety is about not loosing valuable human and non-human assets through damage, destruction or death. To the State Morality is about whether your ethics profit the State financially.

Simply put the State which is simply a Human Management Business for Profit does not share your concerns because it does not share your goals. In reality like most businesses, goals are shared only on a need to know basis.

Now as a natural human being, philosophically, morally and spiritually you might be inclined and even nobly and justifiably so to say the State’s system is not conducive to the quality of life you wish to live.

However as a person, a legal entity, registered as an asset of the State through it’s Commerce Department which provides the logistical support to make the vessel one that provides sustenance and commerce opportunities to you as a person, that you may then subsequently enjoy as a natural human being, they simply don’t care what you think, what your philosophy, morality or spirituality is because the ship sails only to make a profit and you are merely an expendable piece of depreciable property in that endeavor.

Talk is cheap my friend and makes the State no profit, and that is why most people say “I would complain but it would do me no good”

It does no good because it does not make the State or anyone else money.

Figure out a better penal system, demonstrate it can make the State a greater profit, invest in it with your own personal profits through commerce and prove it can make a better profit on a ledger and you might be surprised what kind of contracts you are offered by the State and it’s principals looking to invest in your enterprise.

This is the Roman way, and like it or not, it’s only been going on now for about 2800 years give or take a century or two and judging that almost the entire world is in fact incorporated into and a part of this system, I would say it’s going to keep on for quite some time no matter who complains or how.

A good portion of the Rules and Law are really about keeping you from impeding or rivaling the State or its principals. They weren’t made because they were meant not to be broken; they were made in large part to keep slavery a well ordered and functional part of Commerce.

My own code is Do No Harm, and Make the State and its Principals a Profit.

How I carry that out through Commerce is really not the State’s business or affair as long as I do not damage or destroy State Assets and as long as I make the State and it’s Principals a profit.

That really is how life in Rome works, and as mom chides when in Rome, do as the Roman’s do, and a good Roman, unhappy with the Penal System would design a more economically profitable one. This does not equate to just lowering costs by destroying apparently defective and potentially harmful State Property, it means figure out how to turn a greater profit off of defective and potentially harmful State Property!

It’s all about keeping the ship sailing and profitable, the crew motivated and productive and if giving one of the shackled oarsman a TV to watch when not chained to his oar gets the boat there faster to that profit then I am all for it. Discipline is only required to the extent needed to get the prisoner to row!

Ramming speed! All roads lead to Rome!




[edit on 25/4/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

[edit on 25/4/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

I got too angry to read the whole thread but I am putting my two cents in here!

Television is not any real view into prison life, I don't care who did the documentary! Prisons are hell holes. I have two family members doing time for their stupid mistakes so I have been having a first hand view of corrections for the last 6 years!

I can comment with knowledge about two systems, federal and NY!

Most of my experience has been with NYDOC and in there your biggest safety concern is the guards! The inmates are like preditors and they feed on each other always seeking for a weakness. IF an inmate allows one person to show any weakness in them they not only have the inmates to fear but the guards too. I have heard of men being in full body shackles and whistled to like dogs being told "come on boy" like you would a guard. I have family members that have been locked in broom closets and forced to lay face down in two feet of snow for upwards of 3 hours in the yard after a disturbance. When they need to tear gas the mess hall they take the offenders out and leave the rest of the men in there gasping for air and wait sometime up to an hour before ventilating the room and letting the bystanders who were only eating to be taken out.

Men in prison are screwed if they don't have family on the outside. They make pennies a day doing various work and are not given a thing but a roll of toilet paper, a change of prison clothing and one pair of boots. No deodorant, no soap, no toothpaste no nothing! Heaven forbid they have access to food in there considering how often food poisoning goes on from the out dated food they are served.

The punishment is supposed to be the isolation from family and loved ones and the rigorous life of monotonous routine. When did we decided as a society that punishment was the only purpose. There is no rehabilitation anymore in the prison system, none! What most of you who want to see these people suffer fail to realize is the vast majority of these men do get out. Would we prefer to have men with PTSD and various mental trauma released to our streets, full of rage and hatred, or men and women that have received some rehabilitation?

We raise hell over what is done to the suspected terrorists by our government when every single day in the US citizens are tortured regularly by sadistic prison staff. Not all staff are abusive, but the code of silence keeps the good ones from doing anything about the sick racist ones that do more harm to those men than they do to each other.

Also remember, most of the people in US prisons are there for non violent crimes. Once they get out many are transformed into violent criminals by the very experience of incarceration.

For those of you who think they deserve it...my fondest wish is that your son, husband or nephew is locked up and you can then really see what they go through. Or better yet, I would love to see you in prison and then tell me how easy they have it.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
It’s all about keeping the ship sailing and profitable, the crew motivated and productive and if giving one of the shackled oarsman a TV to watch when not chained to his oar gets the boat there faster to that profit then I am all for it. Discipline is only required to the extent needed to get the prisoner to row!

The ends justify the means for this system then. I must disagree with giving prisoners fun things, though. Prison is about punishment (and rehabilitation). What do you think of prisons? Are they too easy?

Originally posted by redhead57
Most of my experience has been with NYDOC and in there your biggest safety concern is the guards! The inmates are like preditors and they feed on each other always seeking for a weakness. IF an inmate allows one person to show any weakness in them they not only have the inmates to fear but the guards too.

I'm glad you admit that prisoners make life hell. The guards do too? What a shame! Let's look at the system as a whole, though. That is, let's look at the rules and etc. Although guards making life hell is horrible, that's not what I want to focus on. Let's look at it from a distance for a minute. Allow me to liken it to criticizing baseball because of the players, while failing to analyze the rules. One might say that baseball is a hard game simply because the players fail to make it look easy, but that person does not recognize the rules which make it easier than other sports. I don't like sports at all, so I just picked this analogy because it may be a bit universal. Anyway, my point is that the prison system as a whole (not individual guards and prisoners) should be analyzed. The system as a whole makes prison life too easy, as prisoners can have luxuries and chances to wreak havoc.

Men in prison are screwed if they don't have family on the outside. They make pennies a day doing various work and are not given a thing but a roll of toilet paper, a change of prison clothing and one pair of boots. No deodorant, no soap, no toothpaste no nothing! Heaven forbid they have access to food in there considering how often food poisoning goes on from the out dated food they are served.

This could be a good argument against mine, but I am sure this isn't a rule of the prison system.

Would we prefer to have men with PTSD and various mental trauma released to our streets, full of rage and hatred, or men and women that have received some rehabilitation?

No.

I don't want to dismiss the horrible things that occur in prisons, such as prisoner attacks and corrupt guards, but I want to focus more on the system as a whole.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Excellent post
I must admit I am endeared.
ira esse perfida non potest.










reply to post by redhead57

good post
To bad the op couldn't grasp what you were saying. I hope the op didn't lose to much hair when it went over.













reply to post by they see ALL

This could be a good argument against mine, but I am sure this isn't a rule of the prison system.

But you don’t have an argument. You don’t even have a theory. You had a hypothesis but it didn’t survive. Rigor mortis has set in and you are still performing CPR.

IF you break the law you could be sent to prison AS punishment.
Society is then protected from any further transgressions. And you lose your liberty.
Get it. AS punishment You lose your liberty.
Pay attention! NOT go to prison To receive additional punishments
Despite what ever twisted draconian concept you have.

So that would only leave the question.
Is losing your liberty hard or easy?
It’s hard. ok
Maybe not hard enough to suit your sadistic needs, but that wasn’t the question


problem here is you tried to make a case about something you admittedly know nothing about