Did a Military Plane, Drop Airplane Parts Over Shanksville?

Originally posted by impressme
reply to post by pteridine

 

You, of course, are always quick to respond to anything that you think may cast doubt on your sincere beliefs and often completely miss the point. You have done it again and I am not surprised.

Perhaps if you stuck with the” OP discussion” and not try so hard to derail my thread by posting drivel that has nothing to do with the Shankville crash, how does that work for you.

The discussion was related to the Shanksville crash. Your should try reading the posts before responding.
How does that work for you?

Originally posted by Rafe_

Here are some real crashes

If you want to compare it to other crashes you need to limit it to Inverted, 40 deg , .64+ G, 580 mph crashes.

Inverted is the most important point of the comparison. Inverted aircraft have different forces on them. Inverted aircraft dig holes.

reply to post by Rafe_

did not post low angle runway crashes.
Sure if in the the middle of the jungle mid flight is a low angle runway crash to you and if it will help you sleep better at night then by all means be my guest.

So you didn't post pictures of runway accidents - actually most of the shot are just that Low speed lowa angle
type accidents - at takeoff and landings which are the most common type of accident

Which is why you see large amount of debris - the impact forces are low enough that most of the aircraft
structure survives

High speed/high angle crashes dont leave a lot of large recognizable debris - most of the aircraft is fragmented
into small pieces and disbursed by the impact Unless you are close will not see much of the debris

Notice also did not post any flight numbers Why not....?

I asked if you had any experience in aircraft crashed - answer seems to be no (sitting in mommy's basement
watching videos does not count...)

Sorry, but you are either 1) not too bright 2) deliberately being deceptive 3) all of the above

I go with Door No 3 Monty.......

reply to post by Rafe_

Having been "near" a crash site qualifies you to what exactly ?

Lear 35A - hit ground at 350 mph (as determined by radar at angle of 80 deg) Biggest piece found was 2 x 3 ft
section of tail fin Rest was scattered around as "metallic confetti"

Walked the crash scene (belong to the Fire department) marking pieces of body (most was scraps of tissue
with little recognizable) for the coroner to recover

So I was up close and personal at the scene doing body recovery....

Here is summary of accident report

aviation-safety.net...

reply to post by ATH911


So when are you going to show us where the FBI said the debris was found 8 miles away? I'm waiting.

reply to post by hooper


I think hes mistaking light wind swept debris for large chunks of aircraft. I dont know how one can confuse the two. Ask him what type of debris was found.

Lets give a hint:

The debris found in New Baltimore include paper and nylon, Crowley said. He said that the items are lightweight and can easily be carried by wind. At the time of the crash, there was wind speed of 9 knots per hour heading to the southeast, where both Indian Lake and New Baltimore are located.

Does that sound like engine parts, wings, chunks of fuselage?

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by impressme

 

Not likely. There were many local witnesses to the crash. There was an obvious fuel fire and many parts were buried in soft earth beneath the crater. A flyover doesn't explain this.

*sigh* And your sources are?? Please, while you're saying "no they didn't" is fully your right, please provide some other kind of evidence other than your opinion.

None of what you are saying is true, from what I've read. Yes, there were witnesses, of course, and many conflicting versions from what I've read. So what exactly did you find these witnesses were quoted as saying? And where are your sources for such statements? And where are the many parts found in the soft earth below. I've seen a part of a turbine that may or may not be big enough to fit on a jet liner, but which surely does fit into the back hoe right next to it.

So please, show us pictures of the other parts of the airliner that was recovered out of the hole, and from supposed near by locations. And, while you're at it, maybe explain why it took them 4 1/2 years to release that one single picture of a piece of rusty mangled 'engine', found at the surface of a site they say they found the rest of the 'airplane' sunk 15 to 20 feet under.. in self closing loam. (?)

So, thanks for your helping with this. If you can provide all those things, it would be so helpful.

I notice you say that searchers filled 10 bins 'like' this one. So were they 'like' this one, or is this one of them?
And please reference the article that makes the claim that 60 tons of rubble (out of what should have been over 110 tons worth of airplane [empty]) was gained. Thanks!

Originally posted by thedman
reply to post by Rafe_

 

Having been "near" a crash site qualifies you to what exactly ?

Lear 35A - hit ground at 350 mph (as determined by radar at angle of 80 deg) Biggest piece found was 2 x 3 ft
section of tail fin Rest was scattered around as "metallic confetti"

Walked the crash scene (belong to the Fire department) marking pieces of body (most was scraps of tissue
with little recognizable) for the coroner to recover

So I was up close and personal at the scene doing body recovery....

Here is summary of accident report

aviation-safety.net...

I do find it interesting to note that the coroner himself was noted as saying he never found any blood, and that all he found was hands and feet.

Wally Miller, the coroner at Shanksville said he found no blood, but found human remains. When pushed on the question of finding human remains, Miller said...Yes/No/Some....and then said that the only remains found were hands and feet - nothing else. So, did Mr. Miller find 40 pair of each? If so, how is it that no other body parts survived? How is it that there was no blood? There was no fire to eviscerate any of the materials, so what happened to it - all.

Article here: www.flickr.com...

You know I've heard it said that the freemasons when they have a 'disagreement' with some one, will cut off their victim's hands and feet, and throw the rest of the body into a nearby body of water.. Isn't that weird that they only found hands and feet? Maybe they had a stash of them 'hand'y... (sorry, couldn't resist!)

reply to post by DragonriderGal


There have been many ATS threads on this topic and witness statements are available with an easy search. I don't have those sites saved and don't feel compelled to do your searches for you. Maybe what you have read in the past was designed to sell CD's and books. Some people actually pay for them while those that sell them have a financial interest in perpetuating their theories regardless of how far fetched they are.

As I remember, there were fuel fires and a burning airplane tire, parts were in trees, and human remains were scattered about, acccording to eyewitness first responders. Light weight materials were carried downwind after impact and parts were buried well beneath the surface in a crater, so the idea that these pieces were somehow dropped by another aircraft along with thousands of gallons of fuel is a stretch that only very few could accept. Responders were on site quickly and the CIA wouldn't have time to hide the crater digging equipment.
The shoot-down theory is a more common theory as most no-plane theories are held by those who are more gullible or really want to believe in such a theory. As to shoot-down, there were no reports of pieces up-track to show a missile hit or cannon strikes. An IR homer [Sidewinder] would have taken an engine and surrounding airframe, a radar guided missile with an expanding rod warhead would have gone for the main fuselage and guillotined it leaving a much more obvious debris trail over the track. The effect of this last would have been more like flight 800 with two big pieces of airplane coming down. Cannon fire would have torn off various pieces and left a trail of casings, somewhere. Nothing was ever reported.
Of course, there are doubting Thomases everywhere and even if they were given total access to all of the wreckage, they would say that it was planted by reptilians or the NWO or other personal demons.
That the plane was buried was a result of it not striking native rock and soil, like Flt 427 [see my previous posts in this thread for a link with photos], but a strip-mine reclamation site with loose fill.

reply to post by DragonriderGal

I do find it interesting to note that the coroner himself was noted as saying he never found any blood....

I've heard this line of "reasoning" before - why is it interesting? There were only 47 persons on board, that's about 52 gallons of blood. Its not like the trees were going to be dripping with blood after a firey high speed impact. There was probably about 30 gallons of beverages on board - would you expect there to be coffee and tea all over?

reply to post by DragonriderGal

I do find it interesting to note that the coroner himself was noted as saying he never found any blood, and that all he found was hands and feet.

So are you are pathologist?

Nothing unusual about this ....

At my crash scene we found a hand - minus the fingers along with several amputated fingers. This was out
of 4 victims

Hands and feet often can survivve because they are composed of numerous bones with tough fiberous tissues
in form of muscle, tendons, ligaments and connective tissue which hold them together

Also hands and feet being at the extremities are esaily disarticulated by violent impact

reply to post by DragonriderGal


Why ?? If I provide the link you probably simply dismiss it with some idiotic comment about being faked....

On the off chance you dont here is the links

Some 95% of the jet was recovered fromm the impact site

The FBI announced Monday that its investigation of the site where a hijacked jet slammed into a field here is complete and that 95 percent of the plane was recovered.

Crowley said the biggest piece of the plane that was recovered was a 6-by-7-foot piece of the fuselage skin, including about four windows. The heaviest piece, Crowley said, was part of an engine fan, weighing about 1,000 pounds.

articles.cnn.com...:US

Wallace Miller, Somerset County Coroner, conducted additional searches of the crash site to recover anything
missed

Miller said consultants with United Airlines suggested another search because bad weather this week might have shaken additional airplane parts out of the trees in a wooded area near the crash site. The coroner said the workers would also be looking for any human remains not already collected.

Some pieces of the aircraft -- most no larger than one square foot -- have already been found because of the bad weather, he said.
.

The Somerset County coroner said yesterday that he should know by this weekend if the last big sweep of the United Airlines Flight 93 crash scene yielded remains that he can link to any of the 44 people who were aboard the hijacked airliner.

Over the weekend, about 300 volunteers combed a half-mile square around the crash site and found enough debris from the Boeing 757 to fill about one-third of a trash container.

Most of it was little more than thumbnail size -- "no bigger than a pop rivet holding two pieces of aluminum," Miller said yesterday -- that last week's rains washed from trees bordering the stretch of strip mine where the airliner crashed nose-first Sept. 11.
.

www.post-gazette.com...

For years after the Pennsylvania State Police would see trainees to the site to conduct searches

reply to post by DragonriderGal

And please reference the article that makes the claim that 60 tons of rubble (out of what should have been over 110 tons worth of airplane [empty]) was gained. Thanks!

Almost forgot...

UNITED 93 was Boeing 757-200, smaller version of the 767 which hit WTC

Specifications 757-200 757-200F 757-300
Flight deck crew Two
Seating, typical 200 (two-class)
234 (one-class) N/A 243 (two-class)
289 (one-class)
Length 155 ft 3 in (47.32 m) 178 ft 8 in (54.47 m)
Wingspan 124 ft 10 in (38.05 m)
Tail height 44 ft 6 in (13.56 m)
Wing area 1,951.0 sq ft (181.25 m2)
Wing sweepback 25°
Wing aspect ratio 7.8
Wheelbase 60.0 ft (18.29 m) 73.3 ft (22.35 m)
Cabin width 11.6 ft (3.54 m)
Cabin length 118.4 ft (36.09 m) 141.8 ft (43.21 m)
Empty Weight 127,520 lb
(57,840 kg) 142,400 lb
(64,590 kg)
Maximum takeoff weight (MTOW) 255,000 lb
(115,680 kg) 272,500 lb
(123,600 kg)
Take-off run at MTOW 9,550 ft (2,910 m) 9,600 ft (2,900 m)
Cruise speed Mach 0.80 (530 mph, 458 knots, 850 km/h at cruise altitude of 35,000 ft or 10.66 km)1
Range, loaded 3,900 nmi (7,222 km)
−200WL: 4,100 mni (7,600 km) 3,150 nmi (5,834 km) 3,395 nmi (6,287 km)
Maximum fuel 11,489 US gal (43,490 L) 11,276 US gal (42,680 L) 11,466 US gal (43,400 L)
Service ceiling 42,000 ft (12,800 m)
Engines (2×) Rolls-Royce RB211, Pratt & Whitney PW2037, PW2040, or PW2043 turbofan engines
rated at 36,600 lbf (163 kN) to 43,500 lbf (193 kN) thrust each

757-200 weighs (empty) at 127,000 lbs. This is the basic aircraft structure. The fuel load would have been either
burned or disbursed on impact to soak into the ground.

This is the source of the "60 tons" of aircraft parts recovered.

Originally posted by thedman--


Ok, we saw a couple of pictures of a part here and there. But yet we heard about a piece of fuselage that was 6x7 foot, and others a foot square. But for some odd reason, there isn't any pictures of what should be a significant piece of proof (and verification that the part was in fact from a 757) nor from any of the rest of that 95% recovered.

I know from personal experience that the photographers of such events take pictures from one end of a crash site to the other and nothing is skipped. If they are out still searching, then there would still be photographers on site documenting what was found. So, really,where are the rest of the pictures?

And when exactly was that other 95% recovered? I don't see any date for that.

Originally posted by thedman
So are you are pathologist?

Nothing unusual about this ....

At my crash scene we found a hand - minus the fingers along with several amputated fingers. This was out
of 4 victims

Hands and feet often can survivve because they are composed of numerous bones with tough fiberous tissues
in form of muscle, tendons, ligaments and connective tissue which hold them together

Also hands and feet being at the extremities are esaily disarticulated by violent impact

At the two crash sites I helped photograph as a Marine Photographer, we never found a hand. We did find a foot in a boot and a bit of the head left inside the helmet, in one and a good sized piece of backbone in the other, but both crashes were fighter jets; one hitting at a good clip bouncing off the ground, from hillock to hillock; the other upside down, across a tarmac thru a hanger and out into the parking lot. Both of the crashes burned like crazy though, where as there are several of the witnesses who arrived pretty early on to the crash site, remarked how quiet it was.. how there was a couple trails of smoke, but no sign of a blazing fuel-inflamed fire as they would have expected.

So, do tell me why there wasn't more human remains found? Sure they whacked the ground pretty good, but didn't get dragged across 5 miles of desert, nor upside down across a tarmac while burning furiously. I can understand why in the cases I saw, but it just is an epic fail when I look at the Shanksville 'crash' site.

Originally posted by hooper

I've heard this line of "reasoning" before - why is it interesting? There were only 47 persons on board, that's about 52 gallons of blood. Its not like the trees were going to be dripping with blood after a firey high speed impact. There was probably about 30 gallons of beverages on board - would you expect there to be coffee and tea all over?

Because said blood should have been splattered all around the site; a little bit goes a long way, eh? And coffee and tea have are thin, easily absorbed. And it wasn't firey. None of the blood burned off. There should have been plenty of traces of it all around, especially near dismembered hands and feet.

Originally posted by pteridine
reply to post by DragonriderGal

 

There have been many ATS threads on this topic and witness statements are available with an easy search. I don't have those sites saved and don't feel compelled to do your searches for you. Maybe what you have read in the past was designed to sell CD's and books. Some people actually pay for them while those that sell them have a financial interest in perpetuating their theories regardless of how far fetched they are.

Well, since I never bought any of said material, it was a fail in my case. I just thought since you are always requiring us to show you proof, when such options are available to you as well, it was a reasonable request. You ask us to spend our time and energy to 'prove' our claims, hence I think it quite fair to require the same in return. Thanks!

Originally posted by pteridine:
As I remember, there were fuel fires and a burning airplane tire, parts were in trees, and human remains were scattered about, acccording to eyewitness first responders. Light weight materials were carried downwind after impact and parts were buried well beneath the surface in a crater, so the idea that these pieces were somehow dropped by another aircraft along with thousands of gallons of fuel is a stretch that only very few could accept. Responders were on site quickly and the CIA wouldn't have time to hide the crater digging equipment.

And as I noted before, more than one witness noted that if someone hadn't told them a plane crashed there, they'd have never known. In addition to the fact that a number of early arriving locals reported seeing no fire, said the place was eerily quiet.

“.If you were to go down there, you wouldn’t know that was a plane crash,” State police Maj. Lyle Szupinka continued. “You would look around and say, ‘I wonder what happened here?’ The first impression looking around you wouldn’t say, ‘Oh, looks like a plane crash. The debris is very, very small.
“The best I can describe it is if you’ve ever been to a commercial landfill. When it’s covered and you have papers flying around. You have papers blowing around and bits and pieces of shredded metal. That’s probably about the best way to describe that scene itself.” - Pittsburgh Live (09/14/01)

FOX News reporter: I want to get quickly to Chris Konicki; he's a photographer with the Pittsburgh affiliate of FOX affiliate. He was back there just a couple of minutes go and Chris, I've seen the pictures, it looks like there's nothing there except for a hole in the ground.
Chris Konicki: Ah, basically that's right. The only thing you can see from where we where, ah, was a big gouge in the earth and some broken trees. We could see some people working, walking around in the area, but from where we could see it, there wasn't much left.
Reporter: Any large pieces of debris at all?
Konicki: Na, there was nothing, nothing that you could distinguish that a plane had crashed there.
Reporter: Smoke? Fire?
Konicki: Nothing. It was absolutely quite. It was, uh, actually very quiet. Um, nothing going on down there. No smoke. No fire. Just a couple of people walking around. They looked like part of the NTSB crew walking around, looking at the pieces.
Reporter: How big would you say that hole was?
Konicki: From my estimates, I would guess it was probably about 20ft to 15ft long and probably 10ft wide.
Reporter: What could you see on the ground if anything other than dirt and ash and...
Konicki: You couldn't see anything. You could just see dirt, ash and people walking around, broken trees..." - FOX (09/11/01)

"Nena Lensbouer, who had prepared lunch for the workers at the scrap yard overlooking the crash site, was the first person to go up to the smoking crater....Lensbouer told AFP that she did not see any evidence of a plane then or at any time during the excavation at the site, an effort that reportedly recovered 95 percent of the plane and 10 percent of the human remains." - americanfreepress.net (09/17/04)

Again, shows that what you find, and what I find don't seem at all to be the same.

And if the CIA (or whoever) had prepped the site ahead of time, sure, they could have done the burying and moved all the stuff out long before the event, even. If they did all the digging quietly, after work hours, nobody would have even known they were there since it is a fairly remote location with only one location, the scrap yard, where people actually had a direct line of sight to the crash site. All the rest of the witnesses were behind trees and only heard the explosion with a fire ball, which went away after about 5 mins during which time it set a few of the trees beyond it on fire, which apparently spread from there. Just out of curiousity, why didn't the crash site burn on and on like the towers did?

Speculation here.

What if the plane wasn't shot down, but actually was a missile shot into the ground to cause the explosion? What was that white military type jet (reported by many of the locals) doing there, anyway? And if it was there to take pictures as some FBI guy told one of the witnesses (who saw the plane before the 'jetliner' even crashed), where are those pictures?

What if the white jet was there to actually shoot the missile, to simulate a plane crash? There'd be a plane, and a big explosion and a big pretty empty hole minus much wreckage, just like at the pentagon with only one witness to convince of what 'really' happened, no matter what he might have actually seen.

And the white jet might have even dropped some stuff on it's two circles around the area (before leaving like a jet fighter, straight up) like that seat cushion which miraculously survived to land on the lake house roof and all the tiny pieces of litter scattered around the site. Wouldn't have taken up much room. Could have easily been dropped out of a missile tube or two.

And what if some of these later 'recovered' pieces were dropped from some other airplane under the cover of darkness after the actual 'crash' happened, to be 'discovered' later by the searchers who were 'spreading out'?? No reason that couldn't have happened, especially if the CIA or FBI or whoever was starting to get a LOT of heat from TPTBs because way too many people were wondering where the heck the plane was.

Originally posted by pteridine

Of course, there are doubting Thomases everywhere and even if they were given total access to all of the wreckage, they would say that it was planted by reptilians or the NWO or other personal demons.
That the plane was buried was a result of it not striking native rock and soil, like Flt 427 [see my previous posts in this thread for a link with photos], but a strip-mine reclamation site with loose fill.

After flying on a C-141 for the better part of 8 years, sorry but I just can't buy it. (And yes, I was a photographer in the Marine Corps first) When I think of a 141 driving into the ground like that, I see pieces of the sides peeling off in big chunks, I see windows (the few on the sides anyway) shattering outward, I see it getting squished like a bug on the windshield--flattened out with it's butt sticking up in the air.

If you ever have actually flown on an airplane much, (nearly 4000 flight hours for me) you know how solid and meaty they actually are. They are heavy! They are filled with stuff.. wiring, seats, floor panels, hydraulic motors and fluids, wheels, bathroom parts, oxygen masks, seat frames with cushions, ovens and fridges from the galley; thousands of pounds of stuff that wouldn't disintegrate upon impact. And, really if one panel with windows broke off, why wouldn't a lot of them?

I see the plane peeling off pieces of stuff left and right as it pounds into the ground in my mind's eye. And then all the stuff inside gets thrown out by the impact too, especially if the sides are disintegrated as the OS wants you to believe! The place should have been a huge littered mess, acres of chunks of everything from single seats, full seats rows (which would NOT disintegrate on impact, sorry) to sides of the plane to inside liner insulation pieces, wires, oxygen masks, luggage, and bodies. They didn't get bounced across miles of desert, or slide upside down for 2 miles. Their bodies should have been there; ripped apart maybe but still all there, with the attendant blood.

And that 'wings' gouge was there on google earth since around 1994. It would have had plenty of time to settle and become pretty solid. It doesn't stay 'filled dirt' density for long. If you think that, obviously you've never had a garden that has to be re-tilled every year, eh?

reply to post by DragonriderGal


You did not disappoinjt - found an idiotic reason to dismiss any evidence which punctures your conspiracy fantasy ..

Want a 6 x 7 ft section of debris ???



Here is another significant section of debris



Most of the rest of the aircraft was violently fragmented into small pieces

As stated by FBI - largest piece was engine fan which rolled downhill and lodged in catch basin - it weigh 1000 lb

as for people - recovered 600 lbs of human remains, estimated at 8% of the total weight

In violent crash like this bodies are fragmented into what is called "human hamburger" . Scraps of tissue
with few recognizible pieces

On my crash scene - found 1/2 of torso, the hand and the fingers - rest was random scraps spread over the
scene