Aliens Exist, but Cannot Travel to Earth: A Loss for the Believer's Community?

And yes, I agree we just don't know, but I do so enjoy speculating!

Me too! It's why I started this thread.

Originally posted by franspeakfree
I believe this equation has fundamental relevance in the believers' community', to say otherwise is just portraying sheer ignorance.

The equation is junk. It is nothing but a thought exercise, not to demonstrate how many intelligent species are in the galaxy, but to figure out how much we do not know. It has no scientific validity beyond that.

Originally posted by franspeakfree
To believe that we are the only life forms in this giant jigsaw puzzle is just plain crazy...

Actually, it isn't crazy at all. Because we do not know. We could live in a biophilic galaxy or we could be all by our lonesome in the great big dark. We simply do not know. There are even hypothesis that if there is other intelligent life, it may be no more advanced than us (as an explanation for the Fermi Paradox). We will never know the answer until the day we find some conclusive evidence that we are not alone.

Originally posted by TrueBrit
To be quite frank, the fact that the scientific community is now saying that there is a mathematical probability that there are other intelligent lifeforms in the universe, is no suprise to anyone who has the ability to think about the sheer volume of space...

Actually, the scientific community is not "just now" saying this. The Green Bank Meeting, where Drake proposed his famous equation was held almost 50 years ago. While the "Lonely Earth" hypothesis was held by the scientific community, it was a distinct 20th century phenomenon, who's life was much shorter and far-less entrenched than is commonly-held, particularly among UFO believers.

reply to post by drsmooth23


Great point but...

I'm always going to go with Carl's description of Drake on this one. The shear numbers of planets is staggering it is simply impossible for there to be no other life in the known universe.

As far as it being impossible for space travel over great distances. I agree we humans cant do it. YET. Only time will tell the space shuttle for example goes around the Earth at a little over 17.000 miles per hour I'm pretty sure Christopher Columbus could not even imagine that.

In my opinion this is not going to be a case of creating an engine or craft that can over come speed barriers to travel great distances in short enough time to explore but rather a collapsing of space or folding of space.

The future possibility for this is in a better understanding of Quantum physics not in aeronautical engineering.









[edit on 12-3-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by Merigold

suggest that alien races are not capable of getting here, is baseless, arrogant, and above all illogical.

Some laws of the universe are just that, laws of the universe. But let's say that they can travel here, why would they? I accept that at some point should we not blow ourselves up first of course, we will have the technology to travel vast distances, but why would we unless it was for resources? Then agin..why travel far for them?

We have nothing that isn't in abundance in the universe. Unless you subscribe to the the more ridiculous ideas of us being food for them, or they built the pyramids and such.

And yes, I agree we just don't know, but I do so enjoy speculating!

Is mankind so arrogant to assume that our understanding of the laws of the universe are finite to our own limitation?

That in itself is even more ignorant.

Mankind has only existed for a tiny micro-fraction of the time the universe has existed. That micro-fraction of time is exactly what our knowledge base is compared to what could exist out there....a mere micro-fraction.

Unfortunatley we have not had an example drop into our laps to confirm the visitation by outer beings with vast superior knowledge (that we know of). In any case, we cannot justify an absolute when it is well known that there is so much more to learn.

Mankind has advanced with the passing of time. It is only logical that other civilizations who have been in existance long before us, have also advanced and continue to do so. We are stone age in comparison, dispite our own level of advances to us. Our level of technology will seem incredible to us, however to a vastly superior advanced civilization that may be a thousand fold ahead of us, will see us as primative beings playing with fire. And we do tend to play with fire a lot.

There is more to advancement of a civilization than just the technology. It is also social development, and most likey it is the most important advancement. Again, we would be the caveman age throwing stones at each other over primative and petty differences. We today look upon our own ancestor's primativeness and wonder how did we manage to live byond that. The highly advanced beings out there do the same thing, look upon us today and wonder how do we survive through such primative methods and ways of thinking.

We have merely just begun, but have a very long way to go.



Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by DaMod
You also have to keep in consideration that we have no idea what an intelligent species might be capable of. 1000 light years might take them 2 mins...

It could very well be that superluminal travel is impossible for anyone and everyone. However that is no reason to assume interstellar travel is impossible or that an intelligence would not travel beyond there planet to another.

the fundamental flaw with the drake equation is that in never asks us when these civilizations existed.

as for there being too many stars & planets for us to be the only intelligent life in the universe. Well the number may seem big from a human perspective but how do you know the chances of intelligent life arising are not trillions & trillions to 1?

There is more to advancement of a civilization than just the technology. It is also social development, and most likey it is the most important advancement

Absolutely agree with that. One of the reasons any potential visitors in my opinion would stay far away from us.

Originally posted by Merigold

There is more to advancement of a civilization than just the technology. It is also social development, and most likey it is the most important advancement

Absolutely agree with that. One of the reasons any potential visitors in my opinion would stay far away from us.

Indeed. Too early of exposure to a primative society could have devestating effects upon that primative society, even if said society has nuclear weapons and iPod's.

It is like this....we know that we can train a monkey to flip a switch, to ride a bicycle, to pick and choose the right flash card, and even work a computer, but does that mean that the monkey is socially developed?


Cheers!!!!

Originally posted by yeti101
the fundamental flaw with the drake equation is that in never asks us when these civilizations existed.

as for there being too many stars & planets for us to be the only intelligent life in the universe. Well the number may seem big from a human perspective but how do you know the chances of intelligent life arising are not trillions & trillions to 1?

Great point, your statement still confirms the possibility. Because we are dealing with a situation way beyond trillions and trillions in numbers it's "beyond" human understanding that's you, me and everybody reading this!

These numbers with regards to the possibility are way beyond our understanding.

Drakes equation still stands

Originally posted by yeti101
the fundamental flaw with the drake equation is that in never asks us when these civilizations existed.

Actually, I think the equation proposes how many intelligent civilizations exist in our galaxy at any given moment, not in the history of the galaxy.

reply to post by SaviorComplex


Good point.
Factor that in and it just skews the numbers even more so in the possible.

you have to remember that every thing we know is stuff that at one point we taught ourselves.

How do we know that our eathbased mathematics reflect the actual universal mathematical scheme? How do we know that E=Mc1?

Everything outside of life forms on this planet are human constructs, and most people on this site would have you believe that human constructs are usually flawed.

This is hardly a loss for the believer's community, as its an absolute erroneous idea. The loss will be for the cabal, when mobs of angry people finally get it and descend upon them for hording secret technology and working with ets in cooperations and using this knowledge and these toys against the public.

For the believers who have already witnessed crafts, had psi communication and experienced both abductions and contact, often in the company of others, and often whole families, and generational at that, they already know. They're not fooled. And many are coming out.

[edit on 12-3-2009 by mystiq]

Originally posted by Merigold
Some laws of the universe are just that, laws of the universe. But let's say that they can travel here, why would they? ...

I don't mean to be rude here, but I feel it necessary to point out that there is no known law of the universe that says you can't get there from here, or vice versa.

There are theories that the distances are too vast to travel within the timeframe of a single human lifetime.

But there is no law of the universe saying it's impossible to do.

Originally posted by Merigold
We have nothing that isn't in abundance in the universe.

I've got a few interesting theories as to why they come, however I feel it important to illustrate that we humans travel vast distances merely to study life, and I don't find it terribly unbelievable that an advanced race would do the same.

We do have one thing in abundance, that is very much an undeveloped resource. Algae. I know it sounds silly, but it's one of my pet theories and I just thought you might want to consider the possibility...

-WFA

reply to post by drsmooth23


A. Is there intelligent life out there besides our own?

B. Can they travel here in spite of the great distances?

There are two questions here really.

Drakes equation can address the first with both pro and con.
The second really depends on if they have an understanding of science that is years or centuries beyond our own. That brings us back to A. when did they Reach that level of understanding?

reply to post by drsmooth23


Wow where do I begin... First of all light travel isn't impossible. Its possible to accelerate to the speed of light without breaking the laws of physics. Well there is one way, but I'm not going to go into that because it is irrelevant to the following. We on earth already know you can bend space/time to travel (even though we can't do it yet). Why couldn't an older more intelligent race master this. BTW we are not the most intelligent species on this planet, Dolphins are. Half your assumptions where based on pure conjecture. How could you possibly know about the evolutionary path of a creature that has had much more time than us to evolve. Sure intelligent life may not be common but I doubt for a second that we are the most advanced (especially since we are discovering more in the last 20 years than we have in the last 2000 years). Most scientists will even tell you we have not begun to scratch the surface.

Link Explaining E=MC2

[edit on 12-3-2009 by DaMod]

Originally posted by yeti101
the fundamental flaw with the drake equation is that in never asks us when these civilizations existed.

Actually that isn't true. The variable Fl represents the 'when' field:
"fL is fraction of the planet's life during which the communicating civilizations live..."

Source: www.activemind.com...

Originally posted by yeti101
as for there being too many stars & planets for us to be the only intelligent life in the universe. Well the number may seem big from a human perspective but how do you know the chances of intelligent life arising are not trillions & trillions to 1?

Well, you do it by using a formula like the Drake Equation, which gives you reasonable odds (variant by your estimate of the variables). What's truly beautiful about the formula, is that even as we learn more about our surrounding universe, the new variables can be added in to give us a clearer picture of what life in the universe might be. That's called an A Priori Prediction, in practical Science, and it's one method of testing a hypothesis.

Frankly we're all pretty sure that the chances of intelligent life arising are not trillions and trillions to 1, because we're able to do conservative estimates using observed evidence, and apply critical thinking to the problem.

Like Frank Drake did.

I'm sorry Yeti, but there is no 'fundamental flaw' in an adaptable formula that helps to describe the universe.

-WFA

reply to post by mystiq


That's fine, but the problem is that witnesses, abductees, experiencers are in a VAST minority. For the cabal to be afraid, there would have to be official, verifiable disclosure. Not loads upon loads of anecdotal evidence.

And if there never is, in our lifetime? I admit, I am extremely saddened by the thought of not knowing a significantly larger amount of info than we already do. That is of course quite a pessimistic point of view, and not likely all the same. However, I state it to point out the we need something BIG. The reality of it all needs to become as clear and visible as the Sun.

On the one hand you have Drake's equation and on the other you have Fermi's paradox.

I'm another that subscribes to any likelihood proffered by the Drake equation. My take on the Fermi paradox is that in an incredibly short period, there's been an industrial revolution on earth and, in and even more recent period, the development of air travel.

Our understanding of science changes every few decades. What was once thought of 'universal' such as Newtonian physics is only now really applicable to a subset of physics as much of the quantum world has it's own set of laws. These laws will themselves be revised over the coming decades as we witness and understand more and more. As always, new doors will be opened and new opportunities will arise. What was unthinkable and impossible yesterday won't always be the case.

Originally posted by Elepheagle
I state it to point out the we need something BIG. The reality of it all needs to become as clear and visible as the Sun.

Illuminati (plural of Latin illuminatus, "enlightened")
How do we know that hasn't already happened both in ancient times and recently but has been covered up by the powers that be?

I digress but it is applicable to the topic.