Originally posted by SantaClaus
Gun ownership is fine, and I plan on purchasing a Glock in the near future.

If this is your first handgun — and it sounds like it is — you probably need to research your options more thoroughly before leaping straight for a Glock. The Glock (in whatever caliber you choose) is mostly molded of composite materials rather than metal, so a Glock is going to be about 18% lighter in weight than a conventional all-metal semi-automatic. What this means, speaking from experience, is that a Glock is more likely to jump when you discharge it, especially with the hotter loads, meaning that you have to take time to recover your target. I've had a Glock G36 (compact 45 auto) for several years, and I can tell you that it is not a speed shooter. With a Glock, you actually waste time trying to recover your target; and, in an emergency situation, that aint good.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
However, when does carrying one around during your day to day go from being an act of preparedness to being an elicit invitation for trouble to find you?

Well, if you have to ask that question, you may not be ready to carry a handgun. Responsible and properly trained gun owners understand full well the grave responsibiltiy of deadly force, and they very consciously avoid reaching for their firearms in all but the most life-threatening of situations. Most of the gun owners that I know are very, very discreet with their weaponry, haven't had to pull a gun on anyone ever; more than that, most of the gun owners I know are excellent diplomats who will either talk their way out of a situation or simply walk away from it. So, trouble is no more likely to come looking for a responsible gun owner than for an unarmed citizen. Difference is, if trouble does coming calling, the gun owner has a fighting chance.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
The only people in THIS city who carry guns are carrying them to cause problems. I think you are justifying something unjustifiable.

So, there are no armed police in your city? I think you're making too much of a sweeping generalization here. How can you say that the only people who carry guns [wherever you are] do so to intentionally cause problems? Truth is, there are millions more — even tens of millions more — responsible and law-abiding gun owners in America than there are gun-toting criminals. That's the incredibly stupid thing about gun control legislation — it punishes the tens of millions of law abiding gun owners, but has little or no impact on the small community of armed criminals who are going to break the law anyway.

Better to encourage responsible gun ownership if you want to see the crime rate plummet.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Guns are an OFFENSIVE WEAPON. Not defensive. If you want to argue being proactive, then buy your entire family dragon skin and make them wear it 24/7.. Maybe that's not manly enough?

And with those statements, you reveal a couple of things about yourself: 1) That you don't know enough about firearms and responsible gun ownership to own a handgun, and 2) That you are mired in a lot of anti-gun clichés, which would seem to indicate that you're an anti-gunner.

A firearm is a tool, it's an implement with a specific use. The notion of offensive or defensive weaponry only occurs in the mind of the user. A guy with a paring knife can go on rampage and murder and injure just as many people as any gunman. So, is a paring knife an offensive or defensive weapon? Neither. The application of the tool is entirely in the mind of the user.

I can promise you that guns are drawn by police officers hundreds (if not thousands) of times every day all across this country; but hardly any of those guns are fired. Criminal and potentially criminal situations are regularly resolved without ever dropping the hammer.

You see, just the appearance of the firearm can and does deter far more serious situations from developing. Now, do you call that offensive use of a firearm, or defensive?

I call it a proper and responsible use of deadly force, which a criminal does respect, even if no shots are fired. It's a deterrent, a force or obstacle that prevents certain actions (usually criminal) from taking place.

So how is deterring crime a "manly" or "macho" obsession? It should be everybody's concern and everybody's duty to deter crime, don't you think?

— Doc Velocity





[edit on 3/11/2009 by Doc Velocity]

Originally posted by SantaClaus
But, for all the times I've seen a gun pulled on me, I can guarantee the aggressor would have pulled the trigger a lot easier had I been packing myself.

This is sounding more and more like anti-gun propaganda. One of the favorite anti-gun scenarios is that a bad guy breaks into your home, you pull a gun on him, he snatches the gun away from you and kills you with it. MORAL: Don't keep guns in your home, it only antagonizes the bad guys.

Which is, of course, utter nonsense. The anti-gun mantra seemingly always boils down to "An unarmed citizen is more likely to survive than an armed citizen." It's America's Big Lie, and it's just illogical. Common sense tells you that an unarmed citizen is the easiest target of all, while an armed citizen is the most dangerous to the survival of the criminal. Just the appearance of a firearm is generally enough to send a bad guy scurrying away like the cockroach he is.

If I may pursue this, you say "for all the times I've had a gun pulled on me..." and that really puzzles me. Does this mean you've looked down the barrel on more than one occasion? But you've never retaliated? Do you not see a correlation? You've never stood up to street crime, and it keeps happening to you.

That's the perpetual victim mentality — Well, yeah, the crime is pretty bad, but if I don't antagonize them, I'll survive another day. Please enlighten me... What does survival mean if you're a perpetual victim? There is a reason to stand up and fight sometimes — you know, weigh your quality of life against the sum total of fear and humiliation you're willing to endure.

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by SantaClaus
But just let me privy you to my experience with gun CARRIERS... The people I knew who carried were police officers and morons... The guys I knew who carried, were dangerous people... Most of the people (or cowboys, in their heads) who carried in Phoenix that I knew, were racist, drunken, hillbillies with no real reason to own, other than they wanted that particular chance to "defend" themselves.

Okay, I would immediately say that you were moving in a bad crowd. Wow.

I was raised on a ranch in Texas, and I learned about firearms from a very, very young age. As we tended the chores around our property, we wore belts with hammers and tin-snips and ratchets and fence-mending gear, and we just as readily carried handguns, shotguns and rifles. We grew up with guns in our hands, as did our neighbors several miles away in every direction. It wasn't unusual to meet several of our friends and neighbors down at the Dairy Queen in town, and there would be orange vests and handguns and shotguns and rifles over in the corner — placed there by the patrons as a courtesy to the management.

Now, that was 35 years ago, but I can assure you that I've been all over this country — all over the South, way up in northern Wisconsin, up in Montana and Idaho and elsewhere, and there is still a very respectable, very responsible, and very large community of gun owners in America, folks who pack heat everyday — not that you'd know it, because they aren't assholes.

Yes, I know there are morons in this world, and criminals, and I know they gravitate to the large cities like maggots to a rotting carcass. Because that's where the easy jobs are and that's where the victims are. The city is where people gather for some imagined security in numbers, but all they manage to do is isolate themselves from the natural world and concentrate the worst of humanity into a cesspool of impulse, greed and insanity.

Doesn't really matter what "weapons" are made available to the animals in the city — there are so many bad brains in the urban areas that they could just as readily use bottle-openers and golf clubs as weapons.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Really, if you're looking at a 45 (I'm not) I think recoil is an issue regardless. But I'm a big man, so I can get a 40 centered pretty quickly.

Okay, we're on the same page. I'm a big guy, too, big enough to use a 45 automatic as a backup piece. I apologize for calling you an anti-gunner, I thought you were sending up some red flags earlier.

No, I'm not crazy about the 45 — fact is, I pawn my Glock .45 pretty regularly, because it holds some special value for the guys over at the pawn shop, they just love it. Actually, for my personal firearm, I prefer the Browning High Power 9mm — lightweight, perfect balance, accurate at distance, mind-blowing penetration, it's just a piece of art.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I'm sorry that I think your viewpoint is a little bit too ideal to be true.

I'm not sure what that means. Say again?

— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by Doc Velocity

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I'm sorry that I think your viewpoint is a little bit too ideal to be true.

I'm not sure what that means. Say again?

— Doc Velocity

Ok, I did my best to really respect the post, as I believe you to be one of the "good ones" as far as weapons carriers go..

But to call those people maggots? Listen, live it before you title it. I didn't try to label you as a hick or anything. I am no social worker, and I do nothing to condone the actions of some of the people I work with, but I don't associate with anyone who would be so stupid as to use a gun as an intimidator.

Want to carry your piece in your location? Fine.

What I meant is that your situation is a utopia for gun carriers. It is the BEST kind of place to own and carry a gun.

I don't want to act like I live a tough life. I am far from it. I live a pretty coosh life as far as Philly is concerned. I live in a very nice area with lots of old ladies who bake me cupcakes and kiss me on the cheek.

But things change past 12am. I work late. I know that every place is dangerous and it is my opinion that me carrying a sidearm is more danger than good.

Again, just my individual opinion... probably not true for you.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
I did my best to really respect the post, as I believe you to be one of the "good ones" as far as weapons carriers go... But to call those people maggots? Listen, live it before you title it. I didn't try to label you as a hick or anything. I am no social worker, and I do nothing to condone the actions of some of the people I work with, but I don't associate with anyone who would be so stupid as to use a gun as an intimidator.

Again, you're sending mixed signals. You said:

"But just let me privy you to my experience with gun CARRIERS... The people I knew who carried were police officers and morons... The guys I knew who carried, were dangerous people... Most of the people (or cowboys, in their heads) who carried in Phoenix that I knew, were racist, drunken, hillbillies with no real reason to own, other than they wanted that particular chance to "defend" themselves."

Now, you are the one calling them morons, dangerous, cowboys, racist, drunken, and hillbillies, who were just looking for a reason to shoot somebody.

Yeah, I likened such morons and criminals to maggots feeding off of the rotting carcass of the urban environment. I called them maggots, after you had labeled them every other derogatory term.

What puzzles me about your posts is this: On the one hand, you say you're going to buy a gun because you've been repeatedly victimized; and, on the other hand, you have this myopic and bigoted view of gun-owners as morons, racists, hillbillies and hicks. Which is so far from reality that it causes me to wonder if you're playing with a full deck.

I mean, you sound like an anti-gunner who's actually thinking about buying a gun, and maybe you hate yourself for it. One thing is for certain, if you're so emotionally and intellectually torn on the issue, you shouldn't be playing with firearms — because, when the moment of truth arrives, you're probably going to shoot yourself in the cods.



— Doc Velocity

Originally posted by bamaoutlaw


i tried to edit and add author unknown but cant figure out how to edit, i thought it was a good poem but never said i wrote it,

But that's how it came across, especially with your opening line!
For the record, it sounds like something someone sitting on a porch, chewing grass stalks, wearing dungarees and smoking a corn pipe would say, and that scares me somewhat!

Doc, I would much rather someone like you carry a gun than most people, from what I've seen here....though in all honesty (and rampant idealism) I would much rather that no one carried a gun!

Originally posted by aorAki
I don't carry a gun.

I'm not paranoid.

I'm lucky that I live in New Zealand because it means I don't have to deal with nutters who feel it is their right to carry a gun (and yes I read the whole OP).

Are things maybe different there, like maybe people respect eachother so there is no need to worry?

Here we have 300 million people....of which about 100 million are just really ignorant .

Some people here in the states also could give 2 shats about your life and will do whatever they want because of their ego.

Do you have that there in Beautiful New Zealand ?

BTW Flight of the concords is amazing.

Originally posted by SantaClaus
Gun ownership is fine, and I plan on purchasing a Glock in the near future.

However, when does carrying one around during your day to day go from being an act of preparedness to being an elicit invitation for trouble to find you?

In your home, I think having a gun is a great idea. In your car as well.

But you said "I'm not a cowboy," then what are you? I mean, lets say someone pulls a gun on you. In your self defense, you, the better marksmen, win the gunfight. The guy dies. Now it is your word against the evidence. Who says you don't spend life in jail?

The only people in THIS city who carry guns are carrying them to cause problems. I think you are justifying something unjustifiable.

Guns are an OFFENSIVE WEAPON. Not defensive. If you want to argue being proactive, then buy your entire family dragon skin and make them wear it 24/7.. Maybe that's not manly enough?

Well what is a good defensive weapon against a gun than?

I would love to hear some suggestions.

sometimes the best defense is a good offence.

I'll add this:

I carry a gun because in Cuba, where my parents are from, you cannot and are not allowed to protect yourself from government tyranny.

I carry a gun because after the experiences I've had in third world nations I have come to see the parallels between despotism there and despotism here.

I carry a gun, because even though I'm an immigrant, I will fight tooth and nail to protect this nation and it's contitution against all threats foreign and domestic.

I carry a gun, because as an immigrant from a slave nation my gun guarantees that I will live out the rest of my days in my new home. The Free United States. Or die trying to keep it free.

I carry a gun because it is my right and my duty to do so as an American.

On a day that 20/20 is airing a "special" on guns, leaning towards scaring an ignorant and impressional populace... This thread is great!

Doc Velocity... I pity the poor souls that try to break into your castle! Nice pieces!

To the guy in Philly... I grew up between Belmont Ave, and Harrisburg. I live in the 'burg now, but still have plenty of family in the city of brotherly love. While I can sympathise with your assessment of the gun crime rate to some degree... I also ask this: With proper training and plenty of practice, wouldn't you rather be carrying in the situations where you may be faced with armed adversaries? If not, I don't think you want a Glock.

The only reason in my eyes to have a semi-auto sidearm is for either a backup to a long gun, or for concealed carry. The first option would be open-carry, therefore not practical for everyday.

If you're worried about home defense, get you a good shotgun... easier to master, safer, more reliable, etc.

Even a revolver would be better for a first time gun owner... for safety and reliability reasons if nothing else.

Don't get the Glock because that's what the rappers talk about, or because it's "sexy".

Listen to the OP's grandpa. Get a multi-purpose firearm like a shotgun, and start shooting clay birds!

I don't carry a gun because I cannot think of any likely threat to my life or property that would be reduced or avoided were I to carry one.

Of course, since no-one else carries a gun round here I do have that advantage

[edit on 10-4-2009 by Essan]