Originally posted by Colonel
Maybe we should just leave as the Iraqis want us to. They don't want us there. We'll let the UN fix things as they ought to.

Leave like the couple of thousand bad Iraqis want us to, so they can proceed to shuck and devour the other hundreds of thousands that want no part of violence? These insurgents want power. They are too stupid to use any means to gain power other than firepower and violence. Should these people be left to shape the future of Iraq?

And as far as the UN fixing things, when have they EVER fixed anything? And with what will they fix it, dear Colonel, dear Colonel? A hatchet? They only borrow troops to fix things, and it's usually us, then they proceed to issue ROE that put soldiers at more risk. I know, I worked for the ineffectual bastards for over a year. Let them hand out medicine...

DC

Originally posted by JediMaster
If the Iraqis are unahppy with us, we'll give them Saddam back to rule them, see how they like it.

They didnt ask us to remove him in the first place.

First, I question the authenticity of that report, or that it reports everything that really happened. Have you ever seen any reports from the middle east reporting any evil done by their own government/s? I haven't.

But in the US people keep saying we are not free, yet you find all kinds of allegations from US news of the "evil" that the US government is doing.
I wonder what media is really censored and for what reason....

Actually, I don't have to wonder much, this is what dictators usually do, they "really control" the media and there "are no publications" speaking against these dictatorships. Anyone found trying to bash the evil of their dictators/country either dissapears or are given life sentances spending the rest of their lives in prison and in obscurity.

Second, if this reported "part" of something that really happened, would you blame the US forces after all the attacks they have suffered?

When you are in combat there is a lot of stress and fear involved. BTW, I wouldn't be surprised if many of those "innocent people, even children" have weapons and were using them against the coalition.

Many of these "innocent children" are raised learning how to use weapons, and that is the first toy for many of these children.


[Edited on 15-4-2004 by Muaddib]

Would you want a tyrant who gasses innocent people to rule you? Would you want someone who won't allow any political opposition to ruel you? Do you want someone who censors what he does not like to rule ypu?

Originally posted by Ocelot

Originally posted by JediMaster
If the Iraqis are unahppy with us, we'll give them Saddam back to rule them, see how they like it.

They didnt ask us to remove him in the first place.

________

You know, you're absolutely correct! I listened to practically every fair, unbiased Iraqi news source that existed while Saddam was in power, and don't remember anyone ever once saying they wanted him removed.

Further proof was the presidential election results. He won with close to 100% of the vote, as I remember. Can't argue with facts!

_______________

Would you want a tyrant who gasses innocent people to rule you? Would you want someone who won't allow any political opposition to ruel you? Do you want someone who censors what he does not like to rule ypu?

I may be wrong, but I assume people are people, no matter where you go. The average Iraqi probably cares about his government as much as the average American does. I think if the majority of people have say, electricity, water, things that affect them immediately, they really don't care if the government is doing bad things to people who don't live in their neighborhoods. Saddam gassed the Kurds. Say America gassed the blacks? Or England the Irish? As long as the majority of people, who are sheep, have what they need, they really don't care. So, the vibe I am getting, and I was there, is this. When Saddam was in power, my toilet flushed and I could watch tv and turn on my lights. The Americans came, now I can't.

Originally posted by Ocelot

Originally posted by J0HNSmith
Well to make those kind of accusations after only hearing one side of the story is kind of premature. For all we know he could of had some of his terrorist kidnaping friends beat him and say the US did it. Coming from people who murder and kidnap people I wouldn't doubt that this was some kind of suicide propaganda.

Translation: BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH! Im not believing any news that speaks bad of US troops! BLAH BLAH BLAH!

WOW. Very Insightful

You still didn't answer what I said. Maybe you just don't want to concede that I'm right. It's ok, humility isn't something I'd expect from someone who is as one sided as you.

Originally posted by curme

I may be wrong, but I assume people are people, no matter where you go. The average Iraqi probably cares about his government as much as the average American does. I think if the majority of people have say, electricity, water, things that affect them immediately, they really don't care if the government is doing bad things to people who don't live in their neighborhoods. Saddam gassed the Kurds. Say America gassed the blacks? Or England the Irish? As long as the majority of people, who are sheep, have what they need, they really don't care. So, the vibe I am getting, and I was there, is this. When Saddam was in power, my toilet flushed and I could watch tv and turn on my lights. The Americans came, now I can't.

_______

Please. You must be kidding. Seriously. Tell me you don't really mean this.

___________

The troops were obviously under extreme stress from the fighting, losing comrades, being away from home, and having to deal with people who jaber away in Aarabic. You mix in a picture of a guy who is helping murder troops, and well yeah, I can see how things get out of hand. Its a tense situation, guns go off by a simple stress twitch, people die, tell me why this is so important. I guess Im dancing around saying: the guy had it coming.

Please. You must be kidding. Seriously. Tell me you don't really mean this.

Look at your sig! Do you really think people care about their government? Look how crooked our government is. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter. Where is the outrage? Now imagine having a foreign power in your country, inturrupting your (I mean average people) favorite tv program? Ok, a little flippant, but you get my point. But hey, that's just my two cents, I'm open to new ideas.

EDIT: Oh, I just thought of a point. Everyone says about the whole Bush/Gore thing, about how America's vote was spilt. But it is actually the number of voters, which is just a small percentage of America. So that small percentage who voted, got screwed. The rest of America didn't care enough to vote in the first place. So I'm saying, if Americans don't care about their government. How can you hold Iraqi's to a higher standard?

Originally posted by JediMaster
Would you want a tyrant who gasses innocent people to rule you? Would you want someone who won't allow any political opposition to ruel you? Do you want someone who censors what he does not like to rule ypu?

No, probably not. But removing Saddam is far from our problem.

I'm pretty tired of the "We needed to get this crazy dictator out of power" crap. I guess we can handle 51 years of Castro, but Saddam (the man we helped calibrate mustard gas and sold supplies to make it) is one damn aweful Son of a Bitch.

Damn we are really a generous and helpful people.

Someone should give us a #ing ribbon. Why do they hate us?

Originally posted by J0HNSmith
You still didn't answer what I said. Maybe you just don't want to concede that I'm right. It's ok, humility isn't something I'd expect from someone who is as one sided as you.

WOW. I've been called many things in my life but ive never been called "one sided"! Thanx

Originally posted by curme

Look at your sig! Do you really think people care about their government? Look how crooked our government is. Democrat or Republican, it doesn't matter. Where is the outrage? Now imagine having a foreign power in your country, inturrupting your (I mean average people) favorite tv program? Ok, a little flippant, but you get my point. But hey, that's just my two cents, I'm open to new ideas.

_______________

This is your world, not mine. This and your original post.

We're all of us free to believe what we want. I happen to have more faith in the human spirit. I also happen to believe that the entire world is not on the same rung of the evolutionary ladder. Since it is impossible to go backwards, the only solution is to reach an equal footing. But that won't happen in our lifetimes.
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It works both ways, ocelot.

Carrying around the picture of a man who instigates and calls his followers to kill americans isnt a good way to get the already short wired stressed out troops to be kind.

Provocation works both ways, its not a one way street, its a vicious circle. remeber that.

Originally posted by Agent47
The troops were obviously under extreme stress from the fighting, losing comrades, being away from home, and having to deal with people who jaber away in Aarabic.

This is acceptable? They are soldiers dude, if they can't hack it they shouldn't be there. This is just testement on your behalf of how unprofessional a lot of them are, you said it. To justify the death of one civilian at the hands of multiple US troops because they were "under extreme stress from fighting" is both hilarious and disgusting at the same time.

Oh yeah, damn those Iraqis for "jabbering away in arabic" in there own country. They should know better eh? How about the US troops learn to speak the #ing language of the countries they plan to invade?

Originally posted by cargo

Originally posted by Agent47
The troops were obviously under extreme stress from the fighting, losing comrades, being away from home, and having to deal with people who jaber away in Aarabic.

This is acceptable? They are soldiers dude, if they can't hack it they shouldn't be there. This is just testement on your behalf of how unprofessional a lot of them are, you said it. To justify the death of one civilian at the hands of multiple US troops because they were "under extreme stress from fighting" is both hilarious and disgusting at the same time.

Oh yeah, damn those Iraqis for "jabbering away in arabic" in there own country. They should know better eh? How about the US troops learn to speak the #ing language of the countries they plan to invade?

I can prob guess your no older than 16, with little military experience, and an affinity for men. Soldiers are people, something liberals like to overook. Imagine humping miles a day in 96 degree plus heat, with the cacophony of small arms fire echoing every couple steps, blood stains on street corners, COs yelling commands into your ear, the strap of your rifle bearing down on your shoulder blades, ungrateful people yelling at you for no reason other than you are there, you didnt ask to be there but you followed orders cause you have something called integrity, friends of yours have died, you cant sleep at night from the sounds of shells raining down on compounds, not knowing whether your gonna live to see tommorow. Now tell me that doesnt create a highly stressful situation. Liberals support letting off mexican illegals who murder their slave runners under extreme stress, and yet your gonna tell these young men that if they make one mistake they should be crucified.

And sure, if you want the military to learn the language of every country before they invade it thats ok, but Id like to see you put in 6 months of time too. Hump that sally.

Cargo, speak not of things you dont udnerstand unless you know exactly what thier situation is. Unless youve picked up a rifle and have lived in a hostile tense combat zone, id suggest you keep quite about soldiers "hacking it".

Idf one looks at the definition of military, invasion, and conquest, until this skewed century, the job of the soldiers pretty much was to wipe out the conquered and pave the way for the conquerers. Peacekeeping and occuptation is unatural.

Every army who has occupied another country has made it a point to kick the # out of civilian insurgants. Romans, huns, mongols, Russians, Nazis, ect.

Inthe Ukraine, there was a town where the Nazis made it a point to kill ten civilians for every German soldiers that was killed by rebels.

The idiot in this cab was playing with his own fool life. Driving into a zone of Americans, carrying the picture of a man who is stoking the attacks on thier fellow soldiers, and then doesnt understand why he gets is face kicked in is a fool.

If I had been there under those circumstances, I would have kicked his face in too. And asked question later.

Provocation is a circular thing.

Originally posted by Ocelot

Originally posted by J0HNSmith
You still didn't answer what I said. Maybe you just don't want to concede that I'm right. It's ok, humility isn't something I'd expect from someone who is as one sided as you.

WOW. I've been called many things in my life but ive never been called "one sided"! Thanx

Yes, when you hear one side of a story and refuse to consider that there is another side that may bring more light onto the incident, that makes you one sided. i.e.. forming a solid opinion about the events leading to this man being beaten to death without hearing what all parties involved have to say.

Originally posted by Agent47

I can prob guess your no older than 16, with little military experience, and an affinity for men. Soldiers are people, something liberals like to overook. Imagine humping miles a day in 96 degree plus heat, with the cacophony of small arms fire echoing every couple steps, blood stains on street corners, COs yelling commands into your ear, the strap of your rifle bearing down on your shoulder blades, ungrateful people yelling at you for no reason other than you are there, you didnt ask to be there but you followed orders cause you have something called integrity, friends of yours have died, you cant sleep at night from the sounds of shells raining down on compounds, not knowing whether your gonna live to see tommorow. Now tell me that doesnt create a highly stressful situation. Liberals support letting off mexican illegals who murder their slave runners under extreme stress, and yet your gonna tell these young men that if they make one mistake they should be crucified.

And sure, if you want the military to learn the language of every country before they invade it thats ok, but Id like to see you put in 6 months of time too. Hump that sally.

You are free to assume my age, but given your recently deleted hitman avatar and sig, I'd hazard a guess that video games are the closest thing to combat you've ever seen.

You see, the only time my military would need me is in defence of my countrys soil, not because of masculinity and male bonding issues in high school as I suspect your reasons are. I was not forced to seek military service to go through University. That was achievable because of the kind of education system we had back then (and I pray we can keep for my kids sake). If the only people who are worth a damn to you are those who join the military then spare a thought for those who are robbed of 50% of their salary to pay your wages.

You are trying to justify the beating to death of a man by multiple US troops because of stress? Answer me why they couldnt have detained the man rather than beat him to death? Why couldn't they have just taken the picture and destroyed it? Integrity eh? Remember Lt. William Calley was just following orders too right?

I'm no liberal, you just like to pigeon hole anyone opposed to you unreasonable logic. I just know right from wrong. The thing is most US military personnel are probably not like you, are able to reason, excercise logic and are there so they can go to university and make something of themselves. Not just to see some action.

As for learning the dialect if the country, that's what a professional does. If it takes 6 months for you to learn a variety of important arabic phrases then I feel sorry for you. You can use a computer, I'm sure you could learn to use one of those pocket translator gizmos. Smoke that Jethro.

Originally posted by cargo


You see, the only time my military would need me is in defence of my countrys soil, not because of masculinity and male bonding issues in high school as I suspect your reasons are. I was not forced to seek military service to go through University. That was achievable because of the kind of education system we had back then (and I pray we can keep for my kids sake). If the only people who are worth a damn to you are those who join the military then spare a thought for those who are robbed of 50% of their salary to pay your wages.

The thing is most US military personnel are probably not like you, are able to reason, excercise logic and are there so they can go to university and make something of themselves. Not just to see some action.

50% of their salary? You really should stick to topics you're informed on.

"I was not forced to seek military service to go through University." You're not from the US are you, because no one here talks like that. You go "TO" a University not "through" it. Although a lot of people in the US military do have a degree and it's a good job to have if you can stick with it.

As far as commenting on what could have should have would have happened to the Iraqi man, we don't know the whole story so why form an opinion about it?