The END of Hate Speech, subtle or otherwise, on ATS

My goodness.

All the confusion, all the grandstanding... all over a simple request.

And it really is simple if you think about it.

Debate and talk about whatever you want to debate and talk about. No one has said that any topic is off limits. The key is how you discuss the topic.

You can talk about Israel, you can talk about Gaza, you can talk about Islam.

You can do that without resorting to terms like leeches, parasites, big nose jews, towelheads, crazy arabs, mad bombers etc.

You can do that without behaving like a dirty bigoted troll by "innocently" making threads that mock the customs of other religions, for example cracking jokes about circumcision simply because you don't like it.

If you're not capable of discussing the pros and cons of religious circumcision without resorting to making stupid statements about "what do the jews do with the foreskins" then please, find somewhere else to go.

Many of the posts in this thread are from people who are doing the best they can to twist the message and make it like we're not letting anyone talk about anything anymore.

Stop wasting your breath, seriously. If the request for some civility is too much, and the request to debate issues without virulent hatred and ignorant comments directed at each other with the intent to hurt is not making sense to you then please consider that before you post.

As far as freedom of speech goes, you agreed to abide by the T&C when you became a member here. Posting things like those that have been cited above is NOT abiding by the T&C here. This is not new.

No one here is having trouble understanding this, people are simply throwing in foreign concepts to confuse the issue.

We're not talking about someone saying "man up" we're talking about someone saying "those parasite jew bastards should stop this or that" or "those nutcase bomber arabs should stop this or that".

Enough of this garbage already and enough of people who insist on using this language.

We have become as big as we are because we are a place that does NOT let conversation fall to such levels. We've done that over the course of many years and will continue to do so. Attempts at making this into a "you're restricting my freedom of speech" will not change that.

Terribly sorry to those who want drama, but the vast majority of our members want civil discourse and that is what we will provide them with. Period. To those who will not accept that... well... that's not our choice.

reply to post by blupblup
"Usually hate speech against Obama is is either racially fueled or has undertones of racism...as pointed out, subtle racism is still racism.

calling bush a moron is fine i would imagine... now if you called bush a white hon*** dips***, murdering, gay loving, inbred Texan tool...then that is different...and totally unacceptable....think what you like... just don't share it

It is about respect and not bringing race, gender or any type of bigoted slur in to the discussion.

I really fail to see, as others have said, how this is so hard to understand??"


So then their's already a double standard then because I feel all that was stated above is "Hate Speech". Then would it be racism if I were to say obama was an idiot?

dont worry springster im with you all the way!!,im right beside you infact!

i to share a distate for any hate espoused against my fellow man, and i to share a zero tolerance approach to any sources of that hate!.

i think the organisation of large trustworthy networks whos duty it is to protect those who are the victims of any hate is the way forward.

"hate speech" should only be used as a countermeasure/protection to others hate.

I have to agree with sunray06. This is a private website, and as such, any post is subject to censorship based on the owners decision. Hate speech is bound to be different for each individual or group-mind.

Having said that, I see a great deal of leeway given to those who post on this site. I imagine it can be a difficult task to weed out the merely frustrated outburst from the insidious commentary that masks a malevolent agenda. Subtlety can conceal true intent, so I can understand the need to underscore this point.

I look forward to see how this plays out in the various threads.

reply to post by Clearskies


It is possible to state an opinion on a topic without tainting that opinion with subtle or overt hate or degredation.

We can all be critical of the things we are always critical about on this board. We can still hash out conspiracies. We can still discuss religion and politics and aliens and philosophy and controversial topics. We can be opinionated. We can be open-minded. We can think and discuss outside the box. We can be controversial.

We just can't be nasty about it. We can't be hateful or degrading or overtly insulting or describe people or groups of people with inflammatory generalizations.

So then their's already a double standard then because I feel all that was stated above is "Hate Speech". Then would it be racism if I were to say obama was an idiot?

I can't help you I'm afraid... If you don't see the difference between saying somebody, be it bush or obama, is a moron/idiot and bringing RACE into the argument then, i am at a loss????

I honestly don't know what to say?

How can i tell you how it's different... if you don't get it...you don't get it.

and i wondered why we had a problem on here

reply to post by greshnik

Who is your dedicated expert to tell us what "Hate Speech" is?

That would be the staff of the site.

I am sure you did not start this new communist rule to protect Palestinians or Serbs or Christians...you had others in mind.

I am sure you did not read a single word of the post or you would have an idea of what you were talking about. Very cute slight there at the end though.

Well, none of you owners of of this site seems even remotely capable of deciding what is "hate speech", not to even mention a "subtle" one.

That's your opinion. You're welcome to it.

I think that you do not have enough knowledge to do that, and that you are not paying enough lawyers to assist you with that.

Again your opinion, and incidentally we don't need lawyers to enforce the terms and conditions of a private website.

This is all a joke...and you can ban me all you want.

If you really implement this "hate rule", I hope ATS is no more.

I'm very sorry you're not finding your experience here enjoyable. As you have not violated any T&C's there is no reason to ban you.

Here's hoping you come around.

Even as a let and let live kind of guy I still find that I don't post everything that I think on the boards . I disagree with hate speech with every bone in my body. However my blunter opinions , home truths and so on wont ever be posted as it is possible to outlay them in a much more constructive manner . If that fails I find that it is best just not to post anything and move onto another topic .

Cheers xpert11 .

reply to post by skeptic1


It most certainly is about unpopular points of view I post a topic about PEACE and Palestine..and its closed down..ridiculous.
I lurked for a long time before I posted here..and I have made some errors in fact in some of the information I posted...FACT I did the research and checked my quotes and posted the information I found on the thread.
Time to face it..every time you try to engage people in a dialog you run the risk of offending someone..TERMS & CONDITIONS and CLOSING THREADS should be used on those who FLAGRANTLY break the SPIRIT and Intention of the rules as written.
If this website is a reflection of the world at large...or of the people who run the website..either way what does it say.
Springer seems to be happy & Crakeur too so lets just move on and talk about things in a way that makes them happy. Medication Time Medication Time.

Time to face it..every time you try to engage people in a dialog you run the risk of offending someone..TERMS & CONDITIONS and CLOSING THREADS should be used on those who FLAGRANTLY break the SPIRIT and Intention of the rules as written.

My friend, thank you... that is precisely what we mean (the part I bolded).

Thank you.

Originally posted by SUNRAY06
Hate speech is a convenient label for people to use when an unpopular point of view is being espoused.It's interesting to watch what people do when they are given even a modicum of power. We discover how they choose to control a discussion using TERMS & Condiions Civility and decorum...and when those rules no longer control the topics posted or the content of the conversation its HATE SPEECH...
This website is your own personal sandbox..we get that ..you make the rules..
It's very interesting to see how you apply them.
User Generated Ecosytem..not exeactly..its more like something else...
Good Luck
Sincerely
Stan Bernard
Edmonton Alberta Canada

yeah i kinda agree!, i think your a wise person following the right path in life!

reply to post by Djarums


I find your tone insulting. And I say that very politely.

My questions were sincere, and related to the word "subtle" in the OP.

I truly dislike it when some of the Mods around here take an nasty tone when someone has a legitimate question.

If you think the question is beneath you, dont answer it. Let someone else do it.

I know "condescension" isnt hate speech, but neither is calling you on it.

And if you had bothered to read further, you would have seen that the "example" of subtle hate speech is not so clear cut as many of you who claim

"Its obvious, everyone knows, its not confusing."

Well, to some of us, it is. Again, if you cant answer the question without taking an attitude, it would be more professional to let someone else answer it who can.



[edit on 5-2-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

I think it's fairly obvious and clear based on ATS' track record that anyone who's legitimately trying to discuss something in a thoughtful manner isn't going to get run on this, even if their conclusion may be somewhat incendiary, so long as they present their thoughts in a responsible manner. I'd not expect someone who posted a long soliloquy on how the Iranian government hates Israel or about the real financial cost/benefits of illegal immigration to get nicked on this. Obviously, the admins have observed (as we all have) that everytime a thread pops up that can in any way be used to point a finger at Israel, the Muslim world, or, frankly, any other group in the world, we get a handfull of people who come into the thread pointing fingers and saying something like "THE JEWS!", or "THE MUSLIMS!", or "THE CATHOLICS!", etc ad infinitum, like Jerry Seinfeld said "Newman" anytime he spotted the portly mailman who was responsible for releasing the dinosaurs on Jurasic Park.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


Sorry you thought I was talking to you.

I was not.

reply to post by SUNRAY06

It most certainly is about unpopular points of view

No, it isn't. It is about people who spew hate and try to pass it off as truth or do it just to cause trouble....otherwise known as trolling.

I post a topic about PEACE and Palestine..and its closed down..ridiculous.

Then, ask the Mod who closed it WHY!! Follow up on it and figure out why it was closed down.

Time to face it..every time you try to engage people in a dialog you run the risk of offending someone

This thread isn't about being politically correct. This thread is about being hateful for hate's sake.....and/or just to cause trouble (trolling).

TERMS & CONDITIONS and CLOSING THREADS should be used on those who FLAGRANTLY break the SPIRIT and Intention of the rules as written.

Yes, and this T&C was already in place. We agree not to be hateful and insulting when we sign up. This thread is just telling us that the owners and Admin of this site plan to strictly enforce a rule we've all agreed to already.

If this website is a reflection of the world at large...or of the people who run the website..either way what does it say.

It is both. It is a reflection of a myriad of different opinions and points of view from all over the world. It is a reflection of the owners who allow us to express those opinions and those points of view.

And, this world and this site will be much better if the hate and insults and nastiness are replaced by critical thinking, intelligent discourse, and mature ways of expressing differing opinions.

i just read the whole thread and still don.t get it

i am completely aware what "no hate speach" means as well as staying on terms and conditons which isn.t very complicated!

Originally posted by MoonMine

No my friend, you are watching the end of free speech on ATS, because any critical theory can be transformed into hate speech.

i picked this as an example.

why MoonMine and all the others who are complaining an end of free speech, because one of the site owners askes for sticking to the rules, we all agreed to when singing up, do you consider this demand as the end of free speech?
does free speech consists of hate or unpolitiness or insulting or what ever?
is a poilite post not a free post?

i never felt prevented on ATS to say what i wanted to say.
i am glad being in a community where i can express my wildest thoughts.


if someone cant say something polite, and respectfuly it is better not to say anything.

i agree that it is sometimes easier to swear and insult than to think about intelligent and respectful ways to express ones thoughts. but i consider my fellow member being smart enough to handle this challenge. we all can develop by this.

The hating, it seems to me occurs when people have given up on understanding what a race, religion, or other forms of group thinking take. Because they can't change them they are reduced to name calling, disgust, wishing bad on them because they can't see a solution to the extremes. They no longer look for middle ground, balance, and fairness. They no longer see themselves as able to understand so they think that "they" are wrong or evil, and must try to convince others of it as well.

To say such things reveals much about the people who do it. Some of us just don't go there to those threads anymore because we see no usefulness in perpetuating the ignorance. Freedom to "hate speech" is one way to learn how it is not effective, but this is a serious venue for those of us who want to have group conversations and solution seeking with some of the finest minds on the internet.

So really this is of no consequence to me. I do not spread hate here at ATS, I came here for understanding and information sharing. I do have the freedom not to listen to those who speak this way. But for those who find it uncomfortable it may be a lesson in self searching their own hearts for what is right regardless of whether or not it will ever see the light of day.

ATS must parent us when we get out of hand, to protect the interests of those of us who play nice and those who benefit from it.

I will stay here as long as I am able to do that comfortably.

reply to post by skeptic1


It is a reflection of the owners who allow us to express those opinions and those points of view.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply..you can see by the part of your reply that I used here ..what I grabbed on to... Look it's pretty simple..in our heads and hearts we hold our truths of the world and the way we see it..the wisest of us know the map inside of our heads and hearts is not the territory or the ground as it sits. The freedom to engage the world in conversation , to draw in and share our personal thoughts on subjects both wide reaching and deeply personal is a gift.
My dad used to say "give people enough rope and they will hang themselves"
I truly feel the STAFF are the ones that need to check their own biases at the door and let the posters decide what is important and what merits discussion
CLOSING MY THREAD FOR REVIEW BY STAFF is B/S a way of stopping a conversation in progress for PETTY REASONS.(Crakeur) seems to be a highly intelligent administrator so when he closes my thread down for discussion and review...I"D LIKE TO KNOW WHY?
C E N S O R S H I P without just cause is L A M E...You all need to go back to your offices and figure out WHY you run this website...I know WHY I come here...but why do you? YOU PROCLAIM YOURSELVES" the best dam staff " well be that as it may....EVEN A STOPPED CLOCK IS RIGHT TWICE A DAY.

Once again, the board is taking a step in raising it's standards and I applaud you for it. Thank you.

To those who can't figure out what hate speech is, if you're feeling some vitriol against a group of people and someone else is supporting that group, you might just want to be careful how you word your response. Don't write something that even could be interpreted as hate speech. Then you'll be safe. Grouping people by race, gender, nationality, religion, sexual orientation or handicap and then adding an offensive statement or opinion is likely to be skirting the edge. It's probably best to avoid that kind of thing altogether if you're not sure.

If you really need to get a "hate on" go unload to a friend or spouse or go to a board that specializes in hate speech. There are tons. Then come back and post calmly and maturely here.

Just my thoughts on the subject.

This is hysterical. 6 pages on defining hate speech and thinking the site admins and owners are trying to police us? Granted, this is a conspiracy site, but thats just too much.

Any sane person knows when they say something or type something if it is meant to bolster an arguement or to tear someone down without any merit.

We all love this site, its why we are on here. The creators did a wonderful job, then, they picked their mods, essentially the people who will be watching for this hate based rhetoric. Dont you have any faith in them to be able to determine what is truely hateful and what is productive to a debate?

If you truely hate something, then describe why with a point and rational, dont hate just to slam someone for their ideas and views. Really isnt that hard in my eyes.