When should Fertility treatments be denied?

Originally posted by Helig
Call me what you want but I still look at infertility as natures way of saying 'this is not for you' in a much kinder way than having you miscarry. This woman is abusing her womb in a horrible way, humans have never been designed to produce offspring like rabbits and other various species.

It's always struck me as odd that women like this will typically say something like "God intended me to carry 8 babies, therefore I will not reduce," but do not take into account that maybe God did not intend for them to have children and that is why they are infertile.

Originally posted by TheWayISeeIt
And the parents/grandparents filing for bankruptcy before she had all of those embryos implanted and/or took the fertility drugs (there's seems to be conflicting info around that) sets off serious alarm bells to me.

I haven't checked the news about this today, but last I saw, the grandmother was the only person who had claimed that the pregnancy was the result of IVF.

And I seriously question whether any fertility clinic in the U.S. would take a risk like this. To implant 8 embryos in the womb of a 30-something woman who has already borne 6 children in under 8 years is pretty much asking for trouble from everything I've read on pregnancy.

So, my guess is that either the mother is lying and the woman was getting fertility drugs off the internet and became pregnant the old-fashioned way (in which case one wonders who the father is and strongly hopes it's not the grandfather ) Or the IVF was done under the table or in a clinic out of the country – someway in which money counts more than morals and lawsuits aren't an issue.

UPDATE:

The mother of the California woman who gave birth to octuplets earlier this week says her daughter has been obsessed with having kids since she was a teenager.

Angela Suleman also said that her daughter is unmarried, and conceived all 14 of her children through in-vitro fertilization.

While Nadya is in hospital, her mother is caring for her six other children, who are between the ages of two and seven.

However, Angela has warned her daughter that when she arrives home from the hospital, "I'm going to be gone."

Here's the biggest

Angela said her daughter had wanted to start a family when she was a teenager, but could not.

"Instead of becoming a kindergarten teacher or something, she started having them, but not the normal way," she said.

When she became distressed by her daughter's choices, Angela says she consulted a psychologist, who told her to throw her daughter out of the house.

"Maybe she wouldn't have had so many kids then, but she is a grown woman," Angela said. "I feel responsible and I didn't want to throw her out."

Yolanda Garcia, a former caregiver for Nadya's three-year-old autistic son, said Nadya seemed happy to have a large number of children and said she wanted a total of 12 kids.

"She told me that all of her kids were through in vitro, and I said 'Gosh, how can you afford that and go to school at the same time?"' Garcia told the Long Beach Press-Telegram. "And she said it's because she got paid for it."

Garcia was unable to provide details about how Nadya may have been paid to have children.

According to the Press-Telegram report, Nadya Suleman got a degree in child and adolescent development from California State University in Fullerton in 2006. According to a university spokesperson, Suleman was studying for a master's degree in counselling as late as last spring

link to article:
news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca... 1%2foctuplet_mom_090131


*i cannot get sympatico links to work...a little mod help if you please and thank you.

reply to post by AccessDenied


Wow.

You know, five years ago, she probably would just have had a plastic surgery obsession.

The article in my local paper states that the mother may have had an "addiction" to being pregnant. She may have based her self worth on her ability to have children. It also says that all eight of these babies are from the same sperm donor as the previous six. The IVF was done with left over frozen embryos from the first treatment.

Houston Chronicle

reply to post by AccessDenied




I'm not ready to completely let go of my abuse theory, but that does put it in new light.

I don't know quite what to say.

I still don't understand how she could convince a clinic to perform so many IVFs in so little time, or how they were paid for.

This story is just so disturbing in so many ways.

iam thinking in the not so distant future we will see these children taken away and the mother undergoing some type of counseling.
i hope the clinic and doctor involved get seriously slammed over this.
i just hope we don't read a horror story a year from now about her suffering from post partum depression and going off the deep end. especially since her own parents won't help her.

Originally posted by americandingbat
I haven't checked the news about this today, but last I saw, the grandmother was the only person who had claimed that the pregnancy was the result of IVF.

It's undoubtedly the result of IVF. Multiple embryos are implanted because the body will usually shed several. In the case of women under 35 or so, only two are implanted because usually the body will accept one. In the case of women over 35, many are implanted because most of those will be shed.

So... I believe that she lied about her age to someone (to get those 8 implanted)... AND... I believe she has a form of Munchausen's Syndrome: en.wikipedia.org...

And I seriously question whether any fertility clinic in the U.S. would take a risk like this. To implant 8 embryos in the womb of a 30-something woman who has already borne 6 children in under 8 years is pretty much asking for trouble from everything I've read on pregnancy.

I'm wondering if the implanting was done in, say, Mexico. She had worked at a fertility clinic, so she knew all the ways that you could "game" the system. And she lives in California, with easy access to Mexico. A 2007 news article indicates that this is a popular option because treatment can cost as little as $5,000 there:
news.newamericamedia.org...

The US doctors apparently first encountered her when she showed up 3 months pregnant which supports my idea that she didn't get the IVF in the US.

Now... it is a woman's right (although I'm pro-choice) to say "no, I don't want any baby aborted... and yes I know I'm carrying multiples." I support her right to continue the pregnancy.

The grandmother is clearly stressed and angry, and so is the grandfather... so there's potential for abuse and neglect. One of the existing kids is said to be autistic. The grandmother said a psychiatrist recommended that she "throw her daughter out"... but now the grandmother is in an awkward position. If she throws the women and 14 tiny children out of her house, she will be castigated as a monster. She can't ask that the kids be taken from her daughter -- again, she will look like some sort of monster (although they might become wards of the state... imagine the nightmare of foster homes on an already overburdened system.)

So the tension and anger in the house is very large right now. Someone suggested that the mother write a book -- that publishing rights might be the best way for money for the immediate family.

It doesn't sound as though there's much love and support in that family (part of which may be cultural). I know very few would agree with this, but I do wish the state would resolve some of the problems by taking the octuplets away from her and probably some of the other kids. It would stress and depress the mother considerably but would relieve some of the potential problems for the grandmother and grandfather and might give a better outcome to the kids themselves.

Originally posted by AccessDenied
iam thinking in the not so distant future we will see these children taken away and the mother undergoing some type of counseling.
i hope the clinic and doctor involved get seriously slammed over this.
i just hope we don't read a horror story a year from now about her suffering from post partum depression and going off the deep end. especially since her own parents won't help her.

We had the same thought at the same time -- except I believe that the clinic may have been in Mexico. IVF here in the US costs a huge amount of money ($20k or so), and the whole family would have had to agree that she get these treatments...because she sure didn't have $20k to toss around.

In any case, this may cause several young women to consider the same thing. It is also causing a review of standards in the medical community.

Originally posted by Byrd

Originally posted by americandingbat
I haven't checked the news about this today, but last I saw, the grandmother was the only person who had claimed that the pregnancy was the result of IVF.

It's undoubtedly the result of IVF. Multiple embryos are implanted because the body will usually shed several. In the case of women under 35 or so, only two are implanted because usually the body will accept one. In the case of women over 35, many are implanted because most of those will be shed.

From what I had read, though, it was also possible for it to be the result of years of fertility drugs and regular sexual intercourse. I guess the grandmother has said that these were the "leftover" frozen embryos from her previous IVFs, and that fewer than 8 were implanted – I don't think we have any word yet on whether some of the 8 are identical. So I'm leaning toward under-the-table or out-of-country IVF as most likely too.

So... I believe that she lied about her age to someone (to get those 8 implanted)... AND... I believe she has a form of Munchausen's Syndrome: en.wikipedia.org...

Although depending on how reputable the doctor/clinic doing the implantation is, maybe she didn't even need to lie?

And I totally agree on the Munchausen's Syndrome. But surely that would be a legitimate ethical reason for a doctor to refuse to perform IVF treatment? I understand that it's not their right to determine how many kids a woman should have, but in the case of a mental illness that is behind the desire to keep producing kids, wouldn't there be an ethical duty not to perform the IVF?

I'm wondering if the implanting was done in, say, Mexico. She had worked at a fertility clinic, so she knew all the ways that you could "game" the system. And she lives in California, with easy access to Mexico.

That seems like a likely scenario. I'm also still wondering about the family's connections to Iraq; whether either she could have had this done somewhere in the Arab world, or by a doctor in the LA area Arab community who might be willing to do it under the table.

The US doctors apparently first encountered her when she showed up 3 months pregnant which supports my idea that she didn't get the IVF in the US.

Yup.

Now... it is a woman's right (although I'm pro-choice) to say "no, I don't want any baby aborted... and yes I know I'm carrying multiples." I support her right to continue the pregnancy.

I agree. My problem with the story is why the pregnancy was allowed to happen in the first place. She didn't just get herself knocked up, and if these were in fact the frozen embryos from previous IVFs then the doctor responsible must have known her history. And why not use them for some of the earlier IVFs? How many embryos are generally produced in one round of IVF anyway?

It doesn't sound as though there's much love and support in that family (part of which may be cultural). I know very few would agree with this, but I do wish the state would resolve some of the problems by taking the octuplets away from her and probably some of the other kids. It would stress and depress the mother considerably but would relieve some of the potential problems for the grandmother and grandfather and might give a better outcome to the kids themselves.

Count me in as one who agrees. I know that the foster system is totally overrun and I've heard an awful lot of horror stories. But life as one of 14, especially since it's likely that some of these children will have special needs themselves since they were so premature, in a financially struggling (maybe, unclear about that) household, with a resentful grandmother and an emotionally unwell mother, and no male adult while the grandfather's off in Iraq trying to support them?

I just don't see it turning out well

\... humans have never been designed to produce offspring like rabbits and other various species. \

absolutely!

this is the example of the state of medicine in the country.
the doctors do anything one wants if paid... multiplying pathology in the population...
they dont care about anything; this number exceeds the risk limit. they know it. these kids will be not normal... and yes, they will be taken away since mom wont be able to look after them and they will need special care...

1. There is no proof that an ethical US clinic was involved. In fact, the entirety of the ASRM and SART membership have condemned whoever did this as being guilty of malpractice.

2. No doctor can implant an embryo. They can TRANSFER embryos in hopes of implantation occurring.

3. Never trust anyone but a doctor to know the difference between an IUI, IVF, and fertility drugs. (I'm an IVF vet and I know that my family wouldn't have a clue about treatments even though they are educated.)

4. The infertility community is up in arms about the irresponsibility of this woman. There are clear standards of practice that have been violated. No one supports her decisions.

This woman should not be a person to use for anything but a CPS investigation and possibly an investigation in who, exactly, is allowed to work in psychiatric work. There is every indication that she is mentally unstable.

As a final word, no regulations in fertility treatments until there is not automatic custody granted to someone just because they gave birth to a baby. Most - 99% - of CPS cases are from "natural" born children. You don't make laws for the 0.0001%. So, please keep your micromanagement out of medicine.

When the parents are UGLY

not a one-liner.