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The Death of James V. Forrestal: Suicide or did he become one of the first victims of the cover-up?

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posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 08:52 AM
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Originally posted by SailorinAZ
Do you remember Admiral Boorda who allegedly committed suicide in 1996 by shooting himself twice in the chest. He was the Chief of Naval Operations.

Some say he was involved in a plan to arrest President Clinton.


Shotting yourself in the chest is a viable means of suicide? I thought a bullet through the head would be more effective but seriously things like that would just prove they were killed because of some coverup.


[edit on 06/21/2008 by diamount]




posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 09:08 AM
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reply to post by diamount
 


Yea and two times.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by PhyberDragon
In Photo Exhibit 2E: www.dcdave.com...
Where is all the glass?
Was it broken over his head by the guard?

Good find.


The first person that entered his room after he had died was nurse Turner and she had the following to say.


We both went into his room and he wasn't there and we noticed the broken glass on the bed and looked down and noticed the razor blade and told him he was missing and she said it was one forty-eight.


Maybe the glass on the bed accounts for the missing pieces. And glass on the bed could indicate that Forrestal was hit with something made of glass when still in his bed. Don't forget the room was cleaned before the crime scene photographers were allowed access to the room to do their work.


The Guard is a liar.

That's my guess also. There was always only one guard on watch from the moment Forrestal was admitted. Strange that protocol required two guards and only one was assigned in Forrestal's case.

Thanks for the explanation on the protocols.



[edit on 29/1/09 by Fastwalker81]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 09:21 AM
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reply to post by diamount
 


I don't think they believe we are dumb, I think they know they can intimidate us and make us fearful to talk. If they could do this to someone like Forestall and get away with it, how many other mysterious deaths are we not aware of?



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 09:27 AM
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Amazing catch!

I remember hearing william cooper mention forrestal, and there isnt a doubt in my mind that both forrestal and willim cooper were murdered in order to protect very highly classified documents secret. It is also intresting to note that the same ammount of media secrecy and slander took place after coopers death, and was a mock repeat of phillip schnieder.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 10:07 AM
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There is also something else which I think need to be added in this thread. According to Branton (who wrote Dulce Book):


two CIA agents entered the hospital room, tied a bedsheet around Forrestal's neck and to a light fixture, and threw him out the window to hang. The bedsheet[s] broke and he fell to his death, screaming on his way down according to some witnesses "We're being invaded!" - Branton


The same thing I've read somewhere else (can't recall where). It it's true then this ties in with the general idea that Forrestal got killed for the sensitive information he wanted to go public.

Just my two cents...



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 10:49 AM
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After we nuked Japan, that was the point when we started to see a lot of UFO's.
Or at least that's when they became really interested in us.

I think the gov. made the connection between the first nukes and UFO's/Aliens.
This is just speculation but I think we human's inadvertently sent a "beacon" out into the universe (via the bomb) that caught the attention of Aliens.

After the bomb, we had Roswell, etc. This was all during Truman's term. After the bomb, a lot of weird things started happening, including the subject of this thread.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 11:02 AM
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Forrestal was a VIP. The bigger and brighter the VIP is, the larger the shadow of press that follows behind them. I think what is more probable is that Dr. Raines, being his primary doctor, was following CYA protocol just in case Forrestal's prognosis worsened quickly, especially after noting his over reaction to his medications. In other words, it's better to err on the side of caution. Still, this doesn't rule out murder, but using the accounts of Dr. Raines, et al, to support this conspiracy is a weak premise at best.

BTW, this thread IS a breath of investigative fresh air! Good job on the hunt, and keep up the good work!



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 11:05 AM
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Lets not forget that Forrestal was Secretary of the Navy and ordered the Antarctic exploration that became known as "Operation High Jump". This topic has not been discussed in quite some time. The entire mission is still shrouded in controversy.

Multiple threads on the subject.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

www.abovetopsecret.com...



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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Great post but as you know sometimes you just can't see the Forrestal through the trees.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 11:45 AM
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This is a very interesting thread


I do not believe I had ever heard of the Forrestal case before, but I am somewhat familiar with MJ-12.

I will admit that you have to be pretty ignorant to go through all of this information and say that the man killed himself.

Thanks for the good read, and for continuing this wave of interesting posts here lately at ATS!



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 12:17 PM
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reply to post by ziggystar60
 



First off, to the OP, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! For a breath of much needed fresh air on this site. Although I have seen many posts on Forrestal on this site I find that this is definitely one of the best ones.

It always amazes me how people will buy the 'he was depressed and suicidal' or 'it was a lone gunman' spiel. Over and over the public buys the garbage that the corrupt within the government force feed them.

Olsen is a GREAT example. Although he wasn't working on anything to do with ETs he was in deep within the CIA murdering machine. He did a LOT of work on the concept of a Manchurian Candidate. Of course the CIA claims that he offed himself by jumping from a window. It's just amazing that it came a little after he decided that he didn't really like what he was seeing done to the 'volunteers' they were doing the 'brainwashing' tests on. People were dying left and right all so the CIA could 'progress'. How the heck is that progress?

Anyway, they claim that the program was a failure. That it was not possible to make anyone do what they don't want to. Well, let me tell you this much. If I were a secret police (which is what they are) and I found a way to brainwash people, I wouldn't tell ANYONE.

Oh yeah, maybe we have seen a Manchurian Candidate perform in public already. Bobby Kennedy anyone?

Great topic there as well as the OP.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 12:22 PM
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Originally posted by Nicolas Flamel
reply to post by diamount
 


I don't think they believe we are dumb, I think they know they can intimidate us and make us fearful to talk. If they could do this to someone like Forestall and get away with it, how many other mysterious deaths are we not aware of?


I saw a report about the unusually high number of serious UFO researchers that died accidental and suicides. Researchers during the 60s and 70's if memory serves.

I now personally of a guy that saw a UFO, been in and out of the nut house and on drugs for years. I know he saw one becouse myself and many others saw the same craft.

I know of another man that dated the daughter of an Air Force officer, high ranking, from Wright Patterson. He used to say very seriously "they are real folks". He told many this but would not go into detail to protect those who gave him the info. He died after being slammed into during an auto accident. Auto accidents sound innocent enough until you discover the clever assassination techniques employing autos. Not to mention heart attack drugs that can be introduced into the victim by several methods.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 12:33 PM
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Excellently researched thread


Just to add a little more detail about W. Stuart Symington...


On Sept. 18, 1947, the Office of the Secretary of the Air Force was officially activated and Symington took the oath of office. As he had done when he was assistant secretary of war for air, Symington continued to represent the Air Force in Congress. He had a knack for keeping in touch with almost every facet of his operation, while avoiding becoming bogged down in details. Symington had the utmost respect for his chiefs of staff, Generals Spaatz and Hoyt S. Vandenberg, and their relationships solidified during his tenure.

On several occasions, Secretary of Defense James Forrestal was so much at odds with the air secretary that he contemplated asking for Symington's resignation.
Source

Quite the complicated man. He opposed McArthy and the Commie Trials and stood in support of several accused. Conversely, he damaged his chances of a Presidency by refusing to address segregated audiences.

The main controversy involved his being investigated over spending money on the failed B-56s

Symington's final year in office was dominated by the B-36 controversy, an issue that shook the new Air Force organization to its roots. Not only on the line were the secretary's integrity and career and the reputation of prominent Air Force generals, but the future roles and missions of the Air Force as well. Detractors questioned the B-36's capacity to perform its mission at the range, speed, and altitude the Air Force claimed. Attacks against the aircraft culminated on May 26, 1949, when Rep. James E. Van Zandt told Congress that he demanded answers to specific questions about the B-36, which were based on statements he had read in an anonymous document. In January 1950 the final report of the House Investigative Committee declared the Air Force's B-36 procurement record clean and stated that there was not a "scintilla" of evidence to support the charges, reports, rumors and innuendoes, alleging irregularities or improprieties in the procurement process. The committee wanted it made known that Symington, the leaders of the Air Force, and Secretary of Defense Johnson had survived the inquiry with "unblemished, impeccable reputations."


Whitewash? Who knows. I was hoping to find some indication of the type of character he was. His ethics or morals. Guess I was on a hiding to nothing...



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 12:40 PM
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Dont know if it means anything really but he was actually at the battle for Iwo Jima, on the ground. Witnessed the flag raising.



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 12:59 PM
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reply to post by Logarock
 


He was in one of the navy ships ashore. When the marines were raising the flag on top of mount suribachi, he said something like " That would mean marines for the next 500 years" You can search the net on the details of actual event and what actual words he said. It's just like he saw the future 500 years ahead huh



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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One must remember that he was involved more than these ET stuff. His stance on certain issues when he was the secretary of defense probably earned him some enemies.


Forrestal continued to advocate for complete racial integration of the services as Secretary of Defense, a policy that was eventually implemented in 1949.



During private cabinet meetings with President Truman in 1946 and 1947, Forrestal had argued against partition of Palestine on the grounds it would infuriate Arab countries who supplied oil needed for the U.S. economy and national defense. Instead, Forrestal favored a federalization plan for Palestine. Outside the White House, response to Truman's continued silence on the issue was immediate. President Truman received threats to cut off campaign contributions from wealthy donors, as well as hate mail, including a letter accusing him of "preferring fascist and Arab elements to the democracy-loving Jewish people of Palestine. Appalled by the intensity and implied threats over the partition question, Forrestal appealed to Truman in two separate cabinet meetings not to base his decision on partition, whatever the outcome, on the basis of political pressure.



Pearson told his own protege, Jack Anderson that he believed Forrestal was "the most dangerous man in America" and claimed that if he was not removed from office, he would "cause another world war".



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Flux8
but using the accounts of Dr. Raines, et al, to support this conspiracy is a weak premise at best.

To the contrary there appear to be many problems with the testimony and integrity of Dr. Raines. The accounts of Dr. Raines I listed were noted under oath so I would presume one would give the most accurate account possible.

He contradicts himself under oath many times and this is not the worst problem. He directly contradicts the testimony of his second in command, Dr. Smith, who also was highly involved in the case. Not to mention the other doctors who were assigned to Forrestal.

Dr. Smith states under oath that Forrestal denied explicitly that he would even think of taking his own life. This can be clearly seen in the quotes I provided in my OP. I find it odd that four doctors don't see any direct signs of suicidal behaviour but one paints the picture of a highly suicidal person that can off himself at any time. I would almost say it appears comical if you read the whole report. Not to mention his brother's impression who saw Forrestal four times during his stay at Bethesda.

The integrity of Dr. Raines is also questionable. His later assistant stated years later that Dr. Raines told him that he had orders from the White House to place Forrestal on the 16th floor of the hospital. This is confirmed by another testimony from soneone within the White House itself so we can safely assume that this was indeed the case. It would seem irresponsible for Dr. Raines to place a highly suicidal patient, by his own words, in the tower because he was ordered to do so, and then forgets to mention this under oath. He was supposed to do what's best for his patient it would seem.

There are so many other things about this case that do not add up or are odd to say the least. Things that don't have anything to do with Dr. Raines. In my opinion there are good reasons to suspect James Forrestal did not kill himself.


BTW, this thread IS a breath of investigative fresh air! Good job on the hunt, and keep up the good work!

Thanks.


I will post other inconsistencies in the case later. I have to copy almost all the testimony parts manually from the Willcutts report so this takes some time.




[edit on 29/1/09 by Fastwalker81]



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 03:17 PM
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I don't know about the ashtray aspect. If Forestal was a career NAVY man, odds are, he smoked Cigars often, it was clearly a smoking room. Odd, since suicidals are not allowed access to lighters and smoking materials. They must be logged and contained in a controlled point. Further, they are brought out at designated times and in designated areas and supervisimg staff will light all smoking materials for the patients, even the non- suicidal ones. I know from personal patient experience. That ashtray would not have been allowed in his room. Bethesda is a top of the line hospital manned by national professionals who train their peers.
Even if no such rules were in place at the time, which is suspect to me, as the access to fire making products is a pretty universal rule, the ashtray itself holds some clues.
If you look at the photo's and further zoom in your explorer window, you can see that, although there are no visible butts or ashes, there are dark black smudges along the inner bowl, proof that it has been used, and by the size of the smudge, a wide cigar ,rather than a narrow cigarette, appears to be the culprit. So, it is not new, it is used. Now, assuming he broke it in peices, why was the residual ash within the bowl not scattered or smeared on the carpet or bedspread? You can see the ashes nowhere. Any smoker knows that ashtrays are hard to clean. The buildup and clinging dry ash would still rain out of an empty ashtray if you tipped it upside down or jostled it around. Smoking is a nasty business. Yet, the room is spotless. They could not have cleaned it so well. Today, maybe, then, no way. Where are the cleaner marks- as they would still be wet and the carpet fabric would have that scrubbed look to it. Being in the NAVY I have seen and stepped on that type of carpet before. I have even had to clean a few. There is no vaccuum trails or cleaner marks, was the glass itself empty?
And, those ashtrays are single solid peice constructions, pre fab welded at the joints. I have used several similiar ones, and, my brother has owned several and owns one now. Assuming that the old man had it in him to break it. Only the top is removable for emptying, but, it is so filthy inside that my above argument holds. So, that surely wasn't the peice removed and placed on the bed, or, the bed spread is 100% guaranteed a new one and not Forrestal's. As to the rest of the ashtray, if he broke it in several pieces, how did they get it on site welded back together for the photo? Maybe, it's a replacement.
As to it's location, being that it is there, since it would have been removed if Forrestal and his guests or doctor's did not smoke in the room. Assuming it was supposed to be there in the first place-- despite fire hazard and safety protocals. Why is it near the window? It would have been strategically positioned near the bed and/ or assembled chairs. No visitor, or, Forrestal himself is going to cross the room every time the need to ash, they are going to have it near them and readily available. They are not going to carry it back and forth. Nor are they going to stand near an open window just so they can blow the smoke out of it. No, smoker's, like all things in nature, are lazy and will alaways seek the path of least resistance. The fact that the ashtray which was supposedly broken is now assembled and that it is located by the window instead of near the bed and chairs are two more absolute guaranteed lies.

As for the testimony of Corpman Price at: www.dcdave.com...
is a lie as well. There were not 3 corpsman who rotate out on the watch. The Watchstander rotation is pulled from all enlisted assigned to the Command, and as to who gets what watch, there is no set pattern. When you assign a watch you don't allow less than 2 watchstanders for each thing guarded, you don't let the same 2 watchstanders stand the same continual watch, much less, at the same time, you don't tell them in advance of the watch, more than a week, what watch they will be standing, neither the station, the time, nor the watchstanders are allowed to be consistant. It is a built in security feature of watchstanding to keep conspiracy's between watchstanders and familiiarity which can develop between static watches and watchstanders to a minimum. The theory being that it is harder to use your position for ill intents if you are always being shuffled around and never guaranteed to be standing watch with one who will be complicit in your attempts. You can't convince 'em all, so, you risk being exposed if you try to convince all watchstanders to comply with your ill intent. It's tradition, it goes back as far as Sun Tzu's Art of War, if not further. Nope, the guards are lying. No doubt about it. The Corpsman price admission is probably an alibi for the young doctor who ripped his sleeves. His doting on Forrestal almost homosexually as well as the young doctor's during an anti- gay era, is highly suspect behavior. No. If there really was a young doctor, I'd be less concerned with Price, and more interested in why that doctor's sleeves were really ripped.
And Menninger is an interesting aspect. As I don't know his first name, I'll ass ume it is the Army Psychiatrist, Dr. William Menninger, chief of Army neuropsychiatry, if that is so I would reconsider the "drugged" out aspect of Forrestal after he got out of the car, his dazed withdrawn look, and his dilated pupils, as well as his supposed art (of course, why would he have been left with a pen or pencil either, and, how did the corpsman know what he was writing? Did he discuss it with him, or did the guard rudely look over his shoulder, and old NAVY dog like Forrestal would have been a less than blunt irate about that, I would think). I would consider these things, then consider an Annual Meeting which was held by the time of his death. A meeting his 5 attending Psychiatrists would have been well aware of, if not attended.

The meeting then proceeded to a discussion of Dr. William C. Menninger's ...... hypnotic studies on the predominantly individual nature of color symbolism. ..... as arising in the form of hallucinatory images and ideas of drive objects, ...

(You may have to join to read it) at:
www.pep-web.org...
or, find similiar pages at:
www.google.com...:www.pep-web.org/document.php%3Fid%3Dbap.005c.0031a



posted on Jan, 29 2009 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by dariousg
First off, to the OP, THANK YOU VERY MUCH! For a breath of much needed fresh air on this site. Although I have seen many posts on Forrestal on this site I find that this is definitely one of the best ones.




Olsen is a GREAT example. Although he wasn't working on anything to do with ETs he was in deep within the CIA murdering machine. He did a LOT of work on the concept of a Manchurian Candidate. Of course the CIA claims that he offed himself by jumping from a window. It's just amazing that it came a little after he decided that he didn't really like what he was seeing done to the 'volunteers' they were doing the 'brainwashing' tests on. People were dying left and right all so the CIA could 'progress'. How the heck is that progress?

The Olson case is indeed a great example. He was dosed with '___' without his knowledge, courtesy of the CIA, and "fell" through his tenth-floor hotel window. He suffered blunt force trauma to the head before falling, but contrarily had no visible laceration indicating that he fell through a broken window.


But of course he also decided to kill himself and just broke his hotel window, stood in the opening and hit himself in the head with a blunt object really hard and then fell to his death below. Just like James Forrestal apparently tied a bathrobe sash tightly around his neck and then jumped out of the 16th floor window.


Anyway, they claim that the program was a failure. That it was not possible to make anyone do what they don't want to. Well, let me tell you this much. If I were a secret police (which is what they are) and I found a way to brainwash people, I wouldn't tell ANYONE.


Better yet I would also have any unwanted "security risks" commit suicide at my command to avoid embarrassing situations like the Olsen case.



[edit on 29/1/09 by Fastwalker81]




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