The Death of James V. Forrestal: Suicide or did he become one of the first victims of the cover-up?

reply to post by Fastwalker81

1949? I think that was too early in the game for things to get sinister, if it all ties back to roswell 1947. I think forrestal may have been freaked out by what he experienced. Maybe he saw a live ET and it unnaturally communicated with him, perhaps deliberately messing with his mind even after its death.

Drove the man insane, maybe he thought the ET ghost was haunting him or that ET homebase somehow was now communinicating with him, threatening him. He just may have killed himself and the Truman administration gave him enough rope to hang himself so that an unbalanced forrestal would not compromise highly sensitive new information about the ET situation.

Great post. Thank you for doing the research.

Several years ago, I was a little obsessed with the Roswell incident and did quite a bit of research on the topic. Forrestal's death has always bothered me. I never believed it was a suicide.

The movie "Roswell" was on televison the other night, so the Forrestal mystery has been on my mind since then. Your post has reaffirmed my belief that it was murder not suicide.

I was already familiar with the JV Forrestal case after reading about it many years back. The evidence seems to point to foul play involved in this case. Thank you for a great thread. Great information for those not familiar with the case or if you need a refresher.

S&F

reply to post by Fastwalker81



The Richard Dolan book is an excellent investigative piece, one of the best I've read.
As far as UFOs go, Jacques Vallee is the best of all. Donald Keyhoe os close. These are old books, Vallee's from 1962, burt classic if you want to know what is pretty settled about UFOs.

As far as conspiracies and coverups go, the Disinformation Press has published many fine examples.www.disinfo.com...
The best compilations of disinformation and MSM lies, and incorrect "common knowledge" have been edited by Russ Kick and printed by Disinfo.com.

The best of them are:
"50 Things You're Not Supposed to Know" (and a 2nd ed., '50 More Things...")
"You Are Being Lied To"
"Abuse Your Illusions"
and
"Everything You Know Is Wrong."

These cover almost every possible psi or conspiracy topic you can think of; and there are many more from them by other editors and authors.

Again, it's great to see thoughtful work on controversial topic here for a change.

I look forward to seeing more of your threads/posts.

Deny ignorance.

jw

Some questions I have about the murder scene...

There's what looks like splinters of wood or something mixed with the glass.... And I read on.. that glass cannot be from an ashtray. a) why would an ashtray be in the room of a suicidal person? b) has anyone ever SEEN an ashtray from that area? Heavy heavy glass. You'd have to beat it with a hammer to break it, and REALLY pulverize it to get it into pieces that thin and that small. And that makes noise- especially in a quiet place like a hospital. I also saw the ashtray in the pic- and the glass on the floor doesn't match what that ashtray could splinter into. And like I said- there's what looks like wood and some other stuff mixed in, Where's the ashes, a cig butt? Why is the glass square? Last time I saw a round ashtray broken, the splinters were long and triangular. Honestly, that looks more like auto safety glass than regular glass. In fact.... the piece up towards the top has a 'bubble' in it. my car's window glass has a similar thing going on- it's the laminate coming loose from the glass.

Also- if this guy was such a 'disgrace' and then killed himself- why was an aircraft carrier named after him.....? I always thought that honor went to people who distinguished themselves in their service to the country... I am not bringing his actual service and everything- what the 'official' spin was- why, if he was so awful.... AND fired.....

great post it's one the best posts that I've read here in ats in quite a while. btw this is my first time hearing about majestic 12 documents and was wondering where they came from and who leaked it out to the general public.

BTW- I did a check of the handwriting of the poem and the sigs AND the memo- and the poem was written by someone else. I took the memo and had to stick the transcript onto my computer and invert the thing so it's black letters on white paper- the other was giving me a headache. I looked at small words- 'a', 'and' it', ect. 'Of' is a biggie. Both versions are as different as a cat in a roomful of apples. Another teller is the slant of the handwriting. The poem slants to the right, the memo to the left/ straight up. I don't know about anyone else- but it took a supreme effort for me to slant my own handwriting opposite of how I usually write. And it was well nigh unreadable. I wish I had a sample of left handed writing, because I THINK the poem was written by someone left handed. I used to know know someone who's left handed... and for the life of me, I think that's how their writing slanted.


If anyone wants me to play Armchair Sherlock, I'll make some examples of this and put them in a post.....

Edited because I can't tell the diff between a 'thread' and a 'post'.


[edit on 29-1-2009 by wylekat]

Talk about beating a dead horse. Yeah, were gonna figure this out now and solve the mystery like so many before us did. Geez.

There's nothing wrong with a little armchair sleuthing how badly the PTB bollixed up his 'suicide'. To be honest... it doesn't take a whiz to point out glaring errors in the investigation. The hard part would be convincing anyone mainstream of anything.

Or critics who show up just to say they don't care.

In Photo Exhibit 2E: www.dcdave.com...
Where is all the glass? The circumference of the concave piece that is largest,
not the rectangular piece, show's a larger circumference than there are pieces
to account for. What's more, the peices are not arranged naturally. The concave
peice is clearly from the rim portion, yet the rectangular peice is not in a natural
position, if it had been dropped or smashed, it appears to have been placed, or,
at least, re- placed. and, the rectangular glass body piece is not as rounded as
the rim piece, further indicating a larger glass for which there are not enough pieces

In Photo Exhibit 2F: .www.dcdave.com...
You can see in the far cabinet to the left a potential source of the glass. Why are there
no watermarks or stains on the carpet in Photo Exhibit 2E. Was it broken over his head
by the guard?

I've been to in an Asylum. And in the NAVY, and the guard would have had
a second roving watch with him. What's more there would have been a night staff on the
floor. There would have been an observation desk situated advantageously to view the rooms
on the hall, and would by law, be required to be manned by staff at all times, where was the
Certified Licensed Staff Member? Or, being the NAVY- Marine Bethedsda, which works
on a buddy oversight system, even then, where are the Certified Licensed Staff Members?
They are required, and the only ones authorized, to do the room- checks, not the Guards.
Especially, for such a high profile patient.
The Guard was lying. All the Guards do is room fire and safety checks. They don't do the
legally required patient checks assigned to professional. It is not a collateral duty.
What's more, the Guard, if he is to leave sight of the hallway or area they are guarding,
cannot leave their post. That would be dereliction of duty and is a Court Martial offense.
He, as Primary watchstander, is required to send the secondary watchman, the "roving"
watch for out of post observations. The primary watch, would not leave his access point
watchstation post. Even, if there was only one hall, there must be two guards at all times.
Never in the history of guarding, even in a lowly Barracks, to a well Guarded Officer's Office
has there ever been just one Guard. It defies the watchstanding Safety and Security role.
You never let one man guard anything, you put not less than two guards, on rotation, so,
you never have the same guards working together for too long. Everyone has to rotate out
to a watch station post in the military as part of the standard duty day tasks. Special Military
Units are assigned to Certain Commands, But, Never On Solo duty. Where was the Roving
Watch? And why did he leave his control point access watch by the floor's main entranceway
to do room checks? And, if the Guard was the roving watch, where was the main access point
watch? And why guess at the time, when protocal requires precise log entries into the Access
Point Control Log's Watchman's Log? The Guard is a liar.

An interesting thread stared and flagged.I have always been interested in the death of Forrestal it is a highly suspicious case I think he was right when he told his friend that they were out to get him,I feel he realized that the MJ-12 group was and perhaps willing to silence those who know far too much.

Here's a pageful, but, here goes:
Link's:
www.americanheritage.com...
www.wwjmeat.com...
www.trumanlibrary.org...

The Thirty-Sixth President • 1963-1969
Lyndon Baines Johnson
“So Close To Greatness”
at: www.americanheritage.com...


Biographical Facts
Birth: Near Stonewell, Texas, August 27, 1908
Ancestry: English
Father: Samuel Ealy Johnson, Jr.
Birth: Buda, Texas, October 11, 1877
Death: Austin, Texas, October 11, 1937
Occupations: State Representative; Publisher; Landowner
Mother: Rebekah Baines Johnson
Birth: McKinney, Texas, June 26, 1881
Death: Austin, Texas, September 12, 1958
Brother: Sam Houston Johnson (1914-1978)
Sisters: Rebekah Luruth Johnson (1910-1978); Josefa Hermine Johnson (1912-1961); Lucia Huffman Johnson (1916-1997)
Marriage: San Antonio, Texas, November 17, 1934
Wife: Claudia Alta "Lady Bird" Taylor Johnson
Birth: Karnack, Texas, December 22, 1912
Children: Lynda Bird Johnson (1944-); Luci Baines Johnson (1947-)
Religious Affiliation: Disciples of Christ
Education: Johnson City High School; Southwest Texas State Teachers College (B.S., 1930); attended Georgetown University Law School
Occupation Before Presidency: Teacher
Military Service: Lt. comdr., comdr., United States Naval Reserve (active duty 1941-1942)
Prepresidential Offices: National Youth Administration director in Texas; United States Congressman; United States Senator; United States Vice President
Inauguration Age: 55
Occupation After Presidency: Retired
Death: Stonewall, Texas, January 22, 1973
Place of Burial: LBJ Ranch, Stonewall, Texas

Since 1946, WW Johnson Meat Company has been trusted to produce premium quality ground beef products that are found at your favorite local restaurants.

In addition to providing the best tasting product, we are committed to providing the safest product. We consistently meet and exceed all government-supervised programs. Our internal Process Control Plans result in the SAFEST, FRESHEST and BEST TASTING ground beef.

Whether it is serving in the NAVY under Forrestal; through his Term in Congress, and then in the Senate during Forrestal's death, and the death of his predecessor Frank Knox whereby he helped begin the Vietnam war and securing his family's Johnson Beef Co. Secure the pre- dominant Beef supply role to US Troops and Government overall.

Or, JFK being assasinated for wanting to end Vietnam, and Johnson stepping up as Vice President to President and escalating the War, thus escalating his families meat contracts, as Johnson Beef Co. is and has been the major supplier of US Government and, especially, military Beef.

Or, his Congressional and Vice Presidential role overseeing the Dept. of Energy's Nuclear Program.

We always see Johnson there.

I'd look at his families Beef sales before and after May 22nd, 1949 on through to the Vietnam War.

Especially, in Forrestal's case where Forrestal proved highly effective at mobilizing domestic industrial production for the war effort. and following the death of his immediate supervisor Frank Knox, conveniently, from a heart attack.

What was Knox's connection with these men?

Forrestal led the Navy through the closing year of the war and the painful early years of demobilization that followed. Maybe, there was mobilization going on to. Maybe, mobilization that Knox would not have a part in. Maybe. Maybe not.

So, Forrestal not only arranged the Johnson Beef Co.'s industrial war time Contract's, but, through yet another convenient death during Johnson's term in Government, Forrestal was able to control the de- contracting as well.

I'd look at all Johnson B.C. military and government contracts and sales during those times, as well.

Forrestal was named as the nation's first Secretary of Defense in 1947 by President Harry S. Truman. Why? Why was the Office really created, beyond it's public facade?

That and in their professional roles, they would have been well aware of something, if not Beef Contracts, or, Beef contracts alone, that would have led Forrestal to argue with, Sidney Souers (a former DCI, NSC executive secretary, and alleged MJ-12 member); Secretary of Defense, after Forrestal, Louis Johnson; President Truman, and Congressman, soon to be Senator, Vice- President, President, Lyndon Johnson, and Menninger about:

Maybe, President Truman's decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki (which provoked the Soviet decision to build nuclear weapons as rapidly as possible.) and the United States building hydrogen bombs, before officially releasing doing so, and maybe the Neutrino bomb as well.

BTW: The fallout created by the subsequent frenzy of atmospheric testing is projected to cause between 100,000 and half-a-million cancer fatalities by the end of the next century. And the radiation doses will go on long after that because some radionuclides, such as plutonium-239 and carbon-14, have half-lives lasting thousands of years.

Maybe, the source of evidence can be found in any of the following, or more, sources from Truman's DeClassified Library about those bomb projects, mobilizations, budgets, contracts, etc. at :
www.trumanlibrary.org...

Congress -- Messages to
Memorandum from the Secretary of Defense to the President, undated
"Suggested Language for Insertion in the President's Message," with attachment, undated
Budget-Table XIX-Summary of 1954 Budget Recommendations-Mutual Security Program
"Key Issues Between BOB and DMS on Mutual Security Program," undated
Defense, Secretary of-Reports
"Report of the Secretary of Defense's Ad Hoc Committee on Biological Warfare," July 11, 1949
Army, Secretary of the
"British and Turkish Views on International Situation" by William H. Draper, Jr., undated
War, Secretary of
[James Webb, Another High ranking NAVY Officer] Memorandum from James Webb to the President on military expenditures, undated
Truman-Attlee Talks, December 1950-Briefing Book
"Overall Statement of Problem Involved," undated
"Soviet Objectives in the Current Situation," undated
"Soviet Intentions in the Current Situation," undated
"Use of Atomic Bomb," undated
"Soviet Proposal for a Meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers," undated
Miscellaneous Data
Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the President and Others, November 17, 1948
"Catalog of Commitments Involving the Use or Possible Use of United States Armed Forces," September 1, 1948

Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the Chairman of the National Security Resources Board, November 25, 1949
Reports-To NSC for Information
Memorandum from Executive Secretary Sidney Souers to the NSC regarding Shanghai, January 13, 1949, with attachment
Memorandum from Executive Secretary Sidney Souers to the NSC regarding Japan, February 11, 1949, with attachments
Reports-To NSC for Information (Progress Reports)
NSC Progress Report by the Acting Secretary of State on NSC 11/3, "U.S. Armed Forces at Tsingtao," June 8, 1949
NSC Progress Report by the Department of State on the position of the United States with respect to Korea, August 18, 1949
NSC Progress Report by the Acting Chairman of the National Security Resources Board on NSC Action 126, concerning mobilization planning for foreign economic measures, October 31, 1949
Numerical List of NSC Meetings
NSC 26-26/5
1 Meeting 4-December 17, 1947
Minutes
6 Meeting 5-January 13, 1948
Minutes
7 Meeting 6-February 12, 1948
Memorandum for the NSC, February 9, 1948
1 Memorandum for the NSC, February 9, 1948, with attachment
4 Meeting 7-March 11,1948
Minutes
6 Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the President, March 11, 1948
1 NSC 1/2 (as amended): "The Position of the United States With Respect to Italy," March 12, 1948
12 NSC 1/3 (as amended): "Position of the United States With Respect to Italy in the Light of the Possibility of Communist Participation in the Government by Legal Means," March 12, 1948
11 Note by the Executive Secretary Regarding NSC 1/2
1 Note by the Executive Secretary Regarding NSC 1/3
1 Note from Ina Holtzscheiter to George Elsey, March 12, 1948
1 Meeting 26-November 3, 1948
Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the Secretary of Defense, October 29, 1948, with attachment
2 Meeting 35-March 3, 1949
NSC Progress Report on NSC 8/2, "The Position of the United States with Respect to Korea," May 18, 1949
3 Meeting 36-March 22, 1949
Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the NSC on NSC 17/3, "A Report to the National Security Council by State, Army, Navy, Air Force Coordinating Committee on Internal Security," November 26, 1948, with attachments
7 Meeting 38-April 21, 1949
NSC Status of Projects, April 18, 1949
9 Meeting 39-May 5, 1949
NSC 46: "Understandings on Export Control in East-West Trade," May 3, 1949
10 Meeting 41-June 2, 1949
NSC Status of Projects, May 27, 1949
10 Meeting 42-June 16, 1949
NSC Status of Projects, June 13, 1949
10 Meeting 43-July 7, 1949
NSC Status of Projects, July 1, 1949
10 Meeting 44-August 4, 1949
NSC Status of Projects, July 29, 1949
12 Meeting 45-September 15, 1949
Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the President, September 16, 1949, with attachment
2 Meeting 46-September 29, 1949
NSC 52/2: "Governmental Programs in National Security and International Affairs for the Fiscal Year 1951," September 26, 1949
2 Memorandum from Sidney Souers to the NSC on NSC 52/2, September 28, 1949, with attachment
4 Meeting 47-October 20, 1949
NSC Progress Report on the Austrian Treaty Negotiations, October 17, 1949 [two copies of this document in folder]
7 Memorandum from James Lay, Jr. to the NSC, October 21, 1949, with attachments
5 Meeting 48-November 17, 1949
NSC 18/3: "United States Policy Toward the Conflict Between the USSR and Yugoslavia," November 10, 1949
20 NSC 18/4: "United States Policy Toward the Conflict Between the USSR and Yugoslavia," November 17, 1949
21 NSC Progress Report on NSC 38/4, "Future Courses of U.S. Action with Respect to Austria," January 3, 1950
7 Meeting 49-December 8, 1949
NSC 58: "United States Policy Toward the Soviet Satellite States in Eastern Europe," September 14, 1949
23 Meeting 50-December 29, 1949
Memorandum from James Lay, Jr. to Dean Rusk and Others, October 26, 1949, with attachment

I think between Beef Contract's and poising American's, like they do today with the Nevada tests as seen from the Nevada strip, with Atomic, Neutron, and Hydrogen Bomb testing and the use of such nightmare's, that Forrestal was about to reveal something. Maybe, it had to do with what was being mobilized.

reply to post by PhyberDragon


It may well be that Johnson and Forrestal, et al. were in bed over Beef contracts, and had a falling out over the Chemical, Biological, Ionized Radiation, and Nuclear Radiological aspects of contaminating the Atmosphere, Land, and Water Tables of the US North American Continent and effectively killing, sterilizing, deforming, and making our Citizen's sick.

Then, to show off to the Russian's, their,

not our (we had nothing to do with it-- I'd of killed those responsable, before they could ever have developed, tested, or used such nightmares. Even now, there's no good reason we didn't or don't),

infecting the Globe, as a whole, with their Atomic and Hydrogen atmospheric bombing of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, and two other cities in Japan affected by them.

(a Google search only shows three, listing Bikini Atoll of the Marshall Islands as the third, but that is not accurate, there were two other cities hit with the H- Bomb directly, I just can't recall them off the top of my head, I don't see them listed in Wikipedia under the 67 cities conventionally fire bombed, but then, Wikipedia is subject to faulty info.)

I'll post them if I ever think of them.

Maybe, the fact that the two cities are not listed has to do with why Forrestal and Co. were in dispute.

They killed more people with the H-Bomb than with the A- Bomb. With thousands more dying Worldwide from cancers, etc. and, babies being born with defects every day. Maybe, the sites I'm thinking of were the more concentrated Hydrogen Bomb form, the Neutrino Bomb. It'll come to me someday. If anyone else has a clue, feel free to add it.

Oh! And while there were concerns about Japan's Bio Warfare, there was also a major misunderstanding of Japanese, as they were seen as inferior, as a race. We were very racist back then. They fell into the sub- civilised Mongoloid Category of races, above the Barbarian Class of Blacks, Browns, and some Red's, but, below the highly civilized, Anglo- Saxon Category.

I think the Bio Warfare concerns were with what America was doing to her Citizen's and the World. Structurally, or Conspiratorially, conscience or not, there was more going on, and, for longer periods than we are, typically, ever told.

I think Forrestal was about to air some very dirty laundry after the shock of the A and H Bombs really set in.


Which bombings and tests are why we have a crappy Atmosphere and a Warming Microwave oven of a planet. We are all being poisoned every day we are alive, and so will our children for thousands of years to come. We have lakes of waste adding to the problem, and tons of it seeping out of barrels dumped not less than 50 miles off our coasts and everywhere else you can imagine, with more being made daily, both, in the US Canada, South America, and abroad. Put the flat map together and we are all close neighbor's, especially our closest Western neighbor, the Soviet Union-- or whatever name it goes by today.

If I were Forrestal, Oppenhiemer, truman, LeMay, Johnson, Souer, or any of those clowns, I'd kill myself, too, I wouldn't need an agent to do it for me.

Maybe, his death was a suicide and the most honorable thing he's ever done in his life.

[edit on 29-1-2009 by PhyberDragon]

Originally posted by reject
1949? I think that was too early in the game for things to get sinister, if it all ties back to roswell 1947. I think forrestal may have been freaked out by what he experienced. Maybe he saw a live ET and it unnaturally communicated with him, perhaps deliberately messing with his mind even after its death.

My opinion is that what crashed at Roswell was indeed an ET spaceship. But I do not think it started there.

There is the less known but also highly interesting Cape Girardeau, Missouri Crash from 1941.

ufos.about.com...

www.ufoevidence.org...

The Majestic 12 documents also mention this crash.

www.majesticdocuments.com...

There is also a thread on ATS about this alleged crash.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

The last part of your post about Forrestal is also interesting. I thought I read somewhere that some people claim Whitley Strieber's book Majestic is actually based on the Forrestal diaries. I haven't read the book but there is a part about Forrestal meeting the live EBE that survived the Roswell crash. This appears to be wild speculation though so I took it with a grain of salt.

Originally posted by scorpionxx
great post it's one the best posts that I've read here in ats in quite a while. btw this is my first time hearing about majestic 12 documents and was wondering where they came from and who leaked it out to the general public.

Thanks.

The Majestic 12 documents first surfaced in 1984. Jaime Shandera found a package in his mail containing only an undeveloped roll of film. Jamie had the roll developed and a set of apparently photographed secret documents
emerged. From then on notable researchers like Stanton Friedman studied the documents for years. There authenticy is still fiercely debated to this day.

All the documents can be viewed here.

www.majesticdocuments.com...

There are also two excellent documentaries about Majestic 12.

One is called The Secret and can be found on Youtube and such. You can also order it from the Majestic website.

www.majesticdocuments.com...

The name of the second one eludes me but it is also on Youtube. I would give you the links but I cannot access Youtube from work.

Just type in Majestic 12 in youtube and you should have no problem finding it.

Stanton Friedman also has lots of info about them on his website.

www.v-j-enterprises.com...

Enjoy.

Originally posted by wylekat
Some questions I have about the murder scene...

There's what looks like splinters of wood or something mixed with the glass.... And I read on.. that glass cannot be from an ashtray. a) why would an ashtray be in the room of a suicidal person? b) has anyone ever SEEN an ashtray from that area? Heavy heavy glass. You'd have to beat it with a hammer to break it, and REALLY pulverize it to get it into pieces that thin and that small. And that makes noise- especially in a quiet place like a hospital. I also saw the ashtray in the pic- and the glass on the floor doesn't match what that ashtray could splinter into.

Excellent points.

I went for the ashtray as it was stated during the testimonies that Forrestal sometimes smoked pipe in his room. He was allowed to do this because he was doing well and was close to a full recovery. That's one of the many things that makes the suicide story so unbelievable.

I did not notice the wood mixed with glass. Nice find. It was speculated that the glass could also have been a petri dish. Could that be a better candidate for the glass?

You also bring up some good points about the handwriting. Especially the slant caught my attention.

Thanks for sharing, great contribution to the thread.

[edit on 29/1/09 by Fastwalker81]

Woah!

Talk about a massive paper trail of evidence, did they seriously think logical people would see that hammy assassination as a suicide?

They must think very lowly of people or they are extremley incompetent.

reply to post by diamount

Exactly.

I think they very well knew that nobody with half a brain would buy the suicide story or atleast question it after reading the official report.

That's why they kept it classified for so long. If David Martin didn't push on with filing FOIA requests it would probably still be classified. They brushed him off the first time but he tried again somewhere else and succeeded.

All the major players and even most of their children are long dead now...

The Majestic 12 documents first surfaced in 1984. Jaime Shandera found a package in his mail containing only an undeveloped roll of film. Jamie had the roll developed and a set of apparently photographed secret documents emerged. From then on notable researchers like Stanton Friedman studied the documents for years. There authenticy is still fiercely debated to this day.

Researchers should note, Shandera has close ties (may even be one codenamed "Woodpecker") to those often referred to as "The Aviary", so you kind of have to take any info there with a grain of salt. Still, many of the majestic 12 docs may be legitimate, and the people often suspected of being in the group certainly would be logical choices (for the most part) for such a group.

Do you remember Admiral Boorda who allegedly committed suicide in 1996 by shooting himself twice in the chest. He was the Chief of Naval Operations.

Some say he was involved in a plan to arrest President Clinton.