The pre-creation existence of Jesus

reply to post by jmdewey60


That sounds like the most likely case.

I don't want to change the subj and don't want to start a new thread, but what do you think about people who say they are Christian, and they say they believe Jesus is the Son of God and Savior, but they don't believe Jesus was born of a virgin or was resurrected, don't believe he resurrected Lazarus?

reply to post by doctorex

So where was Jesus, if Yahweh said there was none beside him, yet you say He was "with" God before his birth.?If Jesus was Yahweh, then where was God the Father, if Jesus said there was none beside him?

Do you ever listen to stories on the radio, on shows like coasttocoastam, where a four year old is talking about how he was flying a bomber across the Channel in WW II ? What was going on with the kid? He named off different people he was with and how different ones died. It took so many years on the part of the parents to find out that what he said was right.
What if you were Mary and your young son says, "Mother, for some reason I remember being with God when the world was created." Would you tell him, "Of course that can not be right because we know that God was alone." "Hmm, now that you mention that, there was not an actual physical presence there but His thoughts were there with me and I was doing the things, as I saw fit, that were coming from Him." "How very strange. I do not think it could have happened that way. Just forget about it and do something useful like learn how to read."

reply to post by Bombeni

With God, all things are possible.
Oops, one-liner alert!
People do not understand how things were before because there has been a falling away. We do not see these kinds of things happening around us because of a lack of faith.

Originally posted by doctorex
Jesus did not pre-exist creation, he didn't even pre-exist his birth.

some interesting points.

but im abit under the weather so ill have to get back to you

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Do you ever listen to stories on the radio, on shows like coasttocoastam, where a four year old is talking about how he was flying a bomber across the Channel in WW II ? What was going on with the kid? He named off different people he was with and how different ones died. It took so many years on the part of the parents to find out that what he said was right.

I believe such cases a due to demonic influence, to confuse and twist truth. The demons have been around for thousands of years they know the past. I do not believe in reincarnation, since it contradicts scripture....

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Yes there will be resurrection, but this has not yet taken place.

What if you were Mary and your young son says, "Mother, for some reason I remember being with God when the world was created." Would you tell him, "Of course that can not be right because we know that God was alone." "Hmm, now that you mention that, there was not an actual physical presence there but His thoughts were there with me and I was doing the things, as I saw fit, that were coming from Him." "How very strange. I do not think it could have happened that way. Just forget about it and do something useful like learn how to read."

Jesus never said that, so it's completely hypothetical, so I don't see your point.

Isaiah 45 explains that God the Father was on his own before the birth of Christ, so to me, I believe God. I once believed the mainstream view that Christ pre-existed, but once it was clear that this contradicts scripture, I had to change my belief, since God's not going to change his. All the scriptures that seem to say otherwise, upon further examination, don't exactly say that, they are simply translated that way because that is what the translators already believed, but when it comes down to it, you can't twist the clear cut passage that God laid out in Isaiah 45. Once you understand this, it brings many other scriptures alive such as....

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;


It also helps you to appreciate all the more the sacrifice that Jesus made, that he was a man (Acts 2:22), tempted in all things (Hebrews 4:15) who knew he was going to die, knew with all his mind and body what he was about to go through....

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

yet went through with it,

Matthew 26:42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.

and had faith that his Father would raise him again from the dead after three days and three nights....

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (the grave), neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption (decay).

The Eternal God (Yahweh) cannot die.
The Eternal God cannot be tempted.
The Eternal God is not the son of man, He is self existent.

Jesus died. Jesus was tempted. Jesus was the both the son of man, and the son of the Eternal God.

Without even quoting scripture, that in itself should show that Jesus, the man that walked the Earth, who died for our sins, was not the Eternal God, He was His Son. If Jesus had pre-existed, then he would have been immortal, and not able to pay our death penalty with his life, which he most assuredly did.
God bless.

reply to post by doctorex

. . . immortal, and not able to pay our death penalty. . .

There are a lot of people who would take the opposite view on this. The Bible says that a man’s life is not enough to pay for another’s.

Jesus died. Jesus was tempted. Jesus was the both the son of man, and the son of the Eternal God.

Jesus was. That is correct. You have to understand that “Jesus” is specifically the name of a human person who was born of a woman. Before that, there was no one named Jesus, who is the same person we know by that name and was the Galilean from Nazareth and known as being the son of Joseph and Mary and died on a cross on Golgotha by order of Pontius Pilot.

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

That was John the Baptist. The Gospel says he was the greatest of all the prophets.

The Eternal God (Yahweh) cannot die.
The Eternal God cannot be tempted.
The Eternal God is not the son of man, He is self existent.

You are ascribing certain attributes to a certain One who you are calling “God”. There is a god who you may be thinking of that would fit with these specifications but I doubt you mean the same One that I would be thinking of. I think it is a mistake to blindly accept every mention of someone or something being called “God” in the Bible as meaning the same One who is the Supreme God who Christians would call The Father, meaning the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ. I have to think there is a generic "god" used as a term to apply things that happen, to its proper source, or intention.

Jesus never said that, so it's completely hypothetical, so I don't see your point.

I was trying to get your opinion about what sort of memory Jesus may have had, seeing as there was the Word who became flesh and became one of us. Do you just write off the first 18 verses of John 1? How about when he found himself to be in human form but still remembered being something else? Do you just write that off too? How about where the Son was the image of God, up in heaven and went to earth to work out salvation and then returned to heaven. Is there no continuity of consciousness here?
You might want to watch my little video about the Nature of Christ.
media.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 17-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by doctorex

 

. . . immortal, and not able to pay our death penalty. . .

There are a lot of people who would take the opposite view on this. The Bible says that a man’s life is not enough to pay for another’s.

Jesus was no ordinary man, he was the Son of God, he was without blemish, the personification of the passover lamb, He was the very thing this pictured.

Jesus died. Jesus was tempted. Jesus was the both the son of man, and the son of the Eternal God.

Jesus was. That is correct. You have to understand that “Jesus” is specifically the name of a human person who was born of a woman.

My point exactly, and God the Father said that before the birth of Christ, there was none beside him, but there now is, His Son, Jesus Christ. Is Jesus not still called Jesus, or does this name only refer to the body he walked the earth in?

Deuteronomy 18:15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;

That was John the Baptist. The Gospel says he was the greatest of all the prophets.

If you read Acts 3, and it's context, you will see that it is indeed speaking of Christ....

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
17 And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers.
18 But those things, which God before had showed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

The Eternal God (Yahweh) cannot die.
The Eternal God cannot be tempted.
The Eternal God is not the son of man, He is self existent.

You are ascribing certain attributes to a certain One who you are calling “God”.

When the God the Father I am referring to is called Yahweh, I think it's safe to assume it's the same God.

Do you just write off the first 18 verses of John 1?

I'm not writing off anything, it just doesn't say what what most believe it to say. God explains that in the begining it was only him, His thoughts, Logos, his revelatory thought, just as it says in Isaiah 45, and he did all the creating, just as it says through the Old testament. It then goes on to say that His word was made flesh, he begot a Son, and dwelt among us. If Jesus was God during his physical life, explain verse 18....

18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

It says that no one has seen God the Father, a word that means to see physically, but says that his Son declared him. Did the world not see Jesus? If they did, then why does it say that no one has seen God?

How about when he found himself to be in human form but still remembered being something else? Do you just write that off too? How about where the Son was the image of God, up in heaven and went to earth to work out salvation and then returned to heaven. Is there no continuity of consciousness here?

Feel free to quote the scriptures you are referring to. You have to keep in mind that Jesus was the word of God made flesh, he gave God the Father credit for most of what came out of his mouth, since they were God's words coming through him....

John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

We could debate forever, but there is no getting around the plain, beautiful simplicity explained in Isaiah 45...

5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things .

This cannot be twisted, or mistranslated to give a certain agenda or preconceived idea. It's beautiful. Yahweh says that before the birth of Christ, he was one, there was no other beside him. So if Christ was with Him at this time, is God the Father lying?

Can you see that what you believe contradicts this? Can you not admit that Yahweh was the one prophesied to raise up a messiah, that David said would raise up Christ from the dead, and that Christ would after his resurrection sit at the right hand of Yahweh, that Christ is now at the right hand of his Father, making it indisputable that Yahweh was Christ's Father? Can you now see, and believe, what Christ's Father (Yahweh) said before the birth of His Son?

5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things

To me it's as beautifully clear as crystal, so I guess it's pointless for both of us to continue discussing this. God bless

[edit on 17/5/09 by doctorex]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
What if you were Mary and your young son says, "Mother, for some reason I remember being with God when the world was created."

matt 3:[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:

"the heavens were opened" could also mean that his memories were restored to him at that time.

reply to post by miriam0566
To Jesus it would have been an absolutely overwhelming experience. Or not, I am not sure. It would have been to any ordinary person. It could have been something that he somehow knew about or at least understood was a possibility. He prayed for it, apparently, and he did not act like he had been taken by surprise, afterwards.
This is obviosly an event of enlightenment and may be the single most significant of any he would have had during his lifetime.

reply to post by jmdewey60


what about about to say is sheer speculation.

the bible says that the spirit led jesus into the wilderness. we usually read that to mean that it compulsed him, that that was the reason he went into the wilderness.

maybe the spirit was just guiding him to a place were he could be alone. maybe he left to the wilderness to take a moment and think about all the memories that had returned to him. i mean it would be alot to suddenly remember billions + years of life in heaven and also to now know exactly why you are earth and what you are about to do.

again, sheer speculation.

the only thing that i have to back it up is

mark 6:[1] And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
[2] And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
[3] Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.

there is a parallel verse in matt 13:55

the people in jesus' life before his baptism saw him as just "mary's kid". apparently they didnt really see anything extraodinary about him.

so it leads me to believe 2 possibilities, either jesus didnt know about his prehuman existence until his baptism, or he did know but never talked about it.

again, it really is based on what "heavens opening up" means.


[edit on 18-5-2009 by miriam0566]

reply to post by miriam0566


You are correct, that's why Satan never tried to test Jesus before, he had to wait. Also Jesus needed time to absorb all the information the Holy Spirit just gave him. It is the only time Jesus was in prolonged isolation after his baptism too. He wouldn't have done that unless he needed to.

As a side point Jesus was a perfect being he couldn't get sick, only tired, a natural side effect of Holy Spirit flowing through his physical body.
He had a perfect immune system, he never had to worry about getting leprosy or any other disease that he was curing.

reply to post by miriam0566

so it leads me to believe 2 possibilities, either Jesus didn't know about his prehuman existence until his baptism, or he did know but never talked about it.

That makes me think of a post I made a while back on the "Did Jesus go to India?" thread. Why was Jesus not famous for being outspoken for discussing the things of God? He showed his propensity for it at the age of twelve and there is no reason to think he changed his personality after that. I was putting forward the idea that he was most likely in Babylon at the schools there for studying the Bible. He seemed to show a knowledge of the concepts that were being argued in those schools. I do not think that is a complete explanation, but it would account for part of the time.
I do not think your speculation is out of place, at all. There is a lot that can be, and has been, read into the description of the event. One would be that at this time, Jesus took the official office of Son of God, apparently based on God declaring it at this time.
As for the sky splitting, you could go so far as to imagine that there was a path opened between Jesus and heaven, to where he could look all the way to the throne of God. A thought that would occur to me is something that would go along with my understanding of Hebrews 1. The bestowing of the divine presence is reminiscent of when he was in heaven and was the direct interpreter of God's glory.




[edit on 18-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Jesus knew who he was from the time he was an infant, he knew he was the Son of God, he didn't suddenly remember this later in life, he simply grew in it, and was completely filled with the spirit at his baptism

Luke 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast.
43 And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
44 But they, supposing him to have been in the company, went a day's journey; and they sought him among their kinsfolk and acquaintance.
45 And when they found him not, they turned back again to Jerusalem, seeking him.
46 And it came to pass, that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the doctors, both hearing them, and asking them questions.
47 And all that heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
48 And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
49 And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?
50 And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
51 And he went down with them, and came to Nazareth, and was subject unto them: but his mother kept all these sayings in her heart.
52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

We can all speculate, but why doesn't anybody want to discuss what is absolute in God's word, such as God saying that before the birth of Christ, He was alone, that there was none (no Elohim) by his side?

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

Let me try to lay it out with purely human logic. If Christ was Elohim before his birth, death and resurrection, why does his Father say that before the birth of His Son there was no Elohim beside him? Why was Christ not called God until after his resurrection to eternal life? God the father states quite clearly that there was no Elohim beside him, so either Christ was not yet in existence, or Christ was not yet Elohim (God). If Christ was not yet Elohim (God), but in existence, then what was he? If he was the "word" spoken of before his birth in John 1, then why does it say that this word spoken of in John 1 before his birth was God, yet God the Father says there was no other God beside him before the birth of his Son? You are left with only one possible conclusion, that Christ was not in existence before his birth, he was the word of God made flesh, the offspring of God with a human mother. He was both the Son of God, and the son of man. How can the son of man be in existence before man was? How could he be the promised seed of Abraham? God is immortal, so how did Jesus die? To say that this was simply a miracle is to say that the Eternal God can die, which is absolutely impossible, and it is essentially saying that it is still possible that Jesus, now resurrected to immortality, could now die, which is absurd.

Over time we have stepped away from what was revealed truth before the birth of Christ. The Israelites knew quite clearly that God was one from their scriptures, and that is one of many reasons why Judaism today objects to what mainstream Christianity teaches, because they misunderstand the new testament just as much as the majority of Christians do. Even of those who can come away from the trinity doctrine, most never quite completely come away from it. The belief that Christ pre-existed is nothing but a watered down version of the trinity doctrine, but with only two. Don't get me wrong, there are many teachers from the past that taught the pre-existence of Jesus, that doesn't make me think any less of them, or anybody who does today believe this.

reply to post by doctorex

The belief that Christ pre-existed is nothing but a watered down version of the trinity doctrine,

What??? How???

They aren't the same being, that isn't even close.

Are you saying the Christ was literally created at his human birth?

Originally posted by doctorex
We can all speculate, but why doesn't anybody want to discuss what is absolute in God's word, such as God saying that before the birth of Christ, He was alone, that there was none (no Elohim) by his side?

because its a cherry picked argument.

you pick isaiah, but you ignore other passages.

john 38:[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

john 17:[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

phil 2:[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

2 cor 8:[9] For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

John 8:58 “I tell you most solemnly, I existed before Abraham was born.” —New Testament by C.B. Williams

in other words, your argument in the strictest literal sense doesnt hold water.

the question should be, what is Isaiah 45:5,6 saying.

"ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else."

first, you take "beside" to mean literally beside someone, like next to.

beside
zuwlah (zoo-law')
probably scattering, i.e. removal; used adverbially, except -- beside, but, only, save.

so, "except me, there is no other god" would clear up that confusion in this case.

is god saying that there are no other gods?

no, he cant be be cause the word "'elohiym" (gods) is also used for angels. we KNOW there are angels.

we also KNOW that the "inspired" word of god also calls other people "god" including jesus himself.

is isaiah flat our lying then? not at all. this chapter is dealing specifically with worship.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

there is no other god except Jehovah that we should worship.

reply to post by doctorex

The Israelites knew quite clearly that God was one from their scriptures, and that is one of many reasons why Judaism today objects to what mainstream Christianity teaches, because they misunderstand the new testament just as much as the majority of Christians do.

You use the name Israelites for some reason, instead of Hebrews or Jews. The Israelites had no problem worshiping the golden calf, so I am not sure about what you mean by that statement.
Lets take a look at some of the beliefs of the Jews.

for with regard to those words so often mentioned in the history of the creation, and God said, may Jehovah the Son be called the word; also he was spoken of as the promised Messiah, throughout the whole Old Testament dispensation; and is the interpreter of his Father's mind, as he was in Eden's garden, as well as in the days of his flesh; and now speaks in heaven for the saints. The phrase, (yyd armym) , "the word of the Lord", so frequently used by the Targumists, is well known: and it is to be observed, that the same things which John here says of the word, they say likewise, as will be observed on the several clauses; from whence it is more likely, that John should take this phrase, since the paraphrases of Onkelos and Jonathan ben Uzziel were written before his time, than that he should borrow it from the writings of Plato, or his followers, as some have thought; with whose philosophy, Ebion and Cerinthus are said to be acquainted; wherefore John, the more easily to gain upon them, uses this phrase, when that of the Son of God would have been disagreeable to them:

The commentator is saying that there was a phrase available to John, to use to describe the preexistent nature of Jesus, that would have been recognizable to the Jews of his time, but would not be immediately identified as being of Greek philosophical origin.

that there is some likeness between the Evangelist John and Plato in their sentiments concerning the word, will not be denied. Amelius, a Platonic philosopher, who lived after the times of John, manifestly refers to these words of his, in agreement with his master's doctrine: his words are these;
``and this was truly "Logos", or the word, by whom always existing, the things that are made, were made, as also Heraclitus thought; and who, likewise that Barbarian (meaning the Evangelist John) reckons was in the order and dignity of the beginning, constituted with God, and was God, by whom all things are entirely made; in whom, whatsoever is made, lives, and has life, and being; and who entered into bodies, and was clothed with flesh, and appeared a man; so notwithstanding, that he showed forth the majesty of his nature; and after his dissolution, he was again deified, and was God, as he was before he descended into a body, flesh and man.''

Gill goes on to say that even if there was an underlying Greek connection, it was through a man who would normally be considered an icon of Greek philosophy but who was in fact a Jew.

In which words it is easy to observe plain traces of what the evangelist says in the first four verses, and in the fourteenth verse of this chapter; yet it is much more probable, that Plato had his notion of the Logos, or word, out of the writings of the Old Testament, than that John should take this phrase, or what he says concerning the word, from him; since it is a matter of fact not disputed, that Plato went into Egypt to get knowledge: not only Clemens Alexandrinus a Christian writer says, that he was a philosopher of the Hebrews, and understood prophecy, and stirred up the fire of the Hebrew philosophy; but it is affirmed by Heathen writers, that he went into Egypt to learn of the priests, and to understand the rites of the prophets; and Aristobulus, a Jew, affirms, he studied their law; and Numenius, a Pythagoric philosopher, charges him with stealing what he wrote, concerning God and the world, out of the books of Moses; and used to say to him, what is Plato, but Moses "Atticising?" or Moses speaking Greek: and Eusebius, an ancient Christian writer, points at the very places, from whence Plato took his hints: wherefore it is more probable, that the evangelist received this phrase of the word, as a divine person, from the Targums, where there is such frequent mention made of it; or however, there is a very great agreement between what he and these ancient writings of the Jews say of the word, as will be hereafter shown.

Lets skip forward in Gill to some specific examples.

the phrase is frequently used in like manner, in the writings of Philo the Jew; from whence it is manifest, that the name was well known to the Jews,. . .
it was preached before. . .by the prophets under the former dispensation, as by Isaiah, and others; it was preached before unto Abraham, and to our first parents, in the garden of Eden.

Philo goes on to explain the preexistence of the word as:

really existed as a divine person, as he did from all eternity; as appears from his being set up in office from everlasting; from all the elect being chosen in him, and given to him before the foundation of the world; from the covenant of grace, which is from eternity, being made with him; and from the blessings and promises of grace, being as early put into his hands; and from his nature as God, and his relation to his Father:

Micah 5:2 is proof that the ancient Jews understood the Messiah was eternal, "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
Psalm 72:17 says, "His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed." The targems, which are the ancient Jewish commentaries of the scriptures says concerning that verse, "before the sun his name was Yinnon." which means the Son, as in the Son of God. Another entry translates it as "he shall be called the son". The Talmudisis agree.
Gill goes on to write on the second clause of John 1:1 in this way:

John here speaks of the word, as a distinct person from God the Father, so do the Targums, or Chaldee paraphrases; (Psalms 110:1) "the Lord said to my Lord", is rendered, "the Lord said to his word"; where he is manifestly distinguished from Jehovah, that speaks to him; and in (Hosea 1:7) the Lord promises to "have mercy on the house of Judah", and "save them by the Lord their God". The Targum is, "I will redeem them by the word of the Lord their God"; where the word of the Lord, who is spoken of as a Redeemer and Saviour, is distinguished from the Lord, who promises to save by him. This distinction of Jehovah and his word, may be observed in multitudes of places, in the Chaldee paraphrases, and in the writings of Philo the Jew; and this phrase, of "the word" being "with God", is in the Targums expressed by, (Mdq Nm rmym) , "the word from before the Lord", or "which is before the Lord": being always in his presence, and the angel of it; so Onkelos paraphrases (Genesis 31:22) "and the word from before the Lord, came to Laban"… and (Exodus 20:19) thus, "and let not the word from before the Lord speak with us, lest we die";

Genesis 28:21,22 says, "And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:" and is paraphrased by Onkelos;
``if "the word of the Lord" will be my help, and will keep me… then "the word of the Lord" shall be, (ahlal yl) , "my God":''
Leviticus 26:12 says, "And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people." This is paraphrased, by the Targum ascribed to Jonathan Ben Uzziel, thus; ``I will cause the glory of my Shekinah to dwell among you, and my word shall "be your God", the Redeemer;''
Deuteronomy 26:17 says, "Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:" which is rendered by the Jerusalem Targum after this manner; ``ye have made "the word of the Lord" king over you this day, that he may be your God:''
These are a few examples that I can access the easiest. There are a lot more and some that are very explicit about the word being a person and was the future Messiah. What I am trying to point out by quoting Gill here is that the concept of the preexistence of the Messiah was pretty much universally accepted as a given by the Jews in the time of Jesus.


[edit on 19-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by doctorex

If Christ was Elohim before his birth, death and resurrection, why does his Father say that before the birth of His Son there was no Elohim beside him?

You do know that "Elohim" is the plural form of "God" or "Almighty" right? "Eloha" is the singular form of the word yet the plural form was used during the creation verses in Genesis." And how do you explain the phrase, "Let US make man in OUR image."? From Genesis and it was plural. Who was God talking to? It's not trinitarian. It's the fact that Jesus and God were and are two different beings.

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by doctorex
We can all speculate, but why doesn't anybody want to discuss what is absolute in God's word, such as God saying that before the birth of Christ, He was alone, that there was none (no Elohim) by his side?

because its a cherry picked argument.

you pick isaiah, but you ignore other passages.

No, it is not a cherry picked argument, and I ignore nothing.

john 38:[38] For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Yes, he came from heaven, he came from his father, who is in heaven. I came from my fathers testicles, but that doesn't mean I pre-existed in his scrotum.

john 17:[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

A mistranslation. In the greek, it can just as well be translated - "And now, Glorify me you Father, beside yourself, to the glory which I have before the age to be, beside you."

Christ knew he was about to rise to his fathers side, to be there until he returned with his kingdom, the world, or age to be, still future, not the past.

phil 2:[5] Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
[6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
[7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

This is saying nothing more than that Christ was the form of God (he was his son), took the form of a servant, just as all misinsters do, and that he humbled himself unto death. This does not say he pre-existed, you are simply reading that into it.

2 cor 8:[9] For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Again, yes he was rich spiritually, he had the fullness of Gods spirit, he was the greatest walking the earth during his life, but he humbled himself to be a servant of all. It doesn't say he pre-existed.

John 8:58 “I tell you most solemnly, I existed before Abraham was born.” —New Testament by C.B. Williams

Another mistranslation. Abraham was promised that his seed would be Christ, because God knew his plan of salvation before he even created the Angels. You also have to remember, that much of what Christ said, came directly from God the Father, as he said many times, the words that I say are not mine, but the words of my Father. Many forget that. Many also forget that God said he knew Jeremiah before his birth, because he planned him before he was even in the womb, but again, Jeremiah didn't pre-exist, only figuratively in the plan of God...

JEREMIAH 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Do you believe Jeremiah pre-existed also?

in other words, your argument in the strictest literal sense doesnt hold water.

I'm afraid it does.

the question should be, what is Isaiah 45:5,6 saying.

"ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else."

first, you take "beside" to mean literally beside someone, like next to.

But it's okay for you to assume that Christ was literally beside his father?

beside
zuwlah (zoo-law')
probably scattering, i.e. removal; used adverbially, except -- beside, but, only, save.

so, "except me, there is no other god" would clear up that confusion in this case.

is god saying that there are no other gods?

no, he cant be be cause the word "'elohiym" (gods) is also used for angels. we KNOW there are angels.

This is exactly what Yahweh is saying, there is no ther God's, he is not talking of angels. God the Father explicitly says that at this point in time there was no Elohim with him, that he was one, and there was none else. So what is your position? Was Christ not yet Elohim, or was he not yet in existence?

we also KNOW that the "inspired" word of god also calls other people "god" including jesus himself.

Yes, but Christ is not called God until after his resurrection.

is isaiah flat our lying then? not at all. this chapter is dealing specifically with worship.

23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

there is no other god except Jehovah that we should worship.

And Yahweh said at this time, there was no Elohim beside him, so again, what is your position, was Christ the son not yet Elohim, or was he not yet in existence, or what exactly?

[edit on 19/5/09 by doctorex]

Originally posted by jmdewey60

You use the name Israelites for some reason, instead of Hebrews or Jews. The Israelites had no problem worshiping the golden calf, so I am not sure about what you mean by that statement.

I said Israelites and not Jews because most falsely assume that all the people mentioned in the Old testament from the exodus on were Jews, when in reality the jews were those of the southern kingdom of Judah, after the Kingdom of Israel split following the death of Solomon, that is why I said Israelites,to include them all and not just the jews. Yes they strayed from God many times, but they knew from the scriptures that God, as in Yahweh, was one.

Lets take a look at some of the beliefs of the Jews.

I have no real interests in the beliefs of the Jews, they don't even observe the Passover on the correct day, which is quite clear in scripture to be on the 14th of of the first month, not the 15th.

Exodus 12:6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening.

Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover.

Numbers 9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.

Numbers 9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

Numbers 28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD.

Joshua 5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains of Jericho.


[edit on 19/5/09 by doctorex]

double post

[edit on 19/5/09 by doctorex]