The pre-creation existence of Jesus

Originally posted by doctorex
Isaiah 64:8 But now, O LORD (Yawheh), thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

prov 8:[22] The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
[23] I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
[24] When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
[25] Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
[26] While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
[27] When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
[28] When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
[29] When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
[30] Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
[31] Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
[32] Now therefore hearken unto me, O ye children: for blessed are they that keep my ways.
[33] Hear instruction, and be wise, and refuse it not.
[34] Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.
[35] For whoso findeth me findeth life, and shall obtain favour of the LORD.
[36] But he that sinneth against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.

john 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

The old testament shows who did the creating, it was Yawheh, which itself proves that John 1 is not talking about Jesus, it is talking solely about his Father.

"through him" is not claiming jesus himself created, it claiming that jesus was an agent that god used to create.

Of course not, as God's word shows, Jesus didn't do the creating, because this isn't even talking about Jesus.

john 1 is talking about jesus.

col 1:[13] .....his dear Son:
[14] In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

but since this scripture will likely mean nothing to you, explain to me this.

if john 1 is speaking of god, how did he create all things "through" himself as mentioned in verse 3?

much like an architect's designs are realized through a builder.

Again, God's word shows who the builder, potter, former, layer of foundations was, namely Yahweh, but you have to explain that away to hold on to your belief it was Jesus, and the only thing you have to go on on is your interpretation of John 1, but if you let scripture interpret scripture, it shows who John 1 is talking about, Yahweh.

nothing to support your claim. in fact, your whole argument hinges on a translation that says "the word was god" which is not what it says in greek.

2 - "He was in the beginning with God."

who was with god? GOD?

3 - "All things came into being through Him"

GOD made things through GOD?

You even contradict yourself by saying that Jesus was the only thing that Yahweh directly created, thereby stating that Jesus was made, then you say that John 1 is talking about Jesus, but what does it also say?

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

If all things that were made, meaning anything that was made, were made by Jesus, who you also agree was made, did Jesus make himself?

thats like the "if god created everything, who created god?" argument atheists like to use.

your nit picking at these little details , yet verse 3 says nothing of jesus' creation. so the context is obvious

GOD created jesus.

GOD created all other things through jesus. (proverbs 8:22-36; col 1:13-16; john 1:3)

jesus is even called the "firstborn of all creation", "the beginning of god's creation" (col 1:15; rev 3:14)

if jesus is "the beginning of the creation of god", then who created everything before jesus' birth.

Like I said, it's pointless discussing it. Look into the wording of the verses you quote, such as the meaning of "through" (as in through him all things were made" etc, when the greek word actually has many meanings, such as "because of" "by reason of", "for the sake of". All those verses are simply mistranslations, but I couldn't be bothered any more going into it. God will clear it all up VERY soon, sooner than most think.

God bless.

Originally posted by doctorex
Like I said, it's pointless discussing it. Look into the wording of the verses you quote, such as the meaning of "through" (as in through him all things were made" etc, when the greek word actually has many meanings, such as "because of" "by reason of", "for the sake of". All those verses are simply mistranslations,

if you spoke greek, you wouldnt think it was a mistranslation

διὰ (dia) - through, on account of

Matthew 1:22 τοῦτο δὲ ὅλον γέγονεν ἵνα πληρωθῇ τὸ ῥηθὲν ὑπὸ κυρίου διὰ τοῦ προφήτου λέγοντος·
Now all this has happened, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,

"through the prophet" matt 2:5,15,23 4:14 8:17

"by" (prophet, also meaning through) matt 2:17 3:3

"through" or "by" the narrow gate 7:13

"through" a wheat field. matt 12:1

in fact, there are so many uses of the word "διὰ" that i could fill a whole thread.

strong's concordance list over 520 occurrences.

next time you claim its a mistranslation, make sure the people you are talking to dont study greek.

but I couldn't be bothered any more going into it. God will clear it all up VERY soon, sooner than most think.

yes, the old "god will show you"

god already did, by providing the bible

reply to post by miriam0566

ISAIAH HIMSELF prophecies about jesus and calls him "MIGHTY GOD" (isaiah 9:6)

I am just pulling this out of the middle of your post but I want to address this because it seems to have something to do with what I was reading last night.
My cousin was looking at doctorex's posts and told me to check out Jeremiah 23:6 which says, "In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS."
I looked it up in Jamieson-Faussett-Brown and it said to look at Jeremiah 33:16 which says "In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness."
How is it you have a verse that people are happy enough to say that is prophesying about the Messiah, and then you have another verse with almost the same wording that uses the word SHE? Is there a female Messiah that we do not know about? No, it is talking about Jerusalem. So, if the second verse is a city, what is the first verse about? Is it a single specific person? You would have to conclude that it means the government that is based on the rule of a branch of the seed of David.
It goes right along with what you were saying earlier about the "Ye are gods" quote. That one was talking about the same sort of thing, namely that these persons were given the responsibility of the government.
All this goes along, in turn, with what I was telling doctorex, that you can not take every instance in the Bible that uses "god" to literally mean "God", who we otherwise know as the Heavenly Father of Jesus.


[edit on 21-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by miriam0566


Yup if you want to up your level of understanding of truth, learn a little pertinent Greek and Hebrew like Miriam has. Really if you don't study the basic words that involve core belief structures, your beliefs rest on the hope that other people got it right. That's a huge risk, don't you think?

Actually the whole dogma is a house of cards, change up one Greek or Hebrew word and the whole thing falls apart.

I just realized my point in starting this thread. I was making the claim that Jesus was the "God" of the Old Testament. Just flow with me for a minute. I'm not saying that Jesus is the Father. I'm saying that Jesus was the one the prophets heard, that Moses saw, that Adam conversed with. He is the Word of God. Here's some of the same booklet "Jesus Christ: The Real Story":

Perhaps the boldest claim Jesus made about His identity was the statement, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Translated into English, His statement may appear or sound confusing. But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, He was making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him for blasphemy.

What was going on here? Jesus was revealing His identity as the actual One whom the Jews knew as God in the Old Testament. He was saying in one breath that He existed before Abraham and that He was the same Being as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Anciently when the great God first revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:13-14, Moses asked Him what His name was. "I AM WHO I AM," was the awesome reply. "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Jesus clearly claimed to be this same Being—the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (verse 15).

"I AM" is related to the personal name for God in the Old Testament, the Hebrew name YHWH. When this name appears in our English Bibles, it is commonly rendered using small capital letters as LORD. It is transliterated as "Jehovah" in some Bible versions.

When Jesus made this startling statement, the Jews knew exactly what He meant. They picked up stones to kill Him because they thought He was guilty of blasphemy.

"I AM" and the related YHWH are the names of God that infer absolute timeless self-existence. Although impossible to translate accurately and directly into English, YHWH conveys meanings of "The Eternal One," "The One Who Always Exists" or "The One Who Was, Is and Always Will Be." These distinctions can apply only to God, whose existence is eternal and everlasting.

In Isaiah 42:8 this same Being says, "I am the LORD [YHWH], that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to carved images." A few chapters later He says: "Thus says the LORD [YHWH], the King of Israel, and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the First and I am the Last; besides Me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6).

To the Jews, there was no mistaking who Jesus claimed to be. He said He was the One the nation of Israel understood to be the one true God. By Jesus making claim to the name "I AM," He was saying that He was the God whom the Hebrews knew as YHWH. This name was considered so holy that a devout Jew would not pronounce it. This was a special name for God that can only refer to the one true God.

Dr. Norman Geisler, in his book Christian Apologetics, concludes: "In view of the fact that the Jehovah of the Jewish Old Testament would not give his name, honor, or glory to another, it is little wonder that the words and deeds of Jesus of Nazareth drew stones and cries of 'blasphemy' from first-century Jews. The very things that the Jehovah of the Old Testament claimed for himself Jesus of Nazareth also claimed" (2002, p. 331).

Jesus identified with YHWH
Dr. Geisler goes on to list some of the ways Jesus equated Himself with YHWH of the Old Testament. Let's notice some of these.

Jesus said of Himself, "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11). David, in the first verse of the famous 23rd Psalm, declared that "The LORD [YHWH] is my shepherd." Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations (John 5:22, 27). Yet Joel 3:12 says the LORD [YHWH] "will sit to judge all ...nations."

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Isaiah 60:19 says, "The LORD will be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory." Also, David says in Psalm 27:1, "The LORD (YHWH) is my light."

Jesus asked in prayer that the Father would share His eternal glory: "O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Yet Isaiah 42:8 says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another ."

Jesus spoke of Himself as the coming bridegroom (Matthew 25:1), which is how YHWH is characterized in Isaiah 62:5 and Hosea 2:16.

In Revelation 1:17 Jesus says He is the first and the last, which is identical to what YHWH says of Himself in Isaiah 44:6: "I am the First and I am the Last."

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

When Jesus was arrested, His use of the same term had an electrifying effect on those in the arresting party. "Now when He said to them, 'I am He,' they drew back and fell to the ground" (John 18:6). Notice here that "He" is in italics, meaning the word was added by the translators and isn't in the original wording. However, their attempt to make Jesus' answer more grammatically correct obscures the fact that He was likely again claiming to be the "I AM" of the Old Testament Scriptures.

"I and My Father are one"
The Jews confronted Jesus on another occasion, asking Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If you are the Christ [the prophesied Messiah], tell us plainly" (John 10:24). Jesus' answer is quite revealing: "I told you, and you do not believe" (verse 25). He had indeed confirmed His divine identity on a previous occasion (John 5:17-18).

Jesus adds, "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me" (John 10:25). The works He did were miracles that only God could do. They could not refute the miraculous works Jesus did.

He made another statement that incensed them: "I and My Father are one" (verse 30). That is, the Father and Jesus were both divine. Again, there was no mistaking the intent of what He said, because "then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him" (verse 31).

Jesus countered, "Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?" The Jews responded, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God" (verses 32-33).

The Jews understood perfectly well what Jesus meant. He was telling them plainly of His divinity.

The Gospel of John records yet another instance in which Jesus infuriated the Jews with His claims of divinity. It happened just after Jesus had healed a crippled man at the pool of Bethesda on the Sabbath. The Jews sought to kill Him because He did this on the Sabbath, a day on which the law of God had stated no work was to be done (which they misinterpreted to include what Jesus was doing).

Jesus then made a statement that the Jews could take in only one way: "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." Their response to His words? "Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath [according to their interpretation of it], but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:16-18).

Jesus was equating His works with God's works and claiming God as His Father in a special way.

Edited to add quotes.




[edit on 5/22/2009 by Locoman8]

Jesus claimed authority to forgive sins
Jesus claimed to be divine in various other ways.

When Jesus healed one paralyzed man, He also said to him, "Son, your sins are forgiven you" (Mark 2:5). The scribes who heard this reasoned He was blaspheming, because, as they rightly understood and asked, "Who can forgive sins but God alone?" (verses 6-7).

Responding to the scribes, Jesus said: "Why do you raise such questions in your hearts?...But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins"—He said to the paralytic—"I say to you, stand up, take your mat and go to your home" (verses 8-11, NRSV).

The scribes knew Jesus was claiming an authority that belonged to God only. Again, the LORD (YHWH) is the One pictured in the Old Testament who forgives sin (Jeremiah 31:34).

Christ claimed power to raise the dead
Jesus claimed yet another power that God alone possessed—to raise and judge the dead. Notice His statements in John 5:25-29:

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live...All who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

There was no doubt about what He meant. He added in verse 21,"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will." When Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead, He said to Lazarus' sister, Martha, "I am the resurrection and the life" (John 11:25).

Compare this to 1 Samuel 2:6, which tells us that "the LORD [YHWH] kills and makes alive; He brings down to the grave and brings up."

Jesus accepted honor and worship
Jesus demonstrated His divinity in yet another way when He said, "All should honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). Over and over, Jesus told His disciples to believe in Him as they would believe in God. "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me" (John 14:1).

Jesus received worship on many occasions without forbidding such acts. A leper worshipped Him (Matthew 8:2). A ruler worshipped Him with his plea to raise his daughter from the dead (Matthew 9:18). When Jesus had stilled the storm, those in the boat worshipped Him as the Son of God (Matthew 14:33).

A Canaanite woman worshipped Him (Matthew 15:25). When Jesus met the women who came to His tomb after His resurrection, they worshipped Him, as did His apostles (Matthew 28:9, 17). The demon-possessed man of the Gadarenes, "when He saw Jesus from afar ...ran and worshiped Him" (Mark 5:6). The blind man whom Jesus healed in John 9 worshipped Him (verse 38).

The First and Second of the Ten Commandments forbid worship of anyone or anything other than God (Exodus 20:2-5). Barnabas and Paul were very disturbed when the people of Lystra tried to worship them after their healing of a crippled man (Acts 14:13-15). In Revelation 22:8-9, when John the apostle fell down to worship the angel, the angel refused to accept worship, saying, "You must not do that!...Worship God!" (Revelation 22:8-9, NRSV).

Yet Jesus accepted worship and did not rebuke those who chose to kneel before Him and worship.

Jesus' instruction to pray in His name
Jesus not only tells His followers to believe in Him, but that when we pray to the Father, we are to pray in Christ's name. "And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son" (John 14:13). Jesus made it clear that access to the Father is through Him, telling us that "no one comes to the Father except through Me" (verse 6).

The apostle Paul states of Jesus: "Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Philippians 2:9-11).

Paul is telling us that God the Father Himself is upholding the fact that Jesus is God, by exalting His name to the level of the One through whom we make our requests and the One before whom we bow. Jesus also assures us that He will be the One who will give the answer to our prayers ("...that I will do," John 14:13).

In so many ways Jesus revealed Himself as the God of the Old Testament. The Jews saw Him do many things that only God would or could do. They heard Him say things about Himself that could only apply to God. They were angered and responded with outrage and charged Him with blasphemy. They were so infuriated by His claims that they wanted to kill Him on the spot.

Jesus' special relationship with God
Jesus understood Himself to be unique in His close relationship with the Father in that He was the only One who could reveal the Father. "All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him" (Matthew 11:27).

Dr. William Lane Craig, an apologist writing in defense of Christian belief, says this verse "tells us that Jesus claimed to be the Son of God in an exclusive and absolute sense. Jesus says here that his relationship of sonship to God is unique. And he also claims to be the only one who can reveal the Father to men. In other words, Jesus claims to be the absolute revelation of God" (Reasonable Faith, 1994, p. 246).

Christ's claims to hold people's eternal destiny
On several occasions Jesus asserted that He was the One through whom men and women could attain eternal life. "This is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40; compare verses 47 and 54). He not only says that people must believe in Him, but also that He will be the One to resurrect them at the end. No mere man can take this role.

Dr. Craig adds: "Jesus held that people's attitudes toward himself would be the determining factor in God's judgment on the judgment day. 'Also I say to you, whoever confesses Me before men, him the Son of Man also will confess before the angels of God. But he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God' (Luke 12:8-9).

"Make no mistake: if Jesus were not the divine son of God, then this claim could only be regarded as the most narrow and objectionable dogmatism. For Jesus is saying that people's salvation depends on their confession to Jesus himself" (Craig, p. 251).

The conclusion is inescapable: Jesus understood Himself as divine along with the Father and as possessing the right to do things only God has the right to do.

The claim of Jesus' disciples
Those who personally knew and were taught by Jesus, and who then wrote most of the New Testament, are thoroughly consistent with Jesus' statements about Himself. His disciples were monotheistic Jews. For them to agree that Jesus was God, and then to give their lives for this belief, tells us that they had come to see for themselves that the claims Jesus made about Himself were so convincing as to leave no doubt in their minds.

The first Gospel writer, Matthew, opens with the story of the virgin birth of Jesus. Matthew comments on this miraculous event with the quote from Isaiah 7:14, "'Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,' which is translated, 'God with us'" (Matthew 1:23). Matthew is making it clear that he understands that this child is God—"God with us."

John is likewise explicit in the prologue to his Gospel. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God ...And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:1, 14).

Some of them called Him God directly. When Thomas saw His wounds, he exclaimed, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Paul refers to Jesus in Titus 1:3 and 2:10 as "God our Savior."

The book of Hebrews is most emphatic that Jesus is God. Hebrews 1:8, applying Psalm 45:6 to Jesus Christ, states: "But to the Son He says: 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.'" Other parts of this book explain that Jesus is higher than the angels (1:4-8, 13), superior to Moses (3:1-6), and greater than the high priests (4:14-5:10). He is greater than all these because He is God.

He left us no middle ground
The renowned Christian writer C.S. Lewis observes: "I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher ...

"You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to" (Mere Christianity, 1996, p. 56).

That's it. I'll also post on some other attributes and claims between Jesus and the Old Testament YHWH.

I know I already posted it, but for those who skip longer posts, I summarized it.

Jesus said of Himself, "I am the good shepherd" (John 10:11).
David, in the first verse of the famous 23rd Psalm, declared that "The LORD [YHWH] is my shepherd."

Jesus claimed to be judge of all men and nations (John 5:22, 27). Yet Joel 3:12 says the LORD [YHWH] "will sit to judge all ...nations."

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world" (John 8:12). Isaiah 60:19 says, "The LORD will be to you an everlasting light, and your God your glory." Also, David says in Psalm 27:1, "The LORD (YHWH) is my light."

Jesus asked in prayer that the Father would share His eternal glory: "O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was" (John 17:5). Yet Isaiah 42:8 says, "I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another ."

Jesus spoke of Himself as the coming bridegroom (Matthew 25:1), which is how YHWH is characterized in Isaiah 62:5 and Hosea 2:16.

In Revelation 1:17 Jesus says He is the first and the last, which is identical to what YHWH says of Himself in Isaiah 44:6: "I am the First and I am the Last."

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.



Just thought I'd stir things up a bit more here.

reply to post by miriam0566

GOD created all other things through jesus. (proverbs 8:22-36;. . .

This is a chapter of Proverbs that deals with the Sophia. There are actually churches named after it, as if it is a person. Is it a person? The question is similar to the question "Is the Word a person?". Many comparisons have been made between the Logos as a person, and the Sophia as a person. I am not any sort of expert so I would like to post some expert opinion about it. This is something here (see below) that seems pretty good, concerning it. It may be instructive to consider it and it may help to understand the Word.

In this chapter wisdom is personified. In 1:20-33 wisdom proclaims her value, and in 3:19-26 wisdom is the agent of creation. Such a personification has affinities with the wisdom literature of the ancient Near East, and may have drawn on some of that literature, albeit with appropriate safeguards (Claudia V. Camp). Wisdom in Proverbs 8, however, is not a deity like Egypt’s Ma`at or the Assyrian-Babylonian Ishtar. It is simply presented as if it were a self-conscious divine being distinct but subordinate to God; but in reality it is the personification of the attribute of wisdom displayed by God (R. B. Y. Scott and R. Marcus). Many have equated wisdom in this chapter with Jesus Christ. This connection works only in so far as Jesus reveals the nature of the Father, just as Proverbs presents wisdom as an attribute of God. Jesus’ claims included wisdom (Matt 12:42) and a unique knowledge of God (Matt 11:25-27). He even personified wisdom in a way that was similar to Proverbs (Matt 11:19). Paul saw the fulfillment of wisdom in Christ (Col 1:15-20; 2:3) and affirmed that Christ became our wisdom in the crucifixion (1 Cor 1:24, 30). So this personification in Proverbs provides a solid foundation for the similar revelation of wisdom in Christ. But because wisdom is a creation of God in Proverbs 8, it is unlikely that wisdom here is to be identified with Jesus Christ.

[edit on 22-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by Locoman8

I just realized my point in starting this thread.

You might also notice, if you were to look back at the start of the thread, that the second post was by me, stating my opinion of the deceptiveness of the propaganda piece you put up.
Your latest installment does not get any better reception from me, than the first post. It seems like an exercise in deception that verges on the ridiculous.
The comparisons of a parable with an analogy does not make a substantial argument to support a serious assertion. One is someone talking about himself in the role of the shepherd, and the other is speaking from the point of view of the sheep.
The judgment in Joel is written as a metaphor about the restoration of Judea from exile. It is written in the future tense but is talking about a now past event. Jesus says, "The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do:" Jesus is designated to carry out God's intentions. What God had promised to do Himself, he does through His Son.
Jesus can be the Light of the World that God desires to have in existence because Jesus, as the Son, is the interpreter of God's will, because he knows His intentions.
The bridegroom in Isaiah is the government of God, personified in Jerusalem. Jesus is the embodiment of the Kingdom of God.
The glory that Jesus asked for was nothing different than what he had always had, and he acknowledges that even when he was in the presence of God, the glory that he did have, came from God.
When God is saying He is the First and the Last, it is a roundabout way of saying He is eternal, compared to the man-made idols that are subject to destruction. God has an Image that is eternal and is superior to the graven images in that he has put the fullness of His power into it. Jesus is the Image of God.


[edit on 22-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Perhaps the boldest claim Jesus made about His identity was the statement, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Translated into English, His statement may appear or sound confusing. But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, He was making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him for blasphemy.

What was going on here? Jesus was revealing His identity as the actual One whom the Jews knew as God in the Old Testament. He was saying in one breath that He existed before Abraham and that He was the same Being as the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Anciently when the great God first revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:13-14, Moses asked Him what His name was. "I AM WHO I AM," was the awesome reply. "Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

Jesus clearly claimed to be this same Being—the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (verse 15).

i get a headache every time i read this claim.

english is NOT the original language of the bible

i say this because this argument relies on a quote that was never quoted.

Hebrew

וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים אֶל־מֹשֶׁה אֶהְיֶה אֲשֶׁר אֶהְיֶה וַיֹּאמֶר כֹּה תֹאמַר לִבְנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל אֶהְיֶה שְׁלָחַנִי אֲלֵיכֶם׃

'elohiym 'amar Mosheh hayah hayah 'amar 'amar ben Yisra'el shalach

hayah - A primitive root (compare hava'); to exist, i.e. Be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary) -- beacon, X altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-)self, require, X use.

this part of the scripture can also be translated "i shall be what i shall be." which honestly makes more sense than "I am that I am"

what was god saying by that?

he meant that whatever he needed to be, that he would become. if israel needed a king, the god would be a king, if they needed a warrior, then god would be a warrior. what ever was needed to fulfill his purpose.

in other words, he was identifying the fact that he can be whatever he wants to be.

there is also nothing in the scripture that demands the translation of "I AM"

Greek

jesus said "πριν αβρααμ γενεσθαι εγω ειμι"

ειμι - The first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic) -- am, have been, X it is I, was.

why would "have been" and "was" be included in the singular present indicative? because not all languages work like the "original" english.

in koine, the present perfect tense means something different. it denotes an action that started in the past but finishes in the past. so when greek speakers wanted to show something that started in the past but continues even now, they used present indicative. jesus was obviously making the point that he existed before abraham was born, and that he continued past when he was saying that. so it should have been written in present indicative, which it is.

in english, present perfect means something that started in the past, and continues to now. so technically for jesus' statement to make any sense, it should be translated in present perfect "i have been"

the quote

"I shall be what I shall be" ≠ "I have been"

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is there any other evidence that jesus was referring to exodus? well your article says "But in the Aramaic or Hebrew language in which He spoke, He was making a claim that immediately led the people to try to stone Him for blasphemy."

does the jews wanting to stone him automatically mean he was claiming to be god? no. likely the jews didnt understand at all what jesus was saying. but to them, there was a man who was claiming something outrageous, namely that he was alive from before abraham.

so no, there is not real evidence to suggest that jesus was quoting exodus.

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

really, you guys amaze me sometimes.

you shed blood sweat and tears explaining how jesus is not his father and then you do a 180 with faulty reasoning and title comparing.

Originally posted by miriam0566

There is no question that Jesus understood Himself as the LORD (YHWH) of the Old Testament.

really, you guys amaze me sometimes.
you shed blood sweat and tears explaining how jesus is not his father and then you do a 180 with faulty reasoning and title comparing.

Oops, I guess you are including me, too. OK, I can see how I can be included in what you consider an error. From your point of view it would be hard to distinguish my opinions from Locoman's.
I was talking to one of my cousins about Blue Jay's view of the roles of the father and son. I said something like, "Obama went to Notre Dame and they gave him an honorary degree. So, you can have a title by declaration. Someone else could actually earn a degree at the same school and get a title of doctor. But to have a title of King, you have to be born to it." To me, Jehovah is a title and you can have it by decree or you can earn it or you can be born with a right to it.
I guess you go to heaven and god is sitting there and there is a sign at the bottom of the thrown that says JEHOVAH. And he has it stamped into his belt buckle and engraved on His bracelet. (if this was His actual personal name)
I think He guards Himself from identity theft by not giving out His real name and says 'I am whatever and whoever I want to say I am, and if you do not like it, too bad because I am God and who is going to tell me what to do'.
I realize you have this religion that wants to feel special so they appropriated His name for themselves, thinking they can circumvent God's security system. Go ahead and think it is a fine organization that teaches the truth, but I have to think they really missed it on this one.


[edit on 23-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
To me, Jehovah is a title.....

.....I think He guards Himself from identity theft by not giving out His real name and says 'I am whatever and whoever I want to say I am, and if you do not like it, too bad because I am God and who is going to tell me what to do'.

i want you to think about people in your life that you are close to. people that you care about deeply and who care about you.

how many of them dont know your name? are there any people that you dont know the names of?

by demoting Jehovah from a name to a title, you miss out. god becomes that much further from you. how can you be friends with someone if you dont even know something as simple as his name?

psalm 83:[18] That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth. (KJV)

if jesus was Jehovah, how can jesus be the most high over the earth and then have the father over him?


[edit on 23-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Regarding the famous quote: "I AM"

just wanted to expand a little further on miriam's greek lesson

"I AM" in koine greek

reply to post by holywar
A pretty smart video, too bad he has a crappy microphone.
This should be required viewing for anyone who thinks they are a Christian or who would like to know something about Christianity.
The video narrator leaves enough leeway for critically thinking people to adapt this to their own personal viewpoint about all the who and what questions about Jesus and God. If it does not work for you, I think you have a serious problem and might want to consider changing ministers, or whatever.

reply to post by miriam0566
God does not seem to have a problem with lending out His name.
I have not done exhaustive research into all the uses of it but I do have a certain impression about it. Like in my other post where I point out that "The Lord Our Righteousness" in Jeremiah 33:16 is Jehovah, Tsidkenu but it is talking about Jerusalem. God lends it his name because he chooses it. The same is done to the Messiah, earlier in the same writer.
I do not think we are so far from agreement about a lot of things that I need to beat on you or try to change your mind. There were plenty of times when the only people I felt comfortable talking about God with were Jehovah's Witnesses because of my seriously negative reaction to all things tainted by the Nician Trinity. I am sure that you think I have sold out to the anti-christ. If you feel a need to bash me about, feel free to do so, while we still have a forum to do such things. I hate to think about what things will be like once the NWO freaks have their Hate Crimes Bill for internet "bullying" passed and signed.
So, I just want to let you know if you, or anyone else ever feels like accusing me of being a sell-out and a traitor, or something worse, I will accept it as loving guidance from a concerned fellow Christian, and not "hate speech".
For a few years I have used "Long live the Republic, death to the New World Order" as my signature when I post on my local political forum. Now they openly admit that they are setting up a new world order and it means death to the Republic. Gross and disgusting bunch of pigs and go ahead and arrest me, if it applies to you.


[edit on 23-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by miriam0566


This doesn't prove my opinion. I was simply shareing an article from someone elses point of view. It is reasonable to question it in that way. When I read it, I thought it sounded like a trinity thing but if you think about it, Jesus being the Word of God would most likely put Him as the spokesperson of God. You can make the claim that Jesus as the Word was any physical representation of God. He was the burning bush, He was the High Priest that Abraham tithed to, He was the voice the prophets heard. This is not taking away the fact that God or Jehova exists separate from Jesus.... it's just that Jesus carried out the works of God as a physical or visual force in the lives of the patriarchs.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Don't be so quick to call someone out on deception. It's all on how you look at the article. Sure there are words to look at like "I Am" in greek and hebrew, but the main part of this article, which maybe should have been the part I concentrated on is that of Jesus calling Himself the Good Shepherd and Jehova calling Himself a Shepherd. Jesus claiming to be the light of the world and Jehova being the Light of the World, etc. It's not such an outrageous claim.