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The pre-creation existence of Jesus

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posted on May, 10 2009 @ 09:48 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 

what interesting is that he wasnt trinitarian. but what he did establish for the church is exactly what you are saying. “and what God was the Word was.” he led the belief that god and jesus were the same "stuff". make of the same substance.

In my earlier post commenting on Hebrews 1:3, I was trying to say The Father and The Son were not the same stuff. The Father is made up of stuff that is too glorious for even the angels to look at. The Son is the likeness of The Father in every way excerpt for the "stuff" part.
By saying that “and what God was the Word was.” to me, means that when you see one, you see the other because they are the same God.




posted on May, 10 2009 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
25 years ago I started collecting the ancient fathers of the church and so forth, thinking I could get closer to understanding who Jesus was by going to the people who were close chronologically.
I found out that what passed for logic to these people would not be recognizable to us today as such.
You can see how we went into the Dark ages because people got stuck on ideas that were considered unmovable facts.
This is what Arius was going against and he did not have much of a chance for success, not because there was anything wrong with his logic but there seemed to be a type of worship of the "classics" that stunted the growth of understanding, in this time.
And so out of the depths of institutionalized ignorance, we get the Nicene Creed. YEEH!!



Fuzzy Logic is an interesting book

its mostly on computer programing but its also a facinating way of looking at logic in general



posted on May, 10 2009 @ 11:12 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


in fact what is the difference between jesus being part of god and actually being god?

I do not think someone can be part of God. Not, and be an actual separate person. By being a person you can not be a part of something else. Being a person makes you an individual.
An exercise in who or what God is, could be thinking about who Moses had these encounters with over in Sinai. Here was this being, going around exercising all the powers of God and claiming to be God and talking about creating the world, and being the Lord. Was this actually God, if in fact it was really The Word manifesting itself to the earth as the image of God? Yes, it has to be God. Was The Word in any way representing itself as being anything concerning being another entity? Of course not! that would be ridiculous. So, as The Word was operating here and there, there is no indication at the time that it was anything other than what it was the image of.
To go along with my earlier hypothesis, what was evident at Sinai was the same reflection or representation of God that was in heaven and was discernible by the angels. That image of God, that was tolerable in heaven, in the presence of Holy Angels became a killing thing to humans, when it came to earth.
As time goes on, it becomes evident that something drastically different has to happen before God can speak directly to the people of Israel. There is already this aspect of God that has been representing God in a spiritual form. If somehow that could be stepped down a notch and actually become a flesh and blood person, the channels of communication can be opened in the most direct way.
So, the thing happens and this concept of God being able to present Himself in a non-lethal way is incorporated into a person who is born into Israel. Just as that image of God at Sinai was in fact God, as the Spirit Being Word, in the same way, Jesus, when he starts his work of representing God as the material manifestation of The Word, is in fact God.


[edit on 10-5-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 12:05 PM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 


I think bluejay summed it up quite nicely for me. God the Father is the all-powerful God, the architect of all things created. Jesus, as His Son, was a god in His own right but did not have equal authority of power. The power Jesus has, God gave to Him. Satan is the "god of this world" as scripture says so to say there is only one god is false. There is only one Almighty God and no one else is equal to Him, not even His son.



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 01:31 PM
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The Son, as in Hebrews 1:3 is the image of God. So, his purpose was to be a reflection of the God who is too glorious to behold. I think the writer of Hebrews calls him the Son because this is his current status. To me, he is the same thing as the Word of John 1:1 who may illustrate God through works, wich would be a reflection of God.
When the Son found himself in the form of a man, it may have been the first point of his awareness as an individual person, separate from what he was the visual aspect of, namely God. This would correspond to the Word becoming flesh, as described by John. John said the Word was with God and was the same as God. So, the word would have been there as the outward manifestation of God through his activity and just his appearance. He could not have been some other god who just happened to enjoy mimicking God. When you saw the representation of God, in the Word or nominally the Son, you were seeing God.
When The Word or the Son or Jesus found himself as the actual material human Jesus, he was in fact God, as the exact representation, or image of God. Just as the Son is in heaven and is the very likeness of God, being the radiance of the Glory of the unsee-able God; Jesus as a man was the very likeness of God, and to carry on the logic of it, is in fact God. The likeness of god does not necessarily mean someone who "looks like" god, so when he was on earth, though he looked like an ordinary person, he was by the nature of his actions, representing God.



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by dthwraith
 


I think bluejay summed it up quite nicely for me. God the Father is the all-powerful God, the architect of all things created. Jesus, as His Son, was a god in His own right but did not have equal authority of power. The power Jesus has, God gave to Him. Satan is the "god of this world" as scripture says so to say there is only one god is false. There is only one Almighty God and no one else is equal to Him, not even His son.


Locoman
I wish more people, would "get it" like you do, once you study it, it's no mystery at all. In fact once you do "get it" it makes all the scriptures on this topic make perfect sense, and there are no contradictions at all.



posted on May, 12 2009 @ 11:56 PM
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reply to post by Blue_Jay33
 


That is one of the truest statements I've ever seen from you, and you post some pretty good stuff. Once a truth is revealed and then researched with scripture, all that's left to do is to see how it makes perfect sense as opposed to something like the "trinity" which isn't even a term used in any translation of the bible.

And to my SDA friend trying to explain the nature of the Word, Son, Jesus as God, let me ask you a direct question just so we can move on. Please be as blunt and straightforward as possible on your stance. Do you believe God and Jesus are the same exact being or do you believe Jesus is a separate being from God? A simple "same" or "separate" would do nicely. I'm only asking you this because you are trying to put too much into something that should be next to nothing to explain. After all you've talked about, I still don't understand your view on this subject. I do respect your views even when I don't agree with them but just do me this favor to clear up your stance on this.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 04:18 PM
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reply to post by Locoman8
 


Do you believe God and Jesus are the same exact being or do you believe Jesus is a separate being from God?
The KJV Bible nowhere uses the word "being" in association with any description of God.
Paul comes the closest to the use of the word in the sense of an individual, but he is talking about people. He was trying to relate to the philosophically minded Athenians so he adopted some of their language.
I think that the council of Nicea lost their way because they were using the method of Aristotle of describing beings. substance, quantity, quality, relation, place, time, posture, possession/habit, action, passion (receiving). These are the ten categories of being. They are all based on observation. Using this method, you would be attempting to reverse-engineer God by basing it on Jesus who has been observed.
To me, if God was subject to observation or analysis, and was of the same "substance" there would be no reason for the existence of the son.
Another problem comes up when you take into consideration that by being a "being" you are already by definition separate. If you were not separate, you would not be a "being".
My opinion is that there is no way to determine if God is a being or not. If Jesus, the human being, is a being, and it seems like he would have to be because of how we just defined him, and God is not technically a "being" then there is no imperative for there to be any separation between them.
Nicea, once they had mistakenly made the determination that God was a being, they were obligated to apply the categorization to God and made their huge error by making a decision about the "substance" of God and the "substance" of Jesus. They not only got everything about God wrong but they broke the rules of the philosophy they were using to base their way of thinking on. If The Father and the Son were of the same substance, then according to Aristotle, they would not be separate. But Nicea went ahead and after deciding they were of the same substance, said they were separate, which would be contradictory. Apparently they had an agenda and threw out any regard to rationality in order to get to their desired end result.
Jesus is different than God the Father, but not different from God. I think Nicea got it completely up side down. Out of the ten categories, they chose substance as what they had in common. To me, it would be all the categories, except for substance. God is the unlimited, and the undefinable, and Jesus is the definition of God, other than what He is, substance wise. God is unique and can not be understood through comparison to anything other than the Son.



posted on May, 13 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Stop with the long drawn out complicated answers. You are evading just like a politician.

Answer this question with a yes or no.

Is Jesus the same entity as the Almighty God?

Yes or no?



[edit on 13-5-2009 by Blue_Jay33]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:33 AM
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After some research on this I found out this is watchtower doctrine from the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. Which I do not except, I'm glad I looked into this before I completly bought into it! I'll leave you all with my responce and after that I wont be coming back to debate it. I'm not a JW so this doctrine has nothing to do with my life or faith.


The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible. Frequently investigation into the doctrine of the Trinity has been dismissed from serious discussion or study by invoking the time-worn assertions - "It's a great mystery" or "This is incomprehensible" - thus discouraging many from investigating the scriptural basis of the doctrine.

Due principally to this attitude as well as certain complex aspects of the Trinity doctrine itself, there has been a revival of anti-Trinitarian heresies during the past one hundred and fifty years, and they have gone largely unanswered. Prominent among those groups rejecting the historic doctrine of the Trinity are Mormonism, Christian Science, Unity, Spiritism, Herbert W. Armstrong and his Radio Church of God and Jehovah's Witnesses - i.e., The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.

According the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Trinity is a Satanic dogma of apostate Christianity that prevents people from knowing the true God, Jehovah. The Watchtower puts it this way:

The doctrine in brief is that there are three gods in one: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost...the Holy Spirit is not a person and is therefore not one of the gods of the Trinity...the Trinity doctrine was not conceived by Jesus or the early Christians...the obvious conclusion therefore is that Satan is the originator of the Trinity doctrine. 1

Since the Watchtower denies that the Trinity doctrine is Biblical; and since they complicate the issue by defining it incorrectly - the task of true Christians is two fold: First, a definition in accord with historic Christianity must be given. Secondly, it must be shown that the doctrine of the Trinity is both Biblical and essential to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

THE HOLY TRINITY

Definition: Within the unity of the One God there are three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and these three share the same Nature and attributes. In effect, the three Persons ARE the one God.

From this concise statement, similarly set forth in many theological texts,2 it is clear that the Christian Church does not believe that "there are three gods in One." Quite to the contrary, we affirm that there is but one God, as Scripture repeatedly asserts (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 43:10, 1 Tim 2:5).

Having defined the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it becomes necessary, secondly, to demonstrate inductively from the Bible that it is true.

To accomplish this, we begin with one basic premise: If it can be shown from Scripture that there are three persons, all of whom are called Jehovah (God), then, since there is only one Jehovah (Isa. 44:6, 48:12), those three Persons are the one God. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.

Just how it is possible for three to be One and for that One to be three, will also be explained. But first, the evidence:

1. THE FATHER IS JEHOVAH

Jehovah's Witnesses are quick to agree with the Apostle Peter that the Father is called Jehovah. Moreover, Peter and many other Biblical writers identify Him as a "person" (2 Peter 1:17). It is therefore unnecessary to press this point, the Witnesses having already conceded it.

However, we would point out that the word "person" is, by definition, descriptive of "ego" or "I." Without "ego," which distinguishes man from the beast, personality as such would cease to exist. Any reputable lexicon of Greek dictionary will substantiate the fact that the Greek word "ego," is the basis for our English term, "I." Jehovah designates His Being as The Great I AM (Ex. 3:14): So the Deity is Personal and possesses Ego, the hallmark of Personality.

We see, then, that one of the three "Persons" - the Father - is designated "God."

2. THE SON IS JEHOVAH

A careful study of the first chapter of Revelation (vs. 11-18) will show that Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, identifies Himself as "the first and the last" and "the one who became dead" and who now lives for all eternity.

It is of no small significance that in verse 13 of the last chapter of Revelation, He confirms this title with great emphasis, identifying Himself in verse 16 as "I Jesus," and declaring that He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." The context reveals that it is Jesus speaking (vs. 12), for He - not the Father - is coming "quickly" (Rev. 1:7; 1 Thess. 4:15,16).

It must never be forgotten that these titles ("the first and the last," "the Alpha and the Omega'" "the beginning and the end") belong only to Jehovah God (Isa. 44:6,8; Rev. 1:8, 21:6). But Jesus Christ claims them as His own, because He, the Son is also Jehovah!

We see, then, that there are either two firsts and two lasts (a hopeless contradiction of terms), or the Son is Jehovah, the one who was pierced for our sins (Zech. 12:10; Rev. 1:7,11,13) and who is truly "the fullness of Jehovah in flesh" (Col. 2:9).

The angel who showed John the wonder Revelation forbade the Apostle to worship him, for he was but a created being, a "fellow servant." Quite properly, he declared, "worship Jehovah," (Rev. 22:9). Yet Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah's Witnesses say is also a created being (i.e., Michael the Archangel), commended the worship of Himself as Jehovah (John 20:28,29). This would have been a blasphemous act of presumption on His part and a direct violation of His Father's commandments (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 6:17), unless He were in some mysterious sense on in Nature and Being with His Father. In such a case He would in truth be "equal with God" and entitled to receive worship as Jehovah(John 5:18,23).

Jehovah's Witnesses have always taught that Jesus Christ was no more than a perfect man, "certainly not the supreme God Almighty in the flesh."3 They state categorically that He was in no sense both God and man. "Some insist that Jesus while on earth was both God and man. This theory is wrong."4 Jehovah's Witnesses also maintain that our Lord was "the first and direct creation of Jehovah God," and that prior to His earthly life He was an angle.5

In contrast to this teaching, Scripture and the Christian Church declare the full Deity of Jesus Christ, and His equality with God the Father.

In the first verse of John's Gospel, Christ is revealed as the eternal Word of God who became flesh (verse 14) - the "image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4). Consider the emphasis "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God" John 1:1).

Note that John 1:1 states that the Word already was in the beginning - it does not say the Word "became" or "was created" by God, as Jehovah's Witnesses teach. The Witness incorrectly translate this text to read "the Word was a god,"6 but their translation is by both context and grammar an impossibility according to all recognized authorities on Greek. No recognized translation bears out their error.

Moreover, the Scriptures proclaim that Christ made "himself equal with God" (John 5:18), and that "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Deity bodily" (Colossians 2:9). The Bible further states that Christ claimed to be the great I AM (Jehovah) of the Old Testament (cf. Exodus 3:13-16 with John 8:58), and the Jews understood Him so clearly during His ministry that they sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy (John 8:59; cf. 10:28-33).



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:33 AM
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Jehovah's Witnesses pervert these texts and many others in their determined effort to demote our Lord from His position of God and Creator (Colossians 1; Hebrews 1); and they compound their error by translating the Greek of the New Testament, in many places, contrary to all grammatical authorities. It is certainly true that during His earthly life our Lord voluntarily limited Himself as a man (Philippians 2:6-8), and thus He never strove to usurp the prerogatives of Deity; But one does not have to "rob" what is His by inheritance (Hebrews 1). He was true Deity - "the great God" (Titus 2:13).

We must not forget that Christ humbled Himself, even to the death of the cross, and therefore, as a man, could say, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). However, let us remember that Christ never said, "My Father is better than I." "Better" is a term of comparison between natures (Heb 1:4), while "greater," as in the context of John 14, is a term of comparison relative to positions.

The President of the United States, for instance, is greater in position than any of his fellow-Americans by virtue of his office, but he would be the first to insist that he is not better than other human beings. So Christ was admittedly inferior to His Father positionally while on earth as a man, but the Scriptures clearly and unmistakably state that he was at all times His Father's equal on the spiritual plane of Divine Being or Nature (Heb. 1:3; John 5:18). Note also that in 1 Corinthians 15:28 it is function that is dealt with - not Deity.

Jehovah's Witnesses always point to Christ's humanity in the Bible; they carefully omit mention of His claim to full Deity, and they thus "wrest...the...scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16). the second Person, the Son, is also called God, then, despite the efforts of the Watchtower to prove the contrary.

3. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JEHOVAH

It is peculiar, to say the least, that Jehovah's Witnesses can agree with the Apostle Peter when he declared that the Father is Jehovah - and then contradict his affirmation that the Holy Spirit is likewise Jehovah, as recorded in Acts 5:3 and 4.

No Christian theologian has ever denied either the Person or Deity of the Holy Spirit, for the evidence to substantiate both is abundant in Scripture. For instance, a thorough study of the book of Acts, chapter thirteen, reveals that the Holy Spirit is a Person, because He possesses "ego." Luke records therin that the Holy Spirit as a Person has "ego" (13:2,4) and, furthermore, that He (not "it") prophesies to His servants and commissions them, as well (21:11). See also such verses as John 14:26, 15:26, Acts 8:29, 13:2, and Romans 5:5.

The Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit has a "will" (1 Cor. 12:11; Heb. 2:4), and since "will" denotes "ego" or personality, as opposed to the neuter (animals), obviously the Spirit is a person. We have also seen from Peter's words that when Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, he lied to Jehovah (Acts 5:4). Both the thirteenth chapter of Acts and Isaiah 48 add to the proof that the Holy Spirit is God, since He answers the prayers of the Apostles (Acts 13:1-4) and is designated Deity by the prophet Isaiah (48:16). Even the Watchtower admits that God alone answers prayer.

The Bible, then, does indeed teach that the Spirit is a Person and that He is called God. It is therefore apparent that there are three Persons mentioned in Scripture and that they are all identified as God: Yet there is only one true God (Isa. 45:22).

"LORDS MANY AND GODS MANY"

There are two other important points that must be mentioned.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that, because the Bible designates some beings and idols as "gods," it is proper for them to call Jesus "a god" and worship him as the angels did (Heb. 1:6). This is an important point and must be clarified.

Of course, it is true that God made Moses appear as a god in Pharoah's eyes (Exodus 7:1). Moreover, Satan, certain of the judges of Israel and pagan idols are described as "gods" in the Bible (John 14:30, Psalms 82:6, 1 Cor. 8:4, 10:19, 2 Cor. 4:4). Nevertheless, they are not deity by nature, as the Apostle Paul flatly states (Gal. 4:8). They are "gods" by angelic or human acclamation, and God addresses them in that context. Worshiping a thing can make it your god; but it is not God by nature - for by nature there is only one God (1 Cor. 8:4-6, 1 Tim. 2:5).

When this cardinal distinction is made in Scripture, the Watchtower's doctrine is refuted, and the problem of the usage of the term "gods" or "a god" disappears.

COMPOSITE UNITY AND THE TRIPLE POINT

The second important fact to be remembered is that of the meaning of the term "one."

"How is it possible," say the Jehovah's witnesses, "for Jehovah to be three and one both at the same time? It is illogical, unreasonable and confusing; and God is not the author of confusion!"

To answer this all-too-common objection, it should be kept in mind that the word "one" can denote composite as well as solitary unity. For instance, in Genesis (chapter 2), Adam and Eve are called one flesh; and Numbers (chapter 13) speaks of "one" when the context indicates that is was in reality a cluster of grapes hanging from one stem. Here are bona fide instances of composite unity.

The same Hebrew word, "echod" (one) is used in both cases, however, even as it is in Deuteronomy 6:4 where we are told that God is "One." The evident composite unity indicated here is confirmed in the New Testament. Our Lord spoke of composite unity where marriage is concerned (Mk. 10:8); so He, too, was aware of this important distinction. See also Joshua 9:2; Judges 20:1; 2 Chron. 30:12; Isaiah 65:25; Nehemiah 7:66 and Ezra 6:20 for further instances of composite unity.

Finally, let us illustrate how it is both logically and rationally possible for three to be one and one to be three simultaneously, since Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT believe this is possible.

It is a well-known fact of chemistry that plain water, when placed in a vacuum under 230 millimeters of gas pressure and at a temperature of 0 degrees Centigrade, solidifies into ice at the bottom of the container, remains liquid in the center and vaporizes at the top! At a given instant the same water is both solid, liquid and gas, yet all three are manifestations of the same basic substance or nature: H2O - hydrogen: two parts; oxygen: one.

If one of the simplest of all created substances can be three in manifested form and yet remain one in nature, then the Creator of that substance can surely be Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three Persons and one Nature - without any violation of logic or reason whatever if He so wills.

God is not triples (1+1+1) - He is triune (1x1x1), and He has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9; John 14:9).

Jehovah's Witnesses are not confused by the doctrine of the Trinity they are confused by the Watchtower Society, from whose power only the Son of God can liberate. It is our prayer that, in His own time, this will come to pass - "for ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...and if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:32,36).

Once the foregoing data have been understood, the following texts from the Old and New Testament confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. A prayerful reading of these passages will help strenghten your faith in this great and truly divine revelation of the Nature of God. It will promote faith in Him "who is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him by faith," since He alone is "the Way," (Heb. 7:25; John 14:6; Acts 16:31; 1 John 2:2; Romans 10:9-13).



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 03:34 AM
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1. Let God Be True, Watchtower Society, Edition 1946, pp. 81, 82, 87, Reconciliation J.W. Rutherford, p. 115. 2. The Trinity, Baker's Dictionary of Theology, p 115. 3. Let God Be True, p. 87 4. The Truth Shall Make You Free, Watchtower Society, p. 49, The Harp of God, J.W. Rutherford, pp. 101, 128. 5. The Kingdom Is At Hand, pp. 46, 47-49. 6. Let God Be True, pp. 34, 35.



TRINITY TEXTS: (1) Old Testament Hints - Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:12, Zech. 12:9,10. (2) The Creation - Genesis 1:2, In 1:3. (3) The Incarnation - Lk. 1:35. (4) The Baptism of Christ - Matt. 3:17,17. (5) The Resurrection of Christ - Acts 2:26, 1 Thess. 1:10 (The Father), Jn 2:19-21, (The Son), Rom. 8:11, 1 Pet 3:18 (The Holy Spirit), Acts 17:31 (God). (6) The Great Commission - Matt. 28:19. (7) The Divine Benediction - 2 Cor. 13:14. See also John 14:16,26, 15:26.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 04:21 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 

After some research on this I found out this is watchtower doctrine from the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. Which I do not except, I'm glad I looked into this before I completly bought into it! I'll leave you all with my responce and after that I wont be coming back to debate it. I'm not a JW so this doctrine has nothing to do with my life or faith.
What doctrine are you talking about? The Trinity? Is it only JW's that need to be concerned about it? What was the extent of your research? Was it reading the first hit that you got on Google? Did you actually look up the verses that "Dr." Walter Martin uses to debunk JW's. Debunk is the right term. This is what the guy is, a debunker. He does not come off as being an actual theologian. His area of expertise that he studied, according to his own bio, is in how to make arguments against religions who you consider your enemy.
These are about the weakest arguments for the trinity that are available and demonstrate the most superficial understanding of the subject. Miriam does not have a doctor's degree in theology but she has taken apart all of these arguments on this forum.
Little pat answers about the nature of god and what others believe about it show a flippant attitude that should show you that you should move on, at least to the second google hit, and ignore this hack.




[edit on 14-5-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 06:59 AM
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Jesus did not pre-exist creation, he didn't even pre-exist his birth. There are many verses that are poorly translated in English that may be interpreted as such, but the Old Testament says over and over again that God was one. God says in the book of Isaiah that at that time (before the birth of Jesus) he was one, and none were beside him....

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (Yahweh) do all these things .

This passage cannot be twisted. God plainly states that He (Yahweh) was one, there was none else, there was no God (elohim) beside him.

Some say that Jesus was Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament, but this is not true. Peter makes this quite plain in the book of Acts, when he quotes the psalms, prophecies of David concerning the relationship between Yahweh and his Son, Jesus.....

Acts 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.


Peter above quoted Psalm 16, and later explains this is David speaking prophetically, as being from the perspective of Jesus, and notice the word used in identifying Christ's Father, remember this is fromChrist's perspective.....

PSALMS 16:8 I have set the LORD (Yahweh) always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.
9 Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.
10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fullness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures forevermore.

Yahweh was Christ's Father.

Peter continues in Acts 2.....

29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Again, Peter quotes the Psalms to explain that David said "the LORD (yahweh) said unto my Lord (Jesus), Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool", and since it was God the Father that said this to Christ, and the word used to describe the Father here is in Hebrew is Yahweh (Psalms 110:1), then it cannot be disputed that Yahweh was Christ's Father. Christ himself even quoted this same verse, explaining that David prophetically called him (Christ) "my lord" (matt 22)

So now that it cannot be disputed that Yahweh was indeed the God the Father, and not Christ, read Isaiah 45 again....

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD (Yahweh) do all these things .

Clearly Christ was not with his Father when God the Father said this in the days of Isaiah, because he was yet to be born. He was the word of God made flesh. Passage in John 1 is not clearly or correctly translated...


JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The Greek word translated as "with" does not exactly mean that. A more correct translation would be unto, as in "belonging to". If John was saying that the word was "with" God, he would have used the Greek word "meta", which he used elsewhere in the book, such as John 3:26 (And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, He Who was with(meta) you on the other side of the Jordan, to Whom you have testified, lo! this One is baptizing and all are coming to Him") or John 6:3 (Now Jesus came up into the mountain, and there He sat with (meta) His disciples.)

Some say it was Christ who did the creating, but that is not the case, it was Yahweh, his Father....

Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD (Yahweh) God made the earth and the heavens,

7 And the LORD (Yahweh) God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Those who believe that the God of the Old Testament was Jesus, need to read the first two verses in the book of Hebrews, but even that can be misleading.....

HEBREWS 1:1 God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

It was God the Father who spoke to the Prophets of the Old testament, it was only in the days of the Apostles that God began speaking through his Son, Christ, because Christ had not even been in existence before this. The last part of verse two is not correctly translated. In many English translations it says "by whom also he made the words", which is why many believe it was Christ who did the creating. A more correct translation would be "through (dia) whom he makes (poieo) the ages to come (eons)". It is speaking of the coming Kingdom of God, not the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, just as Christ said His Kingdom was not of the this age (eon).

All throughout the old testament it states again and again it was Yahweh who did the creating, (remember, any time you see the word LORD or GOD in capitals in your bible, it is translated from the Hebrew word Yahweh, who is God the Father)...

Ex 20:11 For [in] six days the LORD (Yahweh) made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them [is], and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

1Ch 16:26 For all the gods of the people [are] idols: but the LORD made the heavens.

Now that is is clear that it was God the father who did the creating, read John 1 again, to see that this first passage is talking of God the Father....

JOHN 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Christ is not mentioned until verse 14....

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Christ was not Yahweh, the very word itself means the Eternal, self-existent one. Christ died for our sins, he was a mortal man, not eternal. Our sins demanded a death penalty be paid, and that penalty was most assuredly paid. Christ died, and he was dead for three days and three nights. God cannot die, but the resurrected Christ is now God (Elohim). His disciples did not call him God until after his resurrection...

Jn 20:26 . And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: [then] came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace [be] unto you.
27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

What most do not understand is that the same is promised to the faithful....

1John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Christ was the first fruits, the first fruits of the first harvest. People may think that is heresy, but it actually says it in your Bible, that we too are to inherit all things, but we have NOT YET done so....

HEBREWS 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honor, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Remember only God can be worshiped, now read this passage, and what is contained in it, something that is overlooked by 99.99999% of those who read it, remember this is being said to the church....

REVELATION 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

I'll state that again... "TO COME AND WORSHIP BEFORE YOUR FEET". Only God can be worshiped, just as God the father told the Angels to worship his Son, we too have the opportunity to become Son's of God, and be one day placed higher than the Angels (Hebrews 2:6-8) , and part of Yahweh's family,which is what Elohim is, the family of God, a uni-plural word.

Only God the Father (Yahweh) has eternally existed, and just as He said in the days of Isaiah (Isaiah 45), at that point, He was one, and none were beside Him, the were no Elohim beside Him, now there is one Elohim beside Him, his Son, who is now Elohim, our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

What I have said is heresy to some, but it's all in your Bible.

Anyway, when it comes to the pre-existence of Jesus, there are many verses that can be twisted to fit this view, but the single glaring passage in Isaiah cannot be disputed, it explains quite clearly, and more than once mind you as to drive the point home, that God the father was ONE, and there was no other Gods (Elohim, which would now include Jesus Christ) beside him.....

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.
.

[edit on 14/5/09 by doctorex]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 09:11 AM
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reply to post by dthwraith
 





After some research on this I found out this is watchtower doctrine from the JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES. Which I do not except, I'm glad I looked into this before I completly bought into it! I'll leave you all with my responce and after that I wont be coming back to debate it.


This is a baffling response, just because a certain religion teaches something in regard to a singular belief structure, it must be wrong???

Isn't that a form of prejudice that stifles intellectual mediation on scripture?

There are more and more Christians that are studying this and understanding it, they are considered to be Unitarians compared to Trinatarians.

If you want to continue to be tricked by a bunch of old men from the forth century that were influenced by a Pagan Emperor at the Council of Niceae, that's your choice.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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reply to post by doctorex
 

The Greek word translated as "with" does not exactly mean that. A more correct translation would be unto, as in "belonging to". If John was saying that the word was "with" God, he would have used the Greek word "meta", which he used elsewhere in the book, such as John 3:26 (And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, He Who was with(meta) you on the other side of the Jordan, to Whom you have testified, lo! this One is baptizing and all are coming to Him") or John 6:3 (Now Jesus came up into the mountain, and there He sat with (meta) His disciples.)
The opposite of your statement is more likely to be true. Pros, as used in John 1:1, has a more personal meaning than to just be in close proximity of something.
From The Apologists Commentery:

In Koine Greek pros (short for prosôpon pros prosôpon, "face to face") was used to show intimacy in personal relationships

Do you really think it is the Almighty God who does everything, physically in person, in the Old Testament?
In the time of Jesus, the Jews would look at something that says, "Jehovah is our savior, God will save us." and state it in understandable language as something like, "God has told us He will save us, and The Word will save us." What they believed was that there was this all-powerful God and what he determined would happen would be completed by the fact that it was said by Him. The word of God would go forth and actually carry it out. They personified it to a certain extent by having it as something of a god. They may have overstepped their qualifications as interpreters and John seems to be fixing the problem in the prologue to his gospel. He says that they are the same thing.
Let me give a simple example:

Not for thy righteousness, or for the uprightness of thine heart, dost thou go to possess their land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee, and that he may perform the word which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Here you have Jehovah give the promise, and God does the actual work of carrying out the promise. Are Jehovah and God two separate individuals? Depends on how you define individual.
John takes up a position on it. We have all these promises to David and others about a future Messiah. Then we have the actual carrying out of it. That is the Word, who does it, and corresponds to the second "person" in the mind of the Jews who were there on the ground, waiting for his appearance. John was telling them, Here is your Word, but it is not like you think. He is in no way less God than the God who sent him.


[edit on 14-5-2009 by jmdewey60]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:21 PM
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Interesting thread. Jesus does say if you have seen Him you have seen the Father. So, did God manifest Himself to be our Savior? Was it God's own spirit that took the form of a man and walked among us? That is a pretty amazing thing if so. But if Jesus is actually His Son in the the true sense of the word, then that is every bit amazing, because who, besides Almighty God, could give His own Son as He did? I don't dwell on it anymore I assume God will make it known to me if need be. But I enjoy reading the different theories.



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:31 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60

Then Explain this.....

ISAIAH 45:5 I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else, there is no God (Elohim) beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD (Yahweh), and there is none else.

Jesus prayed to his father, Jesus was not his father, and His father said before the birth of Jesus birth that he was One, and that there was none beside him. So where was Jesus, if Yahweh said there was none beside him, yet you say He was "with" God before his birth.?If Jesus was Yahweh, then where was God the Father, if Jesus said there was none beside him?

Can the Eternal God die? Then who died for your sins?

[edit on 14/5/09 by doctorex]



posted on May, 14 2009 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by Bombeni
 

So, did God manifest Himself to be our Savior?
When he was born, Jesus was nominally the Son of God and was of a consciousness of the active doing part of God. When he was twelve, he realized that he was on a mission. When he met his cousin on the Jordan it became clearer what the mission involved, seeing as his elder was stepping aside to give him the preeminence. He was filled with the spirit of God at his baptism. He went into the wilderness to meditate on his future and gained further understanding. On the Mount of transfiguration, he was able to put what he knew into a better context. And onward. . .
What Doctor X said above about Jesus being the first fruit of the life to come, is an undeniable fact. Jesus, though being the likeness and representation and inherent state of Being God, has an evolutionary process to undergo and at each point, his Heavenly Father is there to give his approval.
There is a reason for this and it is not just some arbitrary thing imposed upon him. For Jesus to fulfill everything, he had to start over from the lowest position possible and eventually gains on his own ability, the position that he already had, before he was born. The difference is, that as he was before purely in the form of God, he is now in the form of a man. Because we have this great person in heaven to represent us, we can set as a goal to be like him.



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