The pre-creation existence of Jesus

Originally posted by jmdewey60

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Believe what you want JM, it's not China yet. I don't care anymore. If you want to live under the Old Covenant be my guest.

The Old Covenant was: I will be your God, and you will be my people.
Jesus brings everyone who will, into that family of God.
The Sabbath is the symbol of the covenant that binds us to the Creator.
The blood of Jesus is the surety of that covenant, and what brings us into it. The New Covenant takes affect in his kingdom, and while that is yet to come, there remains for us a Sabbath rest.
The Old Covenant brings us into the New Covenant and it was Christs perfect priesthood working though the Old, typified in the ceremonial law of Moses but originating in the Abrahamic covenant, that makes our place in it sure, that we have by faith in that blood.

You're 100% correct, keeping the Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant also has an identifying sign.

It's called BAPTISM.

But like I said and I don't think you heard me, I'm over this argument with you, partake of any Covenant you wish. It's your life.

reply to post by jmdewey60

The New Covenant takes affect in his kingdom, and while that is yet to come, there remains for us a Sabbath rest.

Hogwash JM, Jeremiah 31:31-33 says the Old Covenant will pass away and be replaced with a New Covenant. Hebrews 8:12-13 verified that the Old Covenant had passed away and we were already in the New Covenant with God.

This happened 2,000 years ago, we have been in the New Covenant for quite some time.

Why do you think the Word lies? Why do you claim 'Paul is not a liar', then outright REJECT 70% of what the man wrote in his letters to the churches??

It's written in simple English that we are under a New Covenant with God and the old is passed away right there in Hebrews 8:12-13.

I could care less what you believe, but don't lie and claim the New Covenant will happen some time in the future when Paul plainly states it has already come to pass in Hebrews 8:12-13. It's complete hogwash, stop lying.

The Greek word for "vanish away" in verse 13 is: aphanismos which is a PAST TENSE word meaning two things. Either DISAPPEARED or DESTROYED.

Case closed JM.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

You're 100% correct, keeping the Sabbath is the sign of the Old Covenant. The New Covenant also has an identifying sign.

It's called BAPTISM.

But like I said and I don't think you heard me, I'm over this argument with you, partake of any Covenant you wish. It's your life.

It is entering into the New Covenant by faith. By faith we have all the benefits that come with that world to come. So baptism is a sign that we believe in something that we do not have physical proof of and in something that is yet to make its appearance.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The Greek word for "vanish away" in verse 13 is: aphanismos which is a PAST TENSE word meaning two things. Either DISAPPEARED or DESTROYED.

It is not possible to make a comparison to other uses of this word in the Bible because it is only found this one time.
The way to understand its use in this verse is to look at the word before it, meaning "getting ready to".
How would it be getting ready to disappear it has already done so?
It couldn't have.
How it is getting ready to disappear is by the gospel being preached and people being brought to repentance and belief in their own salvation through Christ.

Addition: look at Hebrews 8:6
The new covenant is based on better promises. Notice that it is promises. It is the expectation of a better life in the next world. Go ahead and show where we receive the promises in this life.


[edit on 8-11-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

The Greek word for "vanish away" in verse 13 is: aphanismos which is a PAST TENSE word meaning two things. Either DISAPPEARED or DESTROYED.

It is not possible to make a comparison to other uses of this word in the Bible because it is only found this one time.
The way to understand its use in this verse is to look at the word before it, meaning "getting ready to".
How would it be getting ready to disappear it has already done so?
It couldn't have.
How it is getting ready to disappear is by the gospel being preached and people being brought to repentance and belief in their own salvation through Christ.

Addition: look at Hebrews 8:6
The new covenant is based on better promises. Notice that it is promises. It is the expectation of a better life in the next world. Go ahead and show where we receive the promises in this life.

Alright, I'll play ur game, let's go back further than that in the same verse where it says God has made a new covenant. Does it say "He shall make" or "He hath made"?

It says "he hath made". The words "hath" and "made" are past tense, not future tense.

You're wrong.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Baptism is signing on to the New Covenant with God. Would you like verses?

Circumcision was signing on to the Old Covenant with God.

And yet still you have failed to acknowledge that "New Testament" both means "New Covenant" and "New Law" according to both Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica.

You've wrong JM, join in the New Covenant with us, it's wonderful to be free. Jesus only has one commandment for us now instead of 619.

John 15:12

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

reply to post by NOTurTypical
I think it is kindof funny to be using the enciclopedia to make your argument.
My objective is not to enslave anyone in some outdated system because that misses the point, which is that the same standards apply whether you are in the old or the new. There is no freedom in Christ from the law. There is freedom in Christ from the punishment for not perfectly obeying the law. The old sacrificial system with animals has been rendered obsolete. There is a better sacrifice, but the better law is just a better understanding of the spiritual law that should be working in men through the Holy Spirit. The moral law is the ten commandments. These are summarized in the gospel by Jesus as loving God and loving others. The point being, to show the spirit behind the law, not to render the law of no affect by making a newer more fun version that eliminates any actual doing anything.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
And yet still you have failed to acknowledge that "New Testament" both means "New Covenant" and "New Law" according to both Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica.

You've wrong JM, join in the New Covenant with us, it's wonderful to be free. Jesus only has one commandment for us now instead of 619.

John 15:12

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you."

Check your verses dude! Jesus did not eliminate the other commandments when adding this one. Does this mean we no longer have to love God, or that we are allowed to worship idols? Can we swear to God now? Can we disrespect our parents? Can we murder? Can we steal? Can we lie? Can we commit adultery? Can we covet? Hmmm? Did I leave one of the commandments out? There's a 4th commandment between the "swearing" and "obeying parents" commands. Can you please tell me what it is? Note that 619 is the number of laws. Of those laws, TEN of them are COMMANDMENTS which are spiritual and active laws. They are the moral laws which you speak about. Why do you leave out the 4th of these commandments? Jesus said to love one another as He loved us but it's just a summary of the last 6 commandments toward your neighbor. It is part of the Great commandment and Golden rule. Love God and Love your neighbor. These two great commandments summarize the entire Ten Commandments. This does not exclude the sabbath.

I also see you're still stuck on the whole "leaveing your house" on the sabbath thing. Note that Jews left their homes to go into the synagogues to worship and that there was outside activity on the sabbaths in the OT and NT. Does this mean the Jews were breaking the sabbath? A jew today would laugh in your face. It's a time of rest, worship, and doing God's will. We are the body of Christ so our hands and feet should be moving. The sabbath commandment does not limit this.

reply to post by jmdewey60
Okay JM, okay, you win. This debate will rage for 100 pages.

If you want to worship Saturday, I have no issues with that, I don't care what day of the week you worship with other believers.

reply to post by Locoman8


Hey, if you wish to practice Judaism and do as they do go for it Loco, I don't care.

The quote where Jesus is speaking about the "greatest commandment" He says that ALL the commandments hinge upon 2. 1. Love God with all your soul, heard, and mind and 2. Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you are doing any of the things you mentioned you are violating one of those 2 commandments.

Jesus gives us 1 commandment to follow, it's in John chapter 15.

And what does Paul say in Galatians 5:14??

"The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

Paul also speaks to Christians who try to be justified by following the law:

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, WHOSOEVER of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

I thank God through His Son Jesus Christ that I'm under the covenant of grace!!!!

I suggest for like the 10th time you read Galatians. It was written to people like you.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I urge you to read 2 Peter. It's written for people like you. Here's something for you. I'm gonna show you where the sabbath was followed by the first century church and even when the Holy Days were celebrated by the first century church. Remember that they are no longer Jews by faith.... they are christians. And our new covenant is indeed an "extention" of the old covenant. The old covenant, as explained earlier, was simply this, "I shall be your God and you shall be My people." The Israelites disobeyed God so His new covenant extends beyond Israel and through faith, welcomes anyone who hears His words, claims Jesus as Lord and Savior, repents, gets baptized, and gets filled with the Holy Spirit. The Laws, specifically the commandments, were not exclusive to Israel's Old Covenant.



Some people believe that, since the Sabbath commandment isn't explicitly repeated in the New Testament, it is no longer binding. But is this true?

The Sabbath commandment did not have to be repeated in the New Testament, simply because the people to whom Jesus Christ and the apostles preached would never have imagined that it needed to be repeated!

The Scriptures that would later be called the Old Testament were their Bible, their guide for living (Romans 15:4). Paul described them as being "given by inspiration of God, and . . . profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17). The Holy Scriptures clearly commanded them to keep the Sabbath, and the common people accepted that as God's inspired instruction.

Jesus Christ and the apostles lived and taught in a Sabbath-keeping society. Jesus' confrontations with the Pharisees were over how to observe the Sabbath, never over whether to observe it.

When the apostles took their message beyond the confines of Judea, Sabbath observance was well known in other parts of the Roman Empire. Notice, for example, what the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, writing during the New Testament period, said: "The multitude of mankind itself have had a great inclination for a long time to follow our religious observances; for there is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come . . . As God himself pervades all the world, so hath our law passed through all the world also" (Against Apion, Book 2, chap. 40).

The examples of Jesus and the apostles confirm that they believed in and obeyed all of the Ten Commandments. Throughout the book of Acts—written by Luke, a gentile —the Sabbath and the annual Sabbaths described in Leviticus 23 are mentioned quite routinely (Acts 13:14, 42, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4, 21; 20:6, 16; 27:9). Whether to observe them simply wasn't a question.

If the Sabbath had been abolished in the New Testament, shouldn't we find numerous passages throughout the New Testament making that clear? After all, the abolishing of one of God's Ten Commandments would certainly require nothing less!

Jesus Christ said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law" until all is "fulfilled," or has completely filled its purpose (Matthew 5:18). Various passages, including entire chapters of the New Testament, make clear the spiritual purpose behind such practices as animal sacrifices and temple worship (Hebrews 7:11-19; 8:1-6; 9:1-15; 10:1-18).

But God's commandments remain. The last books written in the New Testament were, around A.D. 85-95, John's epistles and, about the year 95, the book of Revelation. Were the Ten Commandments abolished by that time? Notice the words of John, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 21:7, 20): "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4).

John defined sin as the violation of God's laws. "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness," he wrote (1 John 3:4).

He knew that God's law was a law of love, defining both our love for others and our love for God: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:2-3).

The intent of God's law from the beginning was love, as Jesus taught: "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it" (2 John 6).

The book of Revelation, divinely inspired by Jesus Christ Himself (Revelation 1:1), also upholds keeping God's commandments. In Revelation 12:17, describing events shortly before Jesus' return, Satan attempts to destroy members of God's Church, "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

In Revelation 14:12, the saints are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Faith and keeping God's commandments go hand in hand, as Paul stated earlier (Romans 3:31).

In the last chapter of the Bible, Jesus Christ gave a final message to the Church: "'Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work...' Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city" (Revelation 22:12, 14).

Clearly God's law is not abolished in the New Testament.


Jesus Himself set an example for us (1 John 2:6) in observing the sacred festivals commanded in the Holy Scriptures (Matthew 26:17; Mark 1:21; Luke 4:16, 31; John 7:8-10, 14, 37). His apostles and their converts, walking in His footsteps and following His example, continued observing the same festivals (Acts 2:1; 12:2-4; 16:13; 18:4, 19, 21; 20:6; 27:9; 1 Corinthians 5:7-8). The Encyclopaedia Britannica (13th edition), under "Festivals," states that it is "abundantly clear that Christ and His disciples observed the appointed Jewish feasts."

Prophecy reveals that God will require the whole world to observe these same biblical festivals in the future. For example, Zechariah prophesies that God will require people to attend the Feast of Tabernacles after Christ returns (Zechariah 14:16). Isaiah prophesies that people of all lands will regularly keep the weekly Sabbath during Christ's millennial reign (Isaiah 66:23). Isaiah and Micah prophesy of that time: "Many nations shall come and say, 'Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths.' For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem" (Micah 4:2; compare Isaiah 2:3).

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I urge you to read 2 Peter. It's written for people like you.

Sure, I read it this morning, I have no problem reading verses or scripture that you suggest I read.

2 Peter addressed false teachings and false doctrines, in particular the Gnostic teachings and the "Antinomian" philosophies. I agree with Peter, both are heretical. Gnostics taught that IN ADDITION to believing in Christ and His redemptive work, one must also receive the "gnosis" or esoteric knowledge (see. Colossians 2:8-23). Peter sets the record straight in 1:16-21 by stressing the fact that we have already received the true knowledge.

And Antinomians believed that since salvation was by grace alone, the requirements of the moral law are irrelevant. And Peter devotes the entire 2nd chapter to attacking their carnal sinful lifestyles that those who held this belief had. From Hebrews, through Revelation the sins of the flesh are condemned, no one is arguing we can continue to live in the flesh, carnally. And I don't see how one could live carnally and keep Christ's commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves. If anyone steals, lies, commits fornication, adultery, etc, then they aren't treating their neighbor as they would like to be treated.

I don't know why you think I should read 2 Peter, I have never said it was okay to live in this manner. Nor do I think it is, for one, Christians should not live in a way that is a stumbling block for another person, and a Christian should love their neighbors and treat everyone they way they'd like to be treated.

Here's something for you. I'm gonna show you where the sabbath was followed by the first century church and even when the Holy Days were celebrated by the first century church. Remember that they are no longer Jews by faith.... they are christians.

Cool, this will make history.

And our new covenant is indeed an "extention" of the old covenant.

Not it isn't, it's a brand new covenant. Jeremiah 31:31-33 is a prophecy saying there will be a new covenant with man someday, and the old will disappear/vanish away/be destroyed. Hebrews 8:12-13 states that it came to pass, prophecy fulfilled, the old vanished away, disappeared, and was destroyed.

The old covenant, as explained earlier, was simply this, "I shall be your God and you shall be My people."

The old covenant had 619 commandments, also the old covenant had "two" signatories through circumcision, God and the Jews. Gentiles were not allowed into the old covenant unless they entered into the covenant via circumcision and following the 619 old covenant laws. Anytime a covenent was made, it was entered into by two parties and was binding to only those parties who entered into it.

The Israelites disobeyed God so His new covenant extends beyond Israel and through faith, welcomes anyone who hears His words, claims Jesus as Lord and Savior, repents, gets baptized, and gets filled with the Holy Spirit.

You just made that entirely up, Jesus fulfilled the old covenant and the new covenant was offered to all men through His work, His righteousness. (See Hebrews 5:12-21, 2 Corinthians 3:13, ) God began a new covenant with man when Christ died on the cross and He left the Holy of Holies. Covenants were sealed with blood, the old with the blood of circumcision, the new with the blood of Christ.

The Laws, specifically the commandments, were not exclusive to Israel's Old Covenant.

The Bible says otherwise Loco: (Deuteronomy 4:7-8, 5:3)

Old Covenant compared to the New Covenant

The Sabbath commandment did not have to be repeated in the New Testament, simply because the people to whom Jesus Christ and the apostles preached would never have imagined that it needed to be repeated!

Jesus only gives one commandment for the New covenant. (John chapter 15)

Jesus Christ and the apostles lived and taught in a Sabbath-keeping society. Jesus' confrontations with the Pharisees were over how to observe the Sabbath, never over whether to observe it.

OF COURSE he had to keep the law, if He broke it He would have been a sinner therefore His death wouldn't have meant ANYTHING. He had to keep the Old Law to fulfill it silly!!!!! And that is precisely what he said he was going to do... FULFILL it. How many more times do I need to say the fact that Jesus never commanded His apostles to evangelize CHRISTIANITY till after His resurrection!!! When the Lord was alive He practiced JUDAISM. lol

If the Sabbath had been abolished in the New Testament, shouldn't we find numerous passages throughout the New Testament making that clear?

There ARE numerous passages throughout the NT stating the Old Law was passed away. (See above link) Not to mention those verses, Paul also plainly states in Galatians that if we keep Christ's one commandment to love on another, we by default keep the entire Old laws.

Jesus Christ said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law" until all is "fulfilled," or has completely filled its purpose (Matthew 5:18).

You "added" that last part, Christ said not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until the entire Law be fulfilled. Then he went on to say that He came to fulfill. And when He was on the cross He proclaimed "It is finished!"

Various passages, including entire chapters of the New Testament, make clear the spiritual purpose behind such practices as animal sacrifices and temple worship (Hebrews 7:11-19; 8:1-6; 9:1-15; 10:1-18).

Yeah, and they ALL POINTED to Christ and what he would do in His life and death.

But God's commandments remain. The last books written in the New Testament were, around A.D. 85-95, John's epistles and, about the year 95, the book of Revelation. Were the Ten Commandments abolished by that time? Notice the words of John, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 21:7, 20): "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4).

I agree, and Jesus only gives 1 commandment. (John 15) And Paul says in Galatians that if we keep the Lord's commandment, we keep the entire 619 commandments of Jesus's Father.

He knew that God's law was a law of love, defining both our love for others and our love for God: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:2-3).

And Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and if you love your neighbor as yourself you keep His commandments. And I agree, His 1 commandment for the new covenant is EXTREMELY un-burdensome. I couldn't agree more with John.

The intent of God's law from the beginning was love, as Jesus taught: "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it" (2 John 6).

I agree, we should walk in love towards everyone, even our enemies. And by doing so, we keep all the Father's commandments from the Old Covenant.

The book of Revelation, divinely inspired by Jesus Christ Himself (Revelation 1:1), also upholds keeping God's commandments. In Revelation 12:17, describing events shortly before Jesus' return, Satan attempts to destroy members of God's Church, "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Are you aware that Jesus is God?

In Revelation 14:12, the saints are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Faith and keeping God's commandments go hand in hand, as Paul stated earlier (Romans 3:31).

I agree!!! Now what does Paul say in Galatians?? That if we keep the 1 commandment given by Jesus Christ we keep all the Father's 619 Commandments.

Clearly God's law is not abolished in the New Testament.

However, you refuse to admit that the Father's commandments, all of them, are fulfilled when we love our neighbor as ourselves. When we love, we keep the commandments.

The Encyclopaedia Britannica (13th edition), under "Festivals," states that it is "abundantly clear that Christ and His disciples observed the appointed Jewish feasts."

I'm glad they did, if the Lord hadn't kept them he would have been a lawbreaker under the Old Covenant and thus He would have died in vain, and we'd never have the covenant of grace we share today. Thank God the Lord followed the Law!!!!!

Prophecy reveals that God will require the whole world to observe these same biblical festivals in the future. For example, Zechariah prophesies that God will require people to attend the Feast of Tabernacles after Christ returns (Zechariah 14:16).

I think we should, today's holidays are all pagan ones. I admire God's feasts. Interesting point to note though, certain feasts are impossible to keep and have been so since 70 AD when the tabernacle was destroyed.

Isaiah prophesies that people of all lands will regularly keep the weekly Sabbath during Christ's millennial reign (Isaiah 66:23).

We need God's tabernacle to do this. Hellooooooo. It hasn't been with man since 70 AD. It will however be here again when the Lord is here. It will be built very soon. Kinda need that to observe the feasts as God instructed.



[edit on 11-11-2009 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Jesus Christ said that "one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law" until all is "fulfilled," or has completely filled its purpose (Matthew 5:18).

You "added" that last part, Christ said not one jot or tittle would pass from the Law until the entire Law be fulfilled[/color=red]. Then he went on to say that He came to fulfill. And when He was on the cross He proclaimed "It is finished!"

On the contrary, I quoted the bible passage and then unquoted and added my commentary. You, however, without quoting the scripture, got your words mixed up.

17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

You see there at the end of verse 18? Nothing about all of the "Law" being fulfilled. He said "until ALL is fulfilled, that indicates that ALL of God's plan be fulfilled... not just the Old Covenant laws! You're putting words in Jesus' mouth.

But God's commandments remain. The last books written in the New Testament were, around A.D. 85-95, John's epistles and, about the year 95, the book of Revelation. Were the Ten Commandments abolished by that time? Notice the words of John, "the disciple whom Jesus loved" (John 21:7, 20): "Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, 'I know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" (1 John 2:3-4).

I agree, and Jesus only gives 1 commandment. (John 15) And Paul says in Galatians that if we keep the Lord's commandment, we keep the entire 619 commandments of Jesus's Father.

Jesus' commandment to love one another as He loved us, is not the only commandment Jesus spoke or gave. How about the rich man who asked Jesus what he should do to enter the kingdom?

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?”
17 So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
18 He said to Him, “Which ones?”
Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19 ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’”
20 The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?”
21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

So Jesus is here confirming the Ten Commandments being the very commandments spoken of throughout the new testament... not just the single commandment given in John. He didn't mention the first four commandments because those were typical ways of life for Jews. There was no problem with them serving only One God or to refrain from Idolatry, or from taking the Lord's name in vain or from keeping the Sabbath. The issue here was that people had a misconception on how to treat your neighbor because one simple slip-up urged the authorities to stone, crucify, or other means of execution for law-breakers. They added ordinances to the Sabbath laws and decievingly found ways to make people guilty of law-breaking through their over-burdensom man-made additions to God's laws. This is why Jesus began with the last 6 commandments. They are the commandments showing love to your neighbor if followed.

He knew that God's law was a law of love, defining both our love for others and our love for God: "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" (1 John 5:2-3).

And Jesus was God manifest in the flesh, and if you love your neighbor as yourself you keep His commandments. And I agree, His 1 commandment for the new covenant is EXTREMELY un-burdensome. I couldn't agree more with John.

You don't think it's you looking at this the wrong way? John said it himself that LOVE is keeping God's commandments and that those commandments are not burdensome. By following the one commandment of Jesus, you automatically follow all TEN commandments. It's not that following the single Jesus commandment makes you free of following the Ten Commandments. If you follow the Ten commandments, you are following the Jesus commandment. Just as the Golden Rule and Great Commandment define the entire Ten Commandments. They are summaries of the Ten Commandments. The New Testament doesn't free you from the Ten Commandments. It actually increases the law of the Ten Commandments. (Don't commit adultery, but don't LUST over another person either). (Don't murder, but don't hate your brother either).... and so on.

The intent of God's law from the beginning was love, as Jesus taught: "This is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, that as you have heard from the beginning, you should walk in it" (2 John 6).

I agree, we should walk in love towards everyone, even our enemies. And by doing so, we keep all the Father's commandments from the Old Covenant.

I disagree with your statement. You have it backwards. By following the Ten Commandments the way they were intended to be followed, you automatically walk in love with everyone.. God, family, neighbor, and enemy.

The book of Revelation, divinely inspired by Jesus Christ Himself (Revelation 1:1), also upholds keeping God's commandments. In Revelation 12:17, describing events shortly before Jesus' return, Satan attempts to destroy members of God's Church, "who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Are you aware that Jesus is God?

I'm aware that Jesus is the Jehovah of the OT but He is not the Father. So the commandments of God (Father) and testimony of Jesus Christ (Son) is a following of the Old and New Testament faiths combined.

In Revelation 14:12, the saints are described as "those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Faith and keeping God's commandments go hand in hand, as Paul stated earlier (Romans 3:31).

I agree!!! Now what does Paul say in Galatians?? That if we keep the 1 commandment given by Jesus Christ we keep all the Father's 619 Commandments.

I'll talk to you about galatians on my next post. No room on this one.

Clearly God's law is not abolished in the New Testament.

However, you refuse to admit that the Father's commandments, all of them, are fulfilled when we love our neighbor as ourselves. When we love, we keep the commandments.

Once again, you have it backwards. If you keep the commandments, you fulfill the meaning of love. If you love your neighbor you will not murder, steal, lie, disrespect parents, commit adultery, or covet your neighbor's posessions. All of these things are the last 6 commandments. They simply are summed up with "Love your neighbor as yourselves." You keep leaving out the Great Commandments "Love God" which is summarized by the first four commandments. Even the Sabbath since He sanctified it and made it Holy. We are taught not to desolate holy things... including days.

Isaiah prophesies that people of all lands will regularly keep the weekly Sabbath during Christ's millennial reign (Isaiah 66:23).

We need God's tabernacle to do this. Hellooooooo. It hasn't been with man since 70 AD. It will however be here again when the Lord is here. It will be built very soon. Kinda need that to observe the feasts as God instructed.

You do not need the temple/tabernacle to honor the Sabbath. The law is clear that it is a Holy convication/day of worship as well as a day of rest. No need for a temple or tabernacle for you to do this. And if the weekly sabbath is kept during the millennial reign of Christ, shouldn't Christians be practicing this future law on a weekly basis? This gives a clue that the Sabbath was never done away with through the New Covenant since it will be part of the "future fulfillment" of ALL things mentioned in Matthew 5:18!

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Locoman8

 

I suggest for like the 10th time you read Galatians. It was written to people like you.

Did Paul's Words to the Galatians Contradict His Actions?
One common interpretation of the book of Galatians is that Paul criticized the Galatians for keeping the biblical Sabbath and Holy Days. Many theologians believe these were the days to which Paul referred when he wrote: "How is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years" (Galatians 4:9-10).

Is Paul criticizing observing the Sabbath and Holy Days here? The book of Acts provides important facts showing this clearly wasn't the case.

Paul visited several cities within the Roman province of Galatia (in what is today central Turkey) during his first journey around A.D. 46-48. He wrote his epistle to the Galatians at some point after that journey.

But notice what Luke records in Acts 13 concerning Paul's actions during his actual visit to Antioch in Pisidia, a region in the province of Galatia:

• Paul participates in Sabbath services at the local synagogue (verse 14).
• Paul, as a guest and scholar, teaches in the synagogue (verses 15-41).
• At the conclusion of the service, "the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath" (verse 42).
• When that next Sabbath arrived, "almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God" from Paul and Barnabas (verse 44).

If one assumes that Galatians 4:9-10 condemns Sabbath-keeping, an obvious question is, why would Paul teach gentiles and Jews on the Sabbath while visiting the Galatian churches and then, after departing, write a letter reprimanding them for observing the Sabbath day?

We should also ask, if Paul believed keeping the Sabbath and biblical Holy Days was "bondage," why didn't he take the opportunity to tell these Sabbath-keeping Jews and gentiles this when he had such a perfect opportunity?

When they "begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath," why didn't Paul simply tell them he would teach them the very next day—Sunday—or any other day? Instead, "almost the whole city came together" a week later to hear Paul and Barnabas—on the Sabbath day!

If in Galatians 4:9-10 Paul was attempting to condemn Sabbath-keeping as bondage, his actions as recorded in the book of Acts show that he was either very confused or very hypocritical. On the other hand, if we really understand the true intent of Paul's words, both his actions and words are consistent and make perfect sense.

Some view Galatians 4:9-10 as condemning Old Testament laws. In these verses Paul wrote: "But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? You observe days and months and seasons and years."

Those who argue against God's laws see Paul's reference to "days and months and seasons and years" as pointing to the Sabbath, festivals and sabbatical and jubilee years given in the Old Testament (Leviticus 23, 25). They view these God-given observances as the "weak and miserable principles" (NIV) to which the Galatians were "turn[ing] again" and becoming "in bondage" (verse 9).

Is this Paul's meaning?

There is an obvious problem with viewing these verses as being critical of the Sabbath, since the Sabbath is not even mentioned here. The term "Sabbath," "Sabbaths" and any related words do not even appear anywhere in the epistle to the Galatians.

To argue against keeping the Sabbath, some assume that the "years" referred to in Galatians 4:10 are the sabbatical and jubilee years described in Leviticus 25. However, the jubilee year was not being observed anywhere in Paul's day, and the sabbatical year was not being observed in areas outside Palestine (Encyclopaedia Judaica, Vol. 14, p. 582, and Jewish Encyclopedia, p. 666, "Sabbatical Year and Jubilee"). The fact that Galatia was in pagan Asia Minor, far outside the land of Israel, makes it illogical to imagine Paul could have been referring to the sabbatical and jubilee years.

The Greek words Paul used for "days and months and seasons and years" are used throughout the New Testament in describing normal, civil periods of time. They are totally different from the precise terms Paul used in Colossians 2:16 specifying the Sabbaths and festivals of God. He used exact terminology for biblical observances in Colossians, but used very different Greek words in Galatians—a clear indication that he was discussing altogether different subjects.

To understand what Paul meant, we must examine both the historic and immediate contexts of these verses.

The Galatians couldn't "turn again" to days they had never observed.

The Galatian churches were composed mostly of members from a gentile, rather than Jewish, background. Paul made it clear that they were physically uncircumcised (Galatians 5:2; 6:12-13), so they could not have been Jewish.

This background is important in understanding this controversial scripture. In Galatians 4:9-10, Paul said that the Galatians were "turn[ing] again to the weak and beggarly elements," which included "days and months and seasons and years." Since Paul's readers were from a gentile background, it is difficult to see how the "days and months and seasons and years" they were turning back to could be the Sabbath and other biblical festivals, since they could not "turn again" to something they had not previously observed.

This is made even clearer by the immediate context. In verse 8, Paul said, "When you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods." By this Paul referred "clearly to the idols of paganism, which, in typical Jewish idiom, Paul termed 'not gods'" (The Expositor's Bible Commentary, 1976, Vol. 10, p. 475).

Is it possible that these "weak and beggarly elements" they were returning to (verse 9) could be God's laws, Sabbaths and festivals? The word translated "elements" here is the Greek word stoicheia. What does it mean? The Expositor's Bible Commentary explains:

"It would seem that in Paul's time . . . stoicheia . . . referred to the sun, moon, stars, and planets—all of them associated with gods or goddesses and, because they regulated the progression of the calendar, also associated with the great pagan festivals honoring the gods. In Paul's view these gods were demons. Hence, he would be thinking of a demonic bondage in which the Galatians had indeed been held prior to the proclamation of the gospel . . .

"In the verses that follow, Paul goes on to speak of these three crucial subjects in quick succession: (1) 'those who by nature are not gods,' presumably false gods or demons; (2) 'those weak and miserable principles,' again stoicheia; and (3) 'days and months and seasons and years' (vv. 9, 10). No doubt Paul would think of these demons in ways entirely different from the former thinking of the Galatians . . . Thus, this whole issue takes on a cosmic and spiritual significance. The ultimate contrast to freedom in Christ is bondage to Satan and the evil spirits" (p. 472).

Superstitious observance of days and times

This is the context in which at least some of the Galatians were observing special "days and months and seasons and years." The word translated here as "observe" or "observing" is the Greek word paratereo, meaning "to watch closely, [or] observe narrowly" (W.E. Vine, Vine's Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1985, "Observation, Observe").

This word "seems to have the sense of 'anxious, scrupulous, well-informed observance in one's interest,' which . . . fit[s] regard for points or spans of time which are evaluated positively or negatively from the standpoint of the calendar or astrology" (Gerhard Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, 1995, Vol. 8, p. 148).

Whatever "days and months and seasons and years" the Galatians were observing, they were apparently observing them in a superstitious manner, as they had observed days and times before their conversion.

From the context, we see it is simply not logical to conclude that Paul was criticizing the observance of the biblical Sabbath and festivals, since they were not even mentioned anywhere in this epistle. Instead, he was attacking misguided efforts to attain salvation through unnecessary superstitious observances.

Paul tells them, "I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain" (verse 11). He was trying to prevent them from again becoming entangled in their former pagan practices.

The issue was not whether the law of God is good or bad. It was whether keeping that law can earn forgiveness of sin and eternal life and whether human effort can even meet God's requirements of true obedience. Paul's point was that by "works of the law" one earns nothing in regard to justification. The very idea that one could earn personal forgiveness and salvation is absurd.
The law defines sin and sets the penalty for it. That has never changed. But the law does not and cannot forgive sin. It provides no way to buy back or reclaim innocence after one commits sin.
So Paul explains that, once transgressions have been committed, it is futile to seek forgiveness and justification through the "works of the law"—because "as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them'" (Galatians 3:10).
Notice that the curse—the penalty of death—is placed on those who fail to do everything in the law. The law itself is not the curse. Death through disobedience of the law is.

As interesting as this discussion is, don't you think the last few pages of this thread should be in it's own thread as really it has nothing to do with the thread title. Something like "What parts of the Mosaic law are we still under?" For the record I adhere to the scripture in Ephesians 2: 13-15

13 But now through Christ Jesus you, who were once far away, have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 So he is our peace. In his body he has made Jewish and non-Jewish people one by breaking down the wall of hostility that kept them apart.
15 He brought an end to the commandments and demands found in Moses' Teachings so that he could take Jewish and non-Jewish people and create one new humanity in himself. So he made peace.

If a new thread is made I will say more.

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 12-11-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


You're right. It has gone off-topic. I would urge us to continue this conversation in my thread titled "Did Jesus' Teachings Abolish the Old Covenant."

some things in this life and the next we just cant conceive or even be close to even comprehending right now.

a reply to: miriam0566

After 6 years, I concede to you Ms. Miriam.... I agree that in fact, Jesus was not equal to God. Congrats on being right... Lol