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The *Evil* Masonic Plot - I Have Some Questions

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posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 03:12 PM
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So, I was just reading a thread asking why is Persephone on top of the white house (it's actually the capitol building), and that thread had several comments regarding the Satanic/Luciferian/Masonic conspiracy in America. I have seen many comments and lengthy diatribes against this Luciferian Masonic conspiracy before, in addition to numerous threads elucidating the Masonic layout of Washington DC incorporating an inverted pentagram. If that's the evidence for an evil Masonic plot, it implies there were nefarious intentions at the outset of America's founding. And I just don't get it.

For brevity's sake, I'll concede there was a conspiracy surrounding the founding of America. I'll even concede it was Masonic in nature (for brevity's sake). But it seems the conspiracy was to overthrow the monarchy in favor of establishing a nation built on the tenets of liberty and freedom. Is that not a noble goal? Which is why I don't get it, leaving me with many questions:

a) Is it that anti-Masons (as I've seen them called here) disagree with the idea behind the American Revolution being noble in nature (if lacking 100% in execution)? It seems to me that, logically, if the Masons are at the root of the founding of America, and Masons are evil and Satanic in nature, then one would have to conclude that the founding of America is therefore steeped in Satanic evil. If so, would you further conclude that the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, etc. are Satanic documents? If so, why do you bother? What is it you're trying to uphold or accomplish?

b) Or, if you do agree that the idea behind America's creation was noble in some way, then how did the Enlightenment era Freemasons of America's founding become equated with the more modern idea of Illuminati/Masons as the embodiment of evil striving for an oppressive one world police state? Did they become evil over time or... what? Admittedly, I'm not well versed on the history of the Freemasons, so I could be a bit naïve about the whole thing.

c) Is this idea of the evil nature behind the Masonic conspiracy mostly due to the symbolism employed by Freemasons, which is undoubtedly esoteric and pagan even. I guess if one is a fundamentalist or maybe literalist evangelical Christian I can see how it could be construed as being *evil*. Which leads me to wonder...

d) How many anti-Masons are fundamentalist and/or literalist evangelical Christians? It's not a judgment, it just would help me better understand.

Don't get me wrong, somewhere along the way I'd say America as a nation definitely took a detour. But, to me, the idea behind America's creation was the opposite of oppression and evil, and so I am having a hard time reconciling this with the idea of the *evil Masonic plot* that seems so firmly entrenched in many conspiracy minded people. And I would genuinely like to understand, because the way I'm understanding it now (that many view the intentions of liberty/freedom at the outset of America's founding to be part of a nefarious, centuries long plot for one world domination) is a bit disturbing to me.

Thanks for any input.




posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 04:06 PM
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posted on Jan, 19 2009 @ 04:19 PM
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reply to post by Nameless Hussy
 


It may be more accurate to say that the formation of America was in opposition to tyranny. Define tyranny as "oppression and evil" if you like. The Founding Fathers wanted both freedom of religion and separation of church and state... radical ideas indeed when historical monarchies ruled on the basis of "divine right".

As a Mason who's posted actively on ATS for over a year, I would say that maybe ¼ to ½ of anti-Masons posting here do so from the fundamentalist point of view that you describe. Freemasonry may seem paradoxical in that it requires a belief in a supreme deity, but does not proscribe who or what that deity is. It was founded during the age of enlightenment and reason, which teaches us to question things, while at the same time admitting that a man in his life may never come to know all the answers he seeks. If one man worships Jesus and another the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and both their faiths are honestly intended, than what is Masonry to call either of them wrong? And as mere mortals, if neither of us can know who was right in our lifetime, why bicker about the unanswerable when there are more immediate issues that affect our lives, our families, our work or our communities?



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 10:35 AM
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Excellent thread! Thank you for these questions.



Originally posted by Nameless Hussy

a) Is it that anti-Masons (as I've seen them called here) disagree with the idea behind the American Revolution being noble in nature (if lacking 100% in execution)? It seems to me that, logically, if the Masons are at the root of the founding of America, and Masons are evil and Satanic in nature, then one would have to conclude that the founding of America is therefore steeped in Satanic evil. If so, would you further conclude that the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, etc. are Satanic documents? If so, why do you bother? What is it you're trying to uphold or accomplish?


I believe this is a misunderstanding on the part of anti-masons about what Freemasonry truly *is*.

I could go into a long-winded diatribe about the non-existence of Masonic 'dogma', but here is a link:

Allegory

Masonry IS:




A peculiar system of morality, veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols.


...and really nothing else. Freemasons in the 1700's in America certainly participated in large way in the Revolution, but the thought of creating a nation or founding a country for a particular purpose wasn't part of it.

The whole of Masonry today is a series of lessons that an individual person can apply to his life and his individual beliefs that emphasize love, relief, charity and truth. Beyond that there is no driving dogma or doctrine or religion in Freemasonry.

We believe all men are equals, none above the other.



b) Or, if you do agree that the idea behind America's creation was noble in some way...?


I don't believe the founding of America was planned in the least bit and definitely not by Masons. The causes for the Revolution were broad and widespread.

It is true that many came here for freedom from religious persecution, but upon arriving they found themselves dissatisfied with the oppressive British government that taxed them severely, yet didn't give them any say in how the taxes were spent.

I tend to cling to the romantic notion that there was a Masonic influence or spark to get things rolling. Far away from the opression of the Church or the King I can see how Masonic ideals like equality, fraternity, liberty might stir up people.

In the end though I think the creation of the American nation was a happy accident.




c) Is this idea of the evil nature behind the Masonic conspiracy mostly due to the symbolism employed by Freemasons, which is undoubtedly esoteric and pagan even. I guess if one is a fundamentalist or maybe literalist evangelical Christian I can see how it could be construed as being *evil*. Which leads me to wonder...


This is a resounding 'YES'.

I am a Christian and everything I have learned in Masonry has only solidified my faith since I joined.

The fundamentalist Christian ethic of today is exactly the kind of thinking that Christ abhorred. Jesus did not preach exclusivity or favoritism. Jesus taught us that the most important things we can do are to love our neighbor and to love God.

The reason Christians and other religions paint Masonry as evil is because we don't FORCE our members to be Christians and therefore that must be evil because any place you learn morality that doesn't worship Christ is bad.

It is my opinion (as a Christian, not a Mason) that starting with Paul the message of Christ became twisted and reworked. The Church further destroyed the message and used it for it's own benefit. By forcing the lower classes who were poor and illiterate to worship the Church and it's figurehead or they would be cast into eternal damnation they created a centuries-old bastardization of what Jesus promised.

When a fundamentalist (of any religion) hears that Masons say 'all people are equal' and 'the blessings of heaven and immortality are available to everyone' it threatens their hold on the populace and their power wanes. Therefore they paint us as evil.

I believe (again as a Christian) that Jesus didn't want us to worship HIM, He wanted us to worship and hold sacred His message. Love each other, Love God.




d) How many anti-Masons are fundamentalist and/or literalist evangelical Christians? It's not a judgment, it just would help me better understand.


It would be hard to say. We occasionally see each other outside the lodge at church or whatever, but it is impolite and considered a breach of Masonic etiquette to ask a brother about his religious beliefs.

I am a Methodist, for example, who was raised Baptist. I see a couple of my brothers at church on Sunday so I know they are Methodist and a couple of other guys have mentioned being Catholic, Jewish and Church of Christ.

I would be willing to bet that most American Freemasons are Christians, probably in the same ratio to the general population. I think we have a lot of Catholics too, but the Church doesn't like Masonry much.

For me, though, that is one thing that really attracted me to Freemasonry. All I was asked is whether I believe in God (or a Supreme Being). The nature of my belief was never questioned and I would never ask another Brother about his beliefs because it's divisive and takes away from our mission of equality and charity.

Also, despite popular characterizations, I don't personally know ANY masons who are politicians. Most of the guys I know are regular Joes who hold blue collar or office jobs. The demeanor of most of them tends to be fairly quiet, upbeat, polite and maybe even a little nerdy.

Thank you for these great questions. I think some Fundamentalists may have something to say and I hope they can provide another point of view.



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 12:18 PM
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excellent questions OP. let's assume that it was not some evil plan all along but that it morphed into what they consider a "necessary evil" to save the planet and human race. consider the analogy if there were 5 people in a life boat but only enough water for 2 to make it back to land. would they all decide to die or draw straws? maybe they are "casting lots" for us in absentia and sans permission for "our greater good".



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 02:49 PM
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reply to post by Nameless Hussy
 



Nameless Hussy,

I wanted to call your attention to the following, as it pertains to the purposes of this forum.:

This forum is for the discussion and speculation of conspiracy theories, scandals, secrets, cover-ups and related historical events involving secret societies and related groups. PARTICIPANTS MUST BE AWARE THIS FORUM IS UNDER RENEWED, VERY-CLOSE STAFF SCRUTINY. Discussion topics and follow-up responses in this forum will likely tend to lean in favor of conspiracies, scandals, and cover-ups. Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of AboveTopSecret.com's tradition of focusing on conspiracy theory, cover-ups, and scandals.

I would call special attention to the following:

***
Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of AboveTopSecret.com's tradition of focusing on conspiracy theory, cover-ups, and scandals.
***

What you are doing here is refuting an important conspiracy theory core to the Truth Movement. The fact that you are asking an honest question in an honest way would probably further infurate the leadership of the Truth Movement, because it is a powerful refutation of their position.

Basically what you are saying is that you should judge the tree by the fruit that it bears. The crux of your argument is this: that if America was built by the Masons, and America is good, that how could the tree of Masonry be evil, its fruit America being good? This is a potent point.

However, and I would reiterate:

Members who would seek to refute such theories should be mindful of AboveTopSecret.com's tradition of focusing on conspiracy theory, cover-ups, and scandals.

In other words, this is neither the time or the place for such refutations. It hurts the traditions of the Truth Movement to examine the truth in this manner.

They have DVD's to sell, and a web site to maintain, and the leadership's agenda is to have the Truth on the matter of the Illuminati and Masonry to be found to be a negative thing. Powerful refutations of this mindset are not part of the Truth Movement's agenda.

There is a powerful, opinionated minority who wish the Illuminati and the Masons to be exposed as evil, charletons, and imposters. ATS caters to this kind of individual.

Nameless Hussy, do you wish the food to be taken out of the mouths of the ATS staff? Do you want their livelyhood taken away? Then I would suggest being respectful of their decision in this matter to have certain refutatons not be presented.

It is not in the interests of the Truth Movement at this time for a disclosure of what you are talking about to happen at this time. It is contrary to their agenda, and since this is their House, I would ask you to be respectful of their wishes.

Thank you.



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 03:10 PM
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DOH!

I'm so stupid.

HAHA.


I get it now.

[edit on 1/21/09 by emsed1]



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 04:24 PM
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(A serene smile kind of plays upon Joan's mouth)

I didnt become what I have become by being a fool, emsed. Always remember that a content, well-fed people is easily ruled.

[edit on 21-1-2009 by JoanTheBlind]



posted on Jan, 21 2009 @ 07:56 PM
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Thanks for the responses everyone, very interesting and informative. I was hoping to hear from more "anti-Masons" because I still don't get it, and it seems to be such a deeply ingrained idea not just here, but amongst conspiracy theorists in general.


Originally posted by JoanTheBlind
There is a powerful, opinionated minority who wish the Illuminati and the Masons to be exposed as evil, charletons, and imposters.


I find this line of thought very interesting, and the more I read the more I'm becoming convinced of this myself. There is just too much concerning the "conspiracies" that are taken for granted (evil Masons, illuminati, alien reptilian overlords...) that just doesn't add up to me. Hence the questions. Oh well, hopefully more people who hold "anti-Mason" beliefs will respond. It can't really be nothing more than "when cognitive dissonance met scapegoating" can it?



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 02:07 AM
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You are very eloquent, JoanTheBlind.

I think you have touched on a subtle truth which is slowly, but surely, becoming less subtle.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 04:53 AM
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reply to post by Nameless Hussy
 


To plug a thread of mine here...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

I've been noticing something along the same lines recently. It's almost scary, really.

Pleas say something in it... I see some folks pushing the same or similar idea but... not enough to rough it out.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by RuneSpider]



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by JoanTheBlind
(A serene smile kind of plays upon Joan's mouth)

I didnt become what I have become by being a fool, emsed. Always remember that a content, well-fed people is easily ruled.

[edit on 21-1-2009 by JoanTheBlind]


Indeed.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 04:36 PM
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Originally posted by Saurus
I think you have touched on a subtle truth which is slowly, but surely, becoming less subtle.


Yes, but let us not hurry them. If that is the way that it is, they will come to a realization of that soon enough. And if we be wrong, then so be it.

Reminds me of the rather strange expression that's floating around these days "Slow is the new fast."



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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reply to post by JoanTheBlind
 


Nice.



not even close to a 1 liner.

three lines beeches.



posted on Jan, 22 2009 @ 08:14 PM
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Originally posted by Mason mike
reply to post by JoanTheBlind
 


Nice.



not even close to a 1 liner.

three lines beeches.



That was almost a haiku..




Look, I wrote three lines.

Not one, not two, but all THREE.

NOTHING TO SEE HERE.










It's all I could do on short notice! :-D



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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Originally posted by Nameless Hussy


Originally posted by JoanTheBlind
There is a powerful, opinionated minority who wish the Illuminati and the Masons to be exposed as evil, charletons, and imposters.


I find this line of thought very interesting, and the more I read the more I'm becoming convinced of this myself. There is just too much concerning the "conspiracies" that are taken for granted (evil Masons, illuminati, alien reptilian overlords...) that just doesn't add up to me. Hence the questions. Oh well, hopefully more people who hold "anti-Mason" beliefs will respond. It can't really be nothing more than "when cognitive dissonance met scapegoating" can it?


I wanted to apologize to the OP for possibly quenching this thread.

My point was more a long the lines of morfing the original OP into a more moderate viewpoint that could be tolerated in the current environment.

OK...

Given what you said in the original post, why do you think this way:

It can't really be nothing more than "when cognitive dissonance met scapegoating" can it?

In other words, what do you think the underlying dynamics of the Truth Movement (which BTW the "anti-Masons" like to be called The Truth Movement) are?

You have stated that it could be cognitive dissonance meets scapgoating. An interesting perspective, yet I beleive there to be other unseen forces in play.

Have you talked to those in the Truth Movement as to why they are pointing the finger at the Masons? I have found that through a respectful conversation with any being that you can come to understand much of where they are comming from?

But then this penetrates to the core of revolutionary movements from the Soviets in the early 20th Century, to the racism of Nazism, to the French Revolution, to the American Revolution.

What is the heart do you suppose of the Truth Movement's core tradition of pointing the finger of blaim at the leadership? In history this has often resulted in a coup, or a desire or ambition in the critisizing movement's to take power themselves.

What do you think is going on Nameless Hussy?



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:37 PM
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bah you speak of History, and lessons from the past....and here in these forums we'll have none of it!



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 07:59 PM
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Originally posted by ForkandSpoon
bah you speak of History, and lessons from the past....and here in these forums we'll have none of it!


Bah Humbug, huh, ForkandSpoon?

(Joan elbows ForkandSpool in the ribs)



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:21 PM
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Please stay focused on the topic of this thread and avoid thread drift people.


The *Evil* Masonic Plot - I Have Some Questions

Sauron
Moderator
Thank you



posted on Jan, 23 2009 @ 08:44 PM
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So if George Washington was a Mason, was God guiding him to become the founder of our country...yes. But God guides even those who are not saved and don't believe in Him to accomplish His will.

So are the Masons an evil organization, I really can't say, since I don't know much more about them then what I have read. But we are all evil to a certain extent. The difference is that Christians acknowledge that they are sinners, and through reading of the Word, and prayer, they can overcome many of the same sins that seem to trap most.

Besides, I don't think the Masons gather to do things that are considered taboo by most people, such as conspire to hurt/kill those who disagree with them, or practice human sacrifice like some groups do.



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