The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

reply to post by FiatLux


Good point Fiat.

I've always thought of Jesus's message in the Gospels being summed up as "Save yourselves."... Jesus teaches that through loving each other we can essentially be our own Saviors, the Savior is within each of us in the form of LOVE. At least that's my personal interpretation of it. Jesus is one of the only redeeming parts of the Bible IMO that makes the book not entirely BS.

If humanity stopped waiting for a Messiah and started taking responsibility for the "log in our own eye" and helping each other we could make some progress.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Good point Fiat.

I've always thought of Jesus's message in the Gospels being summed up as "Save yourselves."... Jesus teaches that through loving each other we can essentially be our own Saviors, the Savior is within each of us in the form of LOVE. At least that's my personal interpretation of it. Jesus is one of the only redeeming parts of the Bible IMO that makes the book not entirely BS.

If humanity stopped waiting for a Messiah and started taking responsibility for the "log in our own eye" and helping each other we could make some progress.

Yes, because we have been taught this way for so many years, our spiritual growth has suffered to the point of stagnation. When humanity comes to understand what it is that we truly have within us, we will move on to be spiritual beings again, as we were intended to be from the beginning.

Originally posted by edmc^2
reply to post by LeoVirgo

 

Interesting point of view Leo, but i have a quick question for you.

Do you faith in the Lord Jesus Christ? If you do, where do you based it from?

Do you believe his words? That his words is the Truth!

ty,
edmc2

Hello again...yes a very valid question...how do we determine a 'truth'.

It is in the eyes of each beholder, to find it for themselves. We see today that one truth for one, may not be for another. We have people blowing themselves up, just to kill other people in the process of the demolition. The ones doing such acts, see them as a truth. WHY?? Due to their social environment, the beliefs they were raised in.....they do not questions such a act...they accept it, as truth. What would happen if one of those persons that has used a bomb to kill themselves along with killing others could rewind time...and what if they could of been adopted into another nation, another family, another social environment, another family. What then would be truth for that person? Would it be the same 'truth' as would of been if they would not of been raised differently?

So here, first off, we must admit, our environments, are social surroundings, the nature and nurture we have during our raising...all affect our ability to weigh and measure 'truth' as well as or more over as....'rights from wrongs'. Is is just happenstance that many people among the same country origins, end up with a majority belief amongst the people? Surely not.

I know there are people that come to their own path of 'faith' without their environment influencing them much, but we must admit there is a link to a persons environment they are raised in for what they are going to understand to be truth or right from wrong (in a majority view).

Everyone ends up with their own inner compass....but sometimes, due to the environment (lets say a harsh life) the inner compass shuts down.

There are so many things that factor into what a person finds to be truths'.

I was raised in a Christian home. My parents were very kind people, showed me how to always share what we have, offer to others acceptance, and how to help others smile and feel good about themselves. As I grew up...the things my parents would try to instill in me, were better then what some of the nature were of the God I learned of in church. My father taught me about patients, cause and affect, he was the science buff and did not need a 'belief' in anything...but him and my mother both somehow held a strong home.

With age, I began to learn to weigh things for myself. With experiences, I learned how crappy the feelings of guilt are to have, I learned perseverance in tough times, I learned how to work for something and then all the more I could enjoy what my hard work got for me. With experiences of life....I learned about being 'human' and what life in the flesh was like. With psychology classes I learned alot about the mechanics of people. So with all of this stuff.....I come to my own reasons of what is good and bad...what is right and wrong....what is of 'flesh' and of 'spirit'.

The religion I grew up in placed so much fear in me to see things out with my own reasoning. I was so afraid I would be punished or tricked...it was not funny at all. There were things that happened in my life and to those around me that left me no other choice but to question things...as I once did as a child. With much contemplation...I handed over my fate of my soul to the Holy Spirit that I had experienced in times of receiving comfort in my trials...and I let go of the things other men had told me of about 'god'. I even had to leave behind the stories of Jesus, to gain a fresh perspective.

Why am I telling you my life journey??

Because for my perspective of truth, one has to understand where I come from. Just as though, this is the same with all people. Some have chosen to not weigh things for themselves and just accept what other men say. Some choose to accept what their parents and society has told them is 'truth'. It took me a long time of work within myself, with God, to twist out of the knot religion placed in my mind, the knot of fear.

When I came back to the story of Jesus after shedding imprinted perspectives...I saw a new beauty to this man who stood against the crowds and the main road they traveled. I saw a new bravery I had not seen...I saw a new nature of that he walked the walked, not only talked the talked. He did not fight for this life here of Earth....he lived for the life of Spirit, truly.

When one steps back and see's what the world is in need of to become something greater.....all the things Jesus is acclaimed to of taught, are tools to get us there. I see truth in SOME Of the things that are acclaimed to Jesus, because they make sense to me, because when I am one in the mind of Spirit, many of the sayings that are acclaimed to Jesus I see of Spirit. Do I find truth in all the words acclaimed to Jesus? Well no, not in the nature of Spirit anyways. There are Earthly truths and Spiritual truths...both just as valid to us. We must learn things of Earth and man, before we can understand how different the Spirit and Thee's nature is.


But you know what else I learned...through this Holy Spirit? I then started to see 'truth' in many lands, many histories, many beliefs, many people. One that comes to mind, is Martin Luther King. I cant say that all of the things he spoke of were truths....but his action were something that benefited us as a whole, not as a separate people. This, is a truth in Spirit, to me. Anyone that can stand up and act in a way that leads us as a species, to be ONE...is a truth to me. I can only describe it as a pure feeling within me, which I believe is the Spirit within me, that awakens when it runs across its own nature of being. This nature vibrates in love, and is for all life, for all life, is of Spirit. The Spirits greatest tool....is offering of self. When I see another, offer themselves for the good of a whole, I see Spirit. When the whole world can offer itself, for the will of ONE and unity.....mountains will move.

I ask you to read something...and then come back and tell me...if you found truth in what you read.

K?

www.belowtopsecret.com...

If you find truth in what you read...how did you determine it was a truth? (edit to add...instead of looking for a truth, look for what you find to be a act of 'right' and 'wrong')

Looking forward to your thoughts on this....

LV

Another edit to add to apologize, I cant help sometimes to ramble to get my point across...sorry for so much talking.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by LeoVirgo]

[edit on 1-7-2010 by LeoVirgo]

[edit on 1-7-2010 by LeoVirgo]

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by FiatLux

 

Good point Fiat.

I've always thought of Jesus's message in the Gospels being summed up as "Save yourselves."... Jesus teaches that through loving each other we can essentially be our own Saviors, the Savior is within each of us in the form of LOVE. At least that's my personal interpretation of it. Jesus is one of the only redeeming parts of the Bible IMO that makes the book not entirely BS.

If humanity stopped waiting for a Messiah and started taking responsibility for the "log in our own eye" and helping each other we could make some progress.

Yes...and a part of it I absolutely love love love is when he is acclaimed to of said...."pick up your own cross and follow me".

The follow me part to me is saying....'Im showing you the way' (but you still have to carry your own load).

Just rings true to me.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


interesting

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.-1Cor15.45

For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace-Eph2.14

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.-Gal5.1

He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.-Col2.13

What, then, was the purpose of the law? It was added because of transgressions UNTIL the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.-Gal3.19

My intercessor is my friend...
on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as a man pleads for his friend...
"If you say, 'How we will hound him,
since the root of the trouble lies in him -Job16.20

The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.-Is11.6

The LORD will create a new thing on earth— a woman will surround a man."-Jer31.22

At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.-Gal4.29

I know that my Redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another. -Job19

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. -1Cor13.12

All the people rose as One Man-Judges20.8

For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?
-1Cor10.29

For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.-1Cor15.22

For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.-2Cor5.14

Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son.-1John2.22

He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.-John8.44



[edit on by No King but Jesus]

reply to post by No King but Jesus


Do you have an opinion of your own or is all you do copying and pasting scripture?

The topic of the thread is the question of whether the Bible lives up to the claims by believers that it is the inspired inerrant Word of God or not - anything to say on the subject?

I'm going to assume that you are a Bible believer in some aspect because of your ATS user name but you have to see that most of what you quoted is from Paul, someone who never met Jesus and had an interpretation that was different from many other Christ following sects that sprouted up.

Also, why is Jesus your King if he came to set you free? I never understood, even back when I was a Christian, why God and Jesus are personified as beings we should worship and adore and SERVE when Jesus says his burden is easy and that he has come to set us free. I understand Jesus's stance on us becoming "servants" of others, his self-less streak does show itself in the Gospels, but I never understood the idea of Jesus as a tyrant on a throne demanding we obey or burn.

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right?-Luke12.57

Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God.-Acts4.19

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.-Gal5.1

Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.-Luke22.25

The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king.-Rev17.11

Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.-Gal3.15

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.-2Cor3.17

One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.-Rom14.5

Being a real christian is difficult. More so when you believe in many heretical writings like I. Gnostic, lost writings and even some forged are interesting reads. Just because they are written eariler during the century does not mean a thing. Oral traditions from generation and generation acquired them and in the end wrote them down. Then you have some other ideas.

Imo man has translated the bible into HIS own image.

The original Genesis mentions Lillith (first woman on earth/or what was considered human by God's standards) from Babylon myth. Giglgamesh.

Although we know why that was left out.. Jews did not want to deal with divorce. If you honestly go throughout the bible as well Isaiah mentions her. Which would mean some sort of knowledge was known about her than what we know about her now. This could be the reasoning of the original Genesis.

1st edition genesis who was written by moses and rabbis had no say in it. The real true word that moses wrote is forever gone. Or hidden/surpressed

Then you got the new testament. A book that refers to Enoch, yet it is not in the holy bible. One of the richest stories ever told was that of Enoch and should be noted.

Although, you can blame the bible for being translated and etched away, you cannot see the story for what it is. The bible all connects and man has found a way to make a BOOK. the bible we know today. Surprising if anyone has read it from front to back like me you will see that it reads well and the truth speaks. Most people on here have never read it from front to back. The story connects within it. Most of the seperate books never have a "happy ending" because of the messiah world end factor. This is carried out in the NT. No book is ever complete in the bible. It is like life. Life has not stopped for mankind and it keeps breathing. Each book never ends. Most of the inner workings of the bible I do believe to be orginal unlike Genesis.


Chapter 2 was created in 950 BC of genesis (or rewrote, more than likely rewrote IMO) Chapter 1 came in at 400 BC. Era of Ezra and nemiah

You cannot say that all of this was the archetype of the book of Genesis for many reasons. The priest had an enormous amount of rituals that they had to do. These rituals did not start at 950 B.C. But had to have happened beforehand. By doing rituals, they had to have other sources, laws and rules. And when you have rituals you always have a story/myth. This HAD to be recorded and was very important. So their was text beforehand. The og Genesis was probably destroyed.

That is why the hebrew bible and christian bible is unique. It doesn't end.
btw.I think the Koran ends the same way. I have not read it yet
[edit on 1-7-2010 by Jordan River]

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Jordan River]

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Jordan River]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


it is my opinion due to a supernatural occurence that the scriptures reveal the will of God for mankind- one night after picking up a small green Gideons NT that an American woman from the Plains had left on the bar a few days earlier when I heard an AUDIBLE voice as if sitting on my left when I had begun to open just the cover that said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish-AWESTRUCK (not raised churched or knowing any scripts) I stood to my feet and said yes Lord and came across this years later-

I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.-John5.25

We always forget about personal miracles, sightings and visions. Majority of true prophets would still be feared and deemed a lunatic in our modern age. That is why they do not speak.

reply to post by No King but Jesus


Okay so here's another question.

What of people who claim to have heard the voice of Krishna, Athena, Allah, or even ALIENS? What do you think of their subjective experiences??

My guess is you will either reject them or claim they were a deceptive spirit playing tricks. But how do you know that what you heard was not a spirit playing tricks, or even an auditory hallucination. How do you know the mischievous Norse God Loki was not trying to trick you into believing in Jesus?

I've had moments where it felt like God was talking to me, I've had paranormal experiences but those only made me question my own flawed perception and usually I found better explanations than the supernatural ones. It would have been easy to believe them supernatural and just move on but actually caring enough to figure out if other explanations were more plausible always gets you closer to the truth than blind belief.

Don't get me wrong I am sure for you it was a very real experience but I am also sure that other religious believers from other faiths have had what they believed were very real experiences. So while the experience you had might be very convincing to you I hope you understand that your experience does not convince me.

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by No King but Jesus

 

Okay so here's another question.

What of people who claim to have heard the voice of Krishna, Athena, Allah, or even ALIENS? What do you think of their subjective experiences??

Athena? Really? Greek goddesses? Bright eyed athena? Really? Are we talking about a underground culture of greek god worshipping?

Allah=God

and I have yet to study hindu, which I am guessing is Krishna.

Aliens, I can buy that

Although, if these are all true and more than likely are in some context. How would you explain it?

reply to post by Jordan River


I'm unaware if there are any modern day Athena worshipers but I'm sure that in her day she was claimed to have appeared before people. She appears before Odysseus several times in the Odyssey if I recall correctly (not that the Odyssey is historically accurate but that's kinda the point - neither is the Bible).

Although, if these are all true and more than likely are in some context.

They would have to be proven true in an objective way for me to lend them credence. As they are now they are merely unsubstantiated sightings and subjective spiritual experiences which while holding great sway with the person experiencing them really don't leave me convinced in the slightest. If they were somehow proven true I guess I would have to become a theist. I go where the evidence leads and if the evidence pointed toward Athena, Krishna or Jesus I'd have to believe in them.

I've seen some # in my life. I don't want to tell. but I have. I know that it is unsubstantial, but I try to interwoven science, theology and other spiritual information together. I cannot say, but we can predict and think about it like people of mind and thought, socrates and plato.



With science, I see connections with other dimensions and parallel universes. If you do not believe or question this then I probably lost you. But with all this endless potential of different universes there has to be something bigger. This is how i conceive that there has to be a heaven. I probably lost you now. It is okay.

The birth of thought is an interesting one. Some one had to thought, thought to give thought. IF we can maybe see something as great as a dimension that is multi conscious of everything than we can theorize that this is God. Although, this to me feels like a theory of mine rather than anything else.

This is how I see things. Although, we are only animals and we forget that. We have only had cars for about 100 years. We only have had computers since the 80s (consumerism) How young we are indeed.

I think the mystery of itself is just that. I am starting to find out that I will never know the truth.

Earth is the greatest epic tragic comedy ever.

I myself have approx 55 years of life left. I am a little surprised to find this out today lol.

All I know is that I am going some where. I do not know where and no one knows. I cannot believe my life force dissipates, but I do believe it is placed and a better place. Why?

Because life is only 80 years and is incredibly short. The length factor makes me laugh inside, because I try to find problems within my life to be a better person for whatever reason. Everything in the universe moves and dies. If everything in the universe has motion, I know that other dimensions have motion as well. Where my vibrational plasma life force go will keep moving to the edge of the universe. We have no science for the soul and yet most of us agree that it exist. It makes us human

I cannot predict why visions happen. Why anything happens. I do not understand world and I believe that Earth is far more mystical than one would think.

This is not reality. I have 55 years of life. 80 years of life cannot be reality. We are here to learn something. I do not know, but it is painful

[edit on 1-7-2010 by Jordan River]

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


it is written-is what really lit a fire, here are some really good ones too

For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil. The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!-Luke7.34

Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst.-1Tim1.15

before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand-Rom9.11

Do not be overrighteous,
neither be overwise—
why destroy yourself?
Do not be overwicked,
and do not be a fool—
why die before your time?
It is good to grasp the one
and not let go of the other.
The man who fears God will avoid all extremes .-Ecc7.16

He sent dispatches to all parts of the kingdom, to each province in its own script and to each people in its own language, proclaiming in each people's tongue that every man should be ruler over his own household.-Esther1.22

Every man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken.-Micah4.4





[edit on by No King but Jesus]

Originally posted by No King but Jesus
reply to post by Titen-Sxull

 

it is my opinion due to a supernatural occurence that the scriptures reveal the will of God for mankind- one night after picking up a small green Gideons NT that an American woman from the Plains had left on the bar a few days earlier when I heard an AUDIBLE voice as if sitting on my left when I had begun to open just the cover that said-my name, I am Jesus I died for your sins believe in Me and you will never perish-AWESTRUCK (not raised churched or knowing any scripts) I stood to my feet and said yes Lord and came across this years later-

Sorry, I have to ask you. How are you sure and certain that the voice was who you think it was? Did a figure appear to you, and if so, please provide a psychical description of the being.

I too have had more than my share of supernatural experiences, some nice, some not so nice. I have learned to question everything, no exceptions. And, one last thing...how can you ever be free if you have a Lord?

Lord:

1. a person who has authority, control, or power over others; a master, chief, or ruler.
2. a person who exercises authority from property rights; an owner of land, houses, etc.
3. a person who is a leader or has great influence in a chosen profession: the great lords of banking.
4. a feudal superior; the proprietor of a manor.
5. a titled nobleman or peer; a person whose ordinary appellation contains by courtesy the title Lord or some higher title.
6. Lords, the Lords Spiritual and Lords Temporal comprising the House of Lords.

Dictionary.com

reply to post by Jordan River

But with all this endless potential of different universes there has to be something bigger. This is how i conceive that there has to be a heaven.

There is a potential for other Universes sure but that idea is in its infancy and is only now crawling from philosophy into science slowly but surely. It has yet to be proven. So leaping from 'there might be multiple Universes' to 'there HAS TO BE a heaven' to me seems completely illogical and and unnecessary leap.

The birth of thought is an interesting one. Some one had to thought, thought to give thought.

Right but postulating a God as the origin of thought doesn't answer the question it just raises the question of where God's ability to think came from. Its that old something from nothing argument. Theists claim that scientists and atheists believe the Universe came from Nothing - this isn't true of most scientists and atheists but even if it were it wouldn't matter because theists believe the same thing, they believe their God created everything out of Nothing and just ALWAYS existed.

The birth of thought likely stems from our evolution, as we evolved bigger and bigger brains our ability to communicate and think transcended the simple level that some organisms demonstrate to the point we are at now. Thought doesn't require a God.

How young we are indeed.

I agree, our species is only just now awakening to our intellectual potential. We spent 100,000 years at least without any written language - let alone the technology and modern medicine we enjoy today.

Earth is the greatest epic tragic comedy ever.

Again I can't disagree, I've often said that life is a joke and death is the punch line. But I for one am happy to play my little part in what will be the grand bittersweet symphony of life the Universe and everything.

We have no science for the soul and yet most of us agree that it exist. It makes us human

I don't believe in an after-life. It was probably the last belief I let go of. Even a year ago if you'd talked to me about the after-life I would have mentioned reincarnation or the continuation of consciousness on some kind of energy field. It was hard to accept my mortality but now I understand that when I die it is no different than when the animals do. I will be lost forever and yet I will continue on as part of this cosmos. It is a saddening realization, for a time, but I find it better than hiding behind superstition for hopes of an eternity for which there is no evidence. If anything I now feel far more connected to the Universe, far more desirous of making THIS LIFE worth while instead of waiting for some unseen unproven paradise that may or may not await me after death.

I do not know, but it is painful

But it is also beautiful. Never let the sadness of your inability to grasp the meaning of life and death overwhelm the beauty of the moment. The Cosmos is incredible and just being part of this world, of this incredible experiment of evolution, this great menagerie of life crafted by nature's blind hands, is truly beautiful regardless of what awaits us when our eyes close for the last time.

reply to post by autowrench



no figure just audible voice that one time only but also did see a heavenly being/cherubim/seraphim/angel? (i have never looked into yet) when I was @13ish bright like lightning glowing white all over like a cloud eyes wings all -I suppose is the best way to describe him and I say him because appeared very strong he flew in from the south landed on the roof across the street then walked the ridge towards the east to the edge started to look down then suddenly turned his head to look at me as if caught of gaurd, I ducked and when looked back up he was flying back the way he came, and there has been some other things can see a cool dove in photos and yes typing/writing is not my thing failed english since kindergarden-ha!

he persevered because he saw him who is invisible-Heb11.27

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.-Matt28.18

He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead."-Acts17.31

Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.-Acts2.36

Christ has indeed been raised from the dead-1Cor15.20

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


Hello Titen...

Have you ever heard about my mothers NDE? I have it posted here at ATS...we made some videos of her talking about it so we could share it personally with others. It was a really amazing experience that changed many of her beliefs.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


do you have a link