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The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

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posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by K J Gunderson
 



Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by darkelf
reply to post by K J Gunderson
 


I have been reading and studying the Bible for years. Although it was written by a number of different people, there is a continuous thread that runs through it. If you don't know the back story, you might not understand the random story you are reading.


That is just silly double talk. If you have read even a little bit of the bible, you know it in no way shares structure or form with a coherent novel. It has contradictory stories as well as multiple versions of the same events. Chapters end with no correlation to where the next begins. It is not a novel.


Chapters and verses are only there to facilitate the location of sentences. Many of the chapters are placed in very awkward locations and do nothing for continuity. Contradictory stories and multiple versions are just different points of view. The four Gospels, for example, are basically the same story from different men. God did not write these stories, man did. But I believe they were inspired by God to write them.


I do not disagree reading the entire book helps but it is still not one cohesive story. Sorry but it is not. You cannot demonstrate or even argue that it is so please do not use false analogies. The only thing worse than a blind zealot is ANY religious person that uses distortion to get me closer to their god.


I am neither a blind zealot nor religious. It is not my place to get you closer to God. That is your choice and yours alone. I am simply trying to explain how to understand the Bible. It is one of the most interesting books I've ever read and I still enjoy studying it. I discover something each time I read it.


I have read the bible. You are not going to talk down to me as some ignorant plebe and expect me to humble take your word. I read it. It is not a novel. Trying to use it as such in an analogy is a poor attempt. There is not one singular thread that runs through the entire book, there are many. You just really like one.


I never intended to come across as talking down to anyone. I am trying to give people a differnt take on the Bible. It is the story of God. He is the main character. It starts out telling how God created the material world and mankind. It ends telling how God will judge everyone to His standards. The stuff in the middle gives me insight to God's character. I cannot begin to fathom how a loving merciful God can kill those you call innocents without understanding the nature of God and what the death of innocents actually means to Him.

I appologise if I came off as condescending. That was not my intent.




posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Chapters and verses are only there to facilitate the location of sentences. Many of the chapters are placed in very awkward locations and do nothing for continuity.


Kind of my point.


Contradictory stories and multiple versions are just different points of view.


You see that comparable to a novel? How?


The four Gospels, for example, are basically the same story from different men. God did not write these stories, man did. But I believe they were inspired by God to write them.


Right, God inspired them all differently? That makes little sense to me if it is perfect. Why would God inspire one man to see things one way, another to see them another way, and then tell them to get along?

Anyway, that is my point. That is FOUR DIFFERENT BOOKS. Four different books does not a novel make.



I am neither a blind zealot nor religious.


You are obviously one and at least a little of the other. You are here talking about your god. That is religious. Sorry, but it is. You are insisting that four different books by four different people in a collection is the same thing as one cohesive narrative. It is not. That makes me think you suffer some blindness. I honestly did not think either was an insult. If you are not religious, then you must not be talking about your religion here. Seems you are. If you are not a blind zealot, then surely you can see how stating that different books, by different authors, with no cohesive narrative - are not the same thing as a novel with a beginning, middle, and end.


It is not my place to get you closer to God. That is your choice and yours alone. I am simply trying to explain how to understand the Bible. It is one of the most interesting books I've ever read and I still enjoy studying it. I discover something each time I read it.


Why try to get me to believe as you do about this religious book then? If you were simply trying to explain things away with facts, then I would see your point. What I see is someone distorting reality to make a point. What point? Not sure but it is one that has to do with me understanding how YOU SEE your bible more and not really the bible more.


I never intended to come across as talking down to anyone.


Forgive me. That was harshly put. It was not the first time I saw you state that if someone read the bible they would get it. This goes on the assumption that any of us would be here, having this discussion without first studying for the test. I just find that presumptuous but that is me and I do apologize for how that was put.


I am trying to give people a differnt take on the Bible. It is the story of God. He is the main character. It starts out telling how God created the material world and mankind. It ends telling how God will judge everyone to His standards. The stuff in the middle gives me insight to God's character. I cannot begin to fathom how a loving merciful God can kill those you call innocents without understanding the nature of God and what the death of innocents actually means to Him.


I have never asked that question. I skipped that one so I need to understand something else. I need to understand how proponents of the bible can just say things and feel ok with that, no matter how untrue or far from reality they may be.

Case in point: You saying the bible is like a novel and therefore needs to be read from beginning to end in order to be understood at all, in any part.

I would dare say you need to tell every priest that ever held mass that I was present for because they seemed to think that this collection of stories could be broken down into little lessons that have a beginning, middle, and end all within the vast collection of fairy tales that is the bible.

It is not one long story by one mind. It is a collection of indirect collaboration. BIG DIFFERENCE.


I appologise if I came off as condescending. That was not my intent.


I apologize for how I come off all the way around. Really.

[edit on 24-6-2010 by K J Gunderson]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 06:26 PM
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Both, God used the left brain within Jews to write the Bible. But it hid the truth as much as it revealed it. Because God didn't think he could afford to trust people with the truth, but today, before a possible nuclear war coming, it is time.

You're right, the real true about them was kept secret from Mankind because God feared betrayal and rebellion against him if the truth about him were known. Did you ever wonder why someone all-powerful and all-knowing was so mistrustful of people in the past? Worse, he feared Europeans, then mostly Romans, would side with Satan if the truth were known.

Not an all-powerful God outside ourselves, but a hidden composite mind of all the left brains in Mankind, joined into one mind. Favoring language because that is what the left brain does best. Therefore favoring a people best with language, Jews. Trusting them to write the Bible.

But his rival, a composite mind of right brains, more the builder than reader, sent a failed artist after his chosen people. Thus the second anti-Christ was Hitler, a failed right brained artist. Out to kill all the Jews. Why? That was God's core mind. His chosen ones.

God not being all powerful, kept the truth from us. And how did he try to combat Satan in designing Mankind's future? He used law, media, and money to control labor, more the right brained people. Sometimes losing control of the people he used, so some became corrupt, lovers of money and petty.
Some minds even became insane. Knowing American died to save them from the Holocaust, but still shipping out their jobs to enrich themselves. Others? Madoff.

So Jews flooded into media, banking, and law without no one noticing the why. Pouring into politics. Some Jews, just a select few, still agreed this knowledge was too dangerous for the public, so they used misinformation, and started an atheist movement to disguise the truth. Even most Jews were not to be trusted with this information.

Little truths were considered to not be acceptable for the public. For instance, many blacks are generally more right brained than left brained. Generally more artistic than able readers. So the crime rates, the social chaos, was predictable for urban cities. Even the anti-Semitic feelings in the black community , which is contrary to what would be expected from a people sharing the civil rights movement together. This too was considered unacceptable public information.

But this secret information came out from someone outside their tight inner circle. Becoming targeted for what he knew. Always from a distance, because they discovered a reference in the Bible to his coming someday, and his book revealing all God's secrets. And it was demanded by God, that whatever was done to him, should be done to those that attack him. Even killing his enemies was approved by God. Because the message was that important to the world in a critical time, just before a possible nuclear war.

So his attackers kept their distance. When he was attacked, it was mostly blacks who were set up to take the blame, because they knew the truth and used it to their advantage.

But Wall Street has bleed industry from the USA. Thrown millions out of work to enrich those who never work with their hands in building anything, ignoring the warnings against such behavior. The Devil being a right brained entity, needs to use his hands in us, or he becomes insane. Idle hands are of the Devil. Thus America is becoming insane as Germany once was driven insane during the depression. Paving the road for the third anti-Christ.


There is a mind above both of them, It is called the Holy Ghost. Where is it?
All around you. The relationships in Space itself weave its mind, as movements in Space in your brain weave your mind.

Jesus is the one core human mind with God's mind with equal power to the whole mind of God.

Now you have the biggest secret in Mankind. But to really know it,

God vs. Satan :Untold Story

www.godmystery.com...


Now you know why God hid.



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by K J Gunderson

Originally posted by darkelf


Contradictory stories and multiple versions are just different points of view.


You see that comparable to a novel? How?


Do you remember the movie Vantage Point? I have read a few novels in the past that are similar to that movie. By telling the story form different points of view, you get a fuller though often contradictory view.



The four Gospels, for example, are basically the same story from different men. God did not write these stories, man did. But I believe they were inspired by God to write them.


Right, God inspired them all differently? That makes little sense to me if it is perfect. Why would God inspire one man to see things one way, another to see them another way, and then tell them to get along?

Anyway, that is my point. That is FOUR DIFFERENT BOOKS. Four different books does not a novel make.


I didn’t say that God inspired them differently. I said God inspired them. They each wrote according to their point of view. No two people will see an event the exact same way. Their past experiences and knowledge will always color how they interpret what they saw.

I never said that the Bible was a novel, but that it could be approached like a novel. I gave the example of The Wheel of Time series. The Bible can be approached as a series of novels. The same rules still apply. For me, I can read any single book of the Bible and understand why certain things happen because I have read the previous books.




I am neither a blind zealot nor religious.


You are obviously one and at least a little of the other. You are here talking about your god. That is religious. Sorry, but it is. You are insisting that four different books by four different people in a collection is the same thing as one cohesive narrative. It is not. That makes me think you suffer some blindness. I honestly did not think either was an insult. If you are not religious, then you must not be talking about your religion here. Seems you are. If you are not a blind zealot, then surely you can see how stating that different books, by different authors, with no cohesive narrative - are not the same thing as a novel with a beginning, middle, and end.


It’s all about perspective. I don’t consider myself a blind zealot or religious because I don’t believe in institutionalized religion. I didn’t take offense; I just don’t see myself that way. I believe that a person’s belief in God is between them and God and should not be used as a tool of control. I believe there is a difference between being a spiritual person and being a religious person. I am here talking about my God because that just happens to be the topic of this thread.



It is not my place to get you closer to God. That is your choice and yours alone. I am simply trying to explain how to understand the Bible. It is one of the most interesting books I've ever read and I still enjoy studying it. I discover something each time I read it.


Why try to get me to believe as you do about this religious book then? If you were simply trying to explain things away with facts, then I would see your point. What I see is someone distorting reality to make a point. What point? Not sure but it is one that has to do with me understanding how YOU SEE your bible more and not really the bible more.


My suggestion at a different approach to the Bible is in no way to make a point or try to make someone see the Bible the same way I do. As a tutor, I had to know different learning styles. Not everyone learns the same way and I often had to use different styles until I discovered which one worked best for that particular student. The novel approach is a learning style that works for some and not for others. It is just a different approach to the Bible. I don’t need anyone to understand how I see the Bible. I gave this example as a way to help someone else experience the Bible.



I never intended to come across as talking down to anyone.


Forgive me. That was harshly put. It was not the first time I saw you state that if someone read the bible they would get it. This goes on the assumption that any of us would be here, having this discussion without first studying for the test. I just find that presumptuous but that is me and I do apologize for how that was put.


I don’t think it is presumptuous to make that claim. The Bible is not an easy read and too many people get on here and want to argue scripture that when taken out of context mean nothing. I’ve been reading and studying it many years and I still find where I misunderstood something. I probably come off passionate about the Bible because I enjoy it so much. I am always willing to listen though, and by no means believe that my take is always the correct one.



I am trying to give people a differnt take on the Bible. It is the story of God. He is the main character. It starts out telling how God created the material world and mankind. It ends telling how God will judge everyone to His standards. The stuff in the middle gives me insight to God's character. I cannot begin to fathom how a loving merciful God can kill those you call innocents without understanding the nature of God and what the death of innocents actually means to Him.


I have never asked that question. I skipped that one so I need to understand something else. I need to understand how proponents of the bible can just say things and feel ok with that, no matter how untrue or far from reality they may be.

Case in point: You saying the bible is like a novel and therefore needs to be read from beginning to end in order to be understood at all, in any part.

I would dare say you need to tell every priest that ever held mass that I was present for because they seemed to think that this collection of stories could be broken down into little lessons that have a beginning, middle, and end all within the vast collection of fairy tales that is the bible.

It is not one long story by one mind. It is a collection of indirect collaboration. BIG DIFFERENCE.


The novel concept is not something I came up with. It was taught to me by my mom who knew I did not learn things the same way as most people. When I was a kid and went to church, our pastor would pull one of those stories to give us the lesson. First he would read the scripture that related to that story. Then he would give us the back story as to how and why the people involved were where they were. He often explained customs and laws of the time. I guess that’s why Baptist services lasted so long.

(cont.)

[edit on 6/24/2010 by darkelf]



posted on Jun, 24 2010 @ 07:43 PM
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I agree with you that it is not one long story by one mind. It is one long story by many men who wrote because they were inspired by God. I suppose it could be seen as a collection of indirect collaboration. But when I see Daniel calculating the days left of captivity from the prophet Ezekiel, I have to feel that maybe they’re not so indirect after all.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:28 AM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Do you remember the movie Vantage Point? I have read a few novels in the past that are similar to that movie. By telling the story form different points of view, you get a fuller though often contradictory view.


I was wondering how long that might take to come up. Choose your own adventure type books are fun too, that does not however lend any validity to the poorly cobbled together collection that is the bible.


I didn’t say that God inspired them differently. I said God inspired them. They each wrote according to their point of view. No two people will see an event the exact same way. Their past experiences and knowledge will always color how they interpret what they saw.


Which leads to the only logical conclusion - that god inspired them differently.


I never said that the Bible was a novel, but that it could be approached like a novel. I gave the example of The Wheel of Time series. The Bible can be approached as a series of novels. The same rules still apply. For me, I can read any single book of the Bible and understand why certain things happen because I have read the previous books.


You can also tear many pages out without reading them and it will have no impact on entire books of the bible. The books do not rely on each other. They do not build on, grow from, expand on, or further elucidate any of their predecessors. The bible does not work that way. It is more like an encyclopedia where I do not need to learn all about an aardvark in order to be able to understand what it says about xylophones.



It’s all about perspective. I don’t consider myself a blind zealot or religious because I don’t believe in institutionalized religion. I didn’t take offense; I just don’t see myself that way. I believe that a person’s belief in God is between them and God and should not be used as a tool of control. I believe there is a difference between being a spiritual person and being a religious person. I am here talking about my God because that just happens to be the topic of this thread.


From my perspective, anyone that believes in something that at one point or another requires a lack of vision in order to hold onto seems blind. When a person takes that lack of vision from belief to promotion, it seems zealous. Just my perspective.


My suggestion at a different approach to the Bible is in no way to make a point or try to make someone see the Bible the same way I do. As a tutor, I had to know different learning styles. Not everyone learns the same way and I often had to use different styles until I discovered which one worked best for that particular student. The novel approach is a learning style that works for some and not for others. It is just a different approach to the Bible. I don’t need anyone to understand how I see the Bible. I gave this example as a way to help someone else experience the Bible.


Learning and knowing are different things though. As a tutor, you surely understand that many people will need different paths to understand great concepts. Many people will need to employ different tactics to help remember and apply knowledge. The thing that stays constant would be the facts. They do not change. There is not one other discipline in all of life that works like religion seems to for you. There is no one simple truth, instead you need to pile on various sidenotes - not all mind you, some are bad, and take what you like from different voices in different times, put them together and see what they infer. As a tutor, you should know that is pure BS.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by darkelf
I don’t think it is presumptuous to make that claim.


What is not presumptuous about presuming I have not read the bible?


The Bible is not an easy read and too many people get on here and want to argue scripture that when taken out of context mean nothing. I’ve been reading and studying it many years and I still find where I misunderstood something. I probably come off passionate about the Bible because I enjoy it so much. I am always willing to listen though, and by no means believe that my take is always the correct one.


That would all make sense if you were saying that people might need to read it again and try harder to understand it. You just flat out kept telling people they need to read it. I read it. Even the people in your example read it. See why that gets the reaction it did?


The novel concept is not something I came up with. It was taught to me by my mom who knew I did not learn things the same way as most people. When I was a kid and went to church, our pastor would pull one of those stories to give us the lesson. First he would read the scripture that related to that story. Then he would give us the back story as to how and why the people involved were where they were. He often explained customs and laws of the time. I guess that’s why Baptist services lasted so long.


I enjoy the baptist services that I have attended. They were actually celebrations and made it something positive. Catholics really need a makeover. It is nice that your mom gave you a concept you could hold onto but it is a false one.

The bible is a collection of contradicting stories by different authors.

Now if you had a collection that started with Bram Stoker's Dracula, then was full of Anne Rice Novels, and ended with those Twilight books, would you really expect you need to read the whole thing for any of it to make sense? You would have vampires that are killed by certain means and have certain abilities and then suddenly they can not and do not, etc. That is your bible, my friend.



I agree with you that it is not one long story by one mind. It is one long story by many men who wrote because they were inspired by God.


What do you mean when you say "inspired by God" and how do you know that is who was inspiring them?


I suppose it could be seen as a collection of indirect collaboration.


You mean you suppose it could also not? It is a bunch of different books, written by different people. The books were put together after the fact. Indirect collaboration is exactly what it is.


But when I see Daniel calculating the days left of captivity from the prophet Ezekiel, I have to feel that maybe they’re not so indirect after all.



Not sure what on earth you are saying there.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 09:52 AM
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Gods word. Those that can't decode the bible, are the ones that dont believe in 2012



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by SwissPort905v2
 


It seems I have been shown that not much is going to happen in 2012, in fact through history there have been much bigger moments that have occurred, then what 2012 will be.

The shifting has been happening, it happens within the minds of the body complexes. Earth is not changing, no different then the cycles and orders that she has always followed, there is not going to be a rapture or ascension while people are alive and living.

Many are coming here in this time to 'make a choice'. This is the only density with 'time' 'veil' and is the perfect density to come back to when needing to have your inner nature weighed and measured.

You used the Bible and 2012 in the same sentence...not sure if you are coming from the rapture point of view or the ascension point of view....but both, will not come.

If you want to continue to believe what you do, that is fine of course, you should never just take another mans word for it....but bookmark me, look me up in 2013.



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 03:54 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
How can you determine if it is the Word of God or the word of man without a thorough indepth study of the Bible? Have you read the Bibile from cover to caover? Have you studied the Bible in depth?


Tell us, darkelf -

Have YOU read the Koran ?
Have YOU read the Hindu scriptures?
Have YOU read the Buddhist scriptures?


Kap



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 03:56 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Which is why I suggested the Strong's Concordance. Much of the descrepancies have to do with improper translation.


Nonsense.
There are fundamental contradictions throughout the Bible

I don't think you have ever actually read the Bible.


Kap



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 03:58 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
Chapters and verses are only there to facilitate the location of sentences. Many of the chapters are placed in very awkward locations and do nothing for continuity. Contradictory stories and multiple versions are just different points of view. The four Gospels, for example, are basically the same story from different men.


Nonsense.

The Gospels are completely contradictory on the easter events :



=========================================
What time did the women visit the tomb?

* Matthew: "as it began to dawn" (28:1)
* Mark: "very early in the morning . . . at the rising of the sun"
(16:2, KJV); "when the sun had risen" (NRSV); "just after sunrise"
(NIV)
* Luke: "very early in the morning" (24:1, KJV) "at early dawn" (NRSV)
* John: "when it was yet dark" (20:1)

Who were the women?

* Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
* Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
* Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other
women (24:10)
* John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

What was their purpose?

* Matthew: to see the tomb (28:1)
* Mark: had already seen the tomb (15:47), brought spices (16:1)
* Luke: had already seen the tomb (23:55), brought spices (24:1)
* John: the body had already been spiced before they arrived (19:39,40)

Was the tomb open when they arrived?

* Matthew: No (28:2)
* Mark: Yes (16:4)
* Luke: Yes (24:2)
* John: Yes (20:1)

Who was at the tomb when they arrived?

* Matthew: One angel (28:2-7)
* Mark: One young man (16:5)
* Luke: Two men (24:4)
* John: Two angels (20:12)

Where were these messengers situated?

* Matthew: Angel sitting on the stone (28:2)
* Mark: Young man sitting inside, on the right (16:5)
* Luke: Two men standing inside (24:4)
* John: Two angels sitting on each end of the bed (20:12)

What did the messenger(s) say?

* Matthew: "Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was
crucified. He is not here for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the
place where the Lord lay. And go quickly, and tell his disciples that
he is risen from the dead: and, behold, he goeth before you into
Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you." (28:5-7)

* Mark: "Be not afrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was
crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they
laid him. But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth
before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you."
(16:6-7)

* Luke: "Why seek ye the living among the dead? He is not here, but is
risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men,
and be crucified, and the third day rise again." (24:5-7)

* John: "Woman, why weepest thou?" (20:13)

Did the women tell what happened?

* Matthew: Yes (28:8)
* Mark: No. "Neither said they any thing to any man." (16:8)
* Luke: Yes. "And they returned from the tomb and told all these things
to the eleven, and to all the rest." (24:9, 22-24)
* John: Yes (20:18)

When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?

* Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
* Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
* Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
* John: No (20:2)

When did Mary first see Jesus?

* Matthew: Before she returned to the disciples (28:9)
* Mark: Before she returned to the disciples (16:9,10)
* John: After she returned to the disciples (20:2,14)

Could Jesus be touched after the resurrection?

* Matthew: Yes (28:9)
* John: No (20:17), Yes (20:27)

After the women, to whom did Jesus first appear?

* Matthew: Eleven disciples (28:16)
* Mark: Two disciples in the country, later to eleven (16:12,14)
* Luke: Two disciples in Emmaus, later to eleven (24:13,36)
* John: Ten disciples (Judas and Thomas were absent) (20:19, 24)
* Paul: First to Cephas (Peter), then to the twelve. (Twelve? Judas was
dead). (I Corinthians 15:5)

Where did Jesus first appear to the disciples?

* Matthew: On a mountain in Galilee (60-100 miles away) (28:16-17)
* Mark: To two in the country, to eleven "as they sat at meat"
(16:12,14)
* Luke: In Emmaus (about seven miles away) at evening, to the rest in a
room in Jerusalem later that night. (24:31, 36)
* John: In a room, at evening (20:19)

Did the disciples believe the two men?

* Mark: No (16:13)
* Luke: Yes (24:34--it is the group speaking here, not the two)

What happened at the appearance?

* Matthew: Disciples worshipped, some doubted, "Go preach." (28:17-20)
* Mark: Jesus reprimanded them, said "Go preach" (16:14-19)
* Luke: Christ incognito, vanishing act, materialized out of thin air,
reprimand, supper (24:13-51)
* John: Passed through solid door, disciples happy, Jesus blesses them,
no reprimand (21:19-23)

Did Jesus stay on earth for a while?

* Mark: No (16:19) Compare 16:14 with John 20:19 to show that this was
all done on Sunday
* Luke: No (24:50-52) It all happened on Sunday
* John: Yes, at least eight days (20:26, 21:1-22)
* Acts: Yes, at least forty days (1:3)

Where did the ascension take place?

* Matthew: No ascension. Book ends on mountain in Galilee
* Mark: In or near Jerusalem, after supper (16:19)
* Luke: In Bethany, very close to Jerusalem, after supper (24:50-51)
* John: No ascension
* Paul: No ascension
* Acts: Ascended from Mount of Olives (1:9-12)



Completely DIFFERENT stories that can NOT be reconciled.


Kap



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
I didn’t say that God inspired them differently. I said God inspired them. They each wrote according to their point of view. No two people will see an event the exact same way.


Nonsense.

The Gospel accounts of easter morning are totally DIFFERENT.
As shown above.


Kap



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by darkelf
I agree with you that it is not one long story by one mind. It is one long story by many men who wrote because they were inspired by God.


No.
it's many DIFFERENT stories by DIFFERENT people, which do NOT match.


Kap



posted on Jun, 28 2010 @ 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by SwissPort905v2
Gods word. Those that can't decode the bible, are the ones that dont believe in 2012


Wow.
Are you claiming 2012 is mentioned in the bible?

Are you serious?
Where?

2012 is a total myth - the Mayans do NOT think the world will end (no, they don't - go CHECK the facts.)

Every few years we have this stupid end-of-the-world nonsense.
EVERY TIME - it's wrong.

It's been happening for 2 THOUSAND years now - always WRONG.


Kap



posted on Jun, 29 2010 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by SwissPort905v2
 




Gods word. Those that can't decode the bible, are the ones that dont believe in 2012


The Bible never once within its pages mentions the date 2012.

I've looked into the 2012 phenomenon and I can say without doubt that its a load of BS you've been sold by a bunch of pseudoscientific new age con artists. It has no basis in reality and no basis in ancient Mayan culture or prophecy.

There will be no: Rapture, planet X, spiritual revolution, pole shift, dwarf star, etc. The only thing remarkable about December 21 2012 will be the amount of people wasting their time cowering in bomb shelters while I'm enjoying my Friday evening


But please, if you are so certain, point me to the passages of scripture that speak directly of the events in 2012.



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:44 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


Since you and your fellow critics failed to disprove the Noachian Flood satisfactorily with facts, I’ll proceed with what you said next:

In what way does the fact that its authors were total screw ups help your case? Besides the fact that Moses most certainly did NOT write the books attributed to him the idea that the writers were sinful just hurts your case as they are then flawed enough to screw up while writing the Bible.

Fail.
Biblical prophecies fail on every level. They are vague and open to wildly different interpretations and many of them aren't even prophecies and are taken out of context and used as prophecy by modern apologists and zealots. Fail.

I agree, Fail indeed on your part to recognize the importance of the fact God used imperfect humans to write the Bible with all their frailties. Failed indeed to know the writers – what sort of men were they and the lessons we can learn from them – their successes and failures. Failed indeed to recognize the importance of Bible prophecy – their importance in our time. Failed to recognize that only Jehovah God can cause history to be written in advance. In other words, he can prophesy, can foretell the future – hundreds even thousands of years in advance (Gen 3:15)!

Can you name a book that can do that?

With your vast knowledge please tell me if you agree with your fellow Bible critics that the following Bible prophecies are “FANTASIES”.
I’ll just quote a few of the Bible Prophecies. Please let me know if these things are referring to the past, present or the future or made up or as you say “taken out of context and used as prophecy by modern apologists and zealots”?

Signs of Last Days of the System of Things (world)

Hint in understanding these prophecies:
They are composite signs that belong to a specific / particular time; that is, you will see all of them happening during that time period – worldwide. Just like a fingerprint is unique to an individual, they cannot be mistaken to identify that time period.

Here are the prophetic events: (time of fulfillment – 1914 to present/future)

“Nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom” (Matt. 24:7)

True there had been many wars before 1914 but none can be compared after 1914 when the nations of the World went to war, twice. And more wars came after that. As for casualties, according to statistics more than 55 million human lives were lost from the 2nd world war, 20 million more after that. If we combine it with the 1st world war, the number is staggering.

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

Interestingly, this prophetic event corresponds well with the prophecy at Rev 6:4 – the 2nd horseman of the Apocalypse. Here’s what Jesus said:

“And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him.”

In as much as the color red signifies blood –bloodshed, so does the “fiery-colored horse” signifies WAR – not just a minor war but a ‘great war’ as the rider was given “a great sword”…” to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another”

Fact: before 1914 – the armaments of war were not as destructive as the ones used in WWI for in that bloodbat,h tanks, poison gas, airplanes, submarines, huge cannons, and automatic weapons were used either for the first time or on an unprecedented scale. WWII gave us the Atomic Bomb/Hydrogen bomb and more powerful weapons of mass destruction - a “great sword” indeed. What about now, any idea how many stockpile of weapons do the nations have? More importantly, will the world survive if there’s another World War? Pretty much everyone will say NO.

According to the book The World in the Crucible—1914-1919, this was “a new scope of war, the first total war in the experience of mankind. Its duration, intensity, and scale exceeded anything previously known or generally expected.”

en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...
en.wikipedia.org...

What about the Peace – before 1914 there was peace on earth but 1914 changed all of that. The innocence of man according to historians was taken away after WWI.

next..
“There will be food shortages . . . in one place after another” (Matt. 24:7)

Before 1914 – there was abundance of food on earth but after 1914 the world was plunged into famine. As expected modern warfare brought famine in its wake, for resources normally used in feeding the hungry were diverted to supplying war weapons. Farm workers were conscripted and battle-scarred fields and scorched-earth policies curtail food production.

Interestingly, this prophetic event also corresponds well with the prophecy at Rev 6:5, 6 – the third horseman of the Apocalypse.

Here’s what it said:

And when he opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say: ‘Come!’ “And I saw, and, look! a black horse; and the one seated upon it had a pair of scales in his hand. And I heard a voice as if in the midst of the four living creatures say: ‘A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the olive oil and the wine.’”

A “black horse” with its rider holding “a pair of scales in his hand” denoting a scarcity of food.

In spite of the technological advances in food production – many nations today are still experiencing shortage of food.

In fact according to The World Food Council it was reported that in mid-1987 that 512 million humans were starving and that 40,000 children die of hunger-related causes every day. What about today – are the cost of food going down or going up? Is there abundance of food or scarcity of food worldwide? How much buying power does a dollar have today – “a denarius, a wage for the day”? Compare that before 1914.

Sadly food shortages are not due to lack of food but as Dr. Abdelgalil Elmekki of the University of Toronto explains – famine is often “a matter of distribution and government policy.”


cont...



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 12:53 AM
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...
Following the two galloping horsemen is another horseman – “a pale horse; and the one seated upon it had the name Death. And Hades was closely following him.” (Revelation 6:8a)

As the name of its rider implies “Death” another rider was closely following him – Hades – common grave of mankind. WWI and WWII brought so much destruction and famine and pestilence that “Death” was commonplace. Millions of lives were sent to their early grave by the three galloping “horsemen” and the sad part is, they are still galloping their way throughout the earth claiming more lives. Can you point to a time where this happened and still happening? The facts are in front of us.

As for those serving Jehovah God, they are happy and hopeful because the Rider of the white horse will soon rein in the galloping red, black and pale horse along with “hades”! Jesus as its Rider will “complete his conquest” for it is written concerning His loving provision for the new world: “In his days the righteous one will sprout, and the abundance of peace until the moon is no more. . . . There will come to be plenty of grain on the earth; on the top of the mountains there will be an overflow.”—Rev 6:2, Psalm 72:7, 16; see also Isaiah 25:6-8.

Next:
“There will be great earthquakes” (Luke 21:11)


Not just earthquakes but “great earthquakes”. Is this true? What are the facts? Make a comparison before and after 1914. How many “great earthquakes” occurred before 1914 and at what rate and intensity? After 1914 what do the facts show? ATS has some great statistics of earthquakes which confirms the fact that since 1914 earthquakes around the world are ever increasing in great number with great intensity and magnitude. Is there any other time that this was/is true? Do you still doubt the authenticity and accuracy of the Bible? Only someone who refuses to see the truth will ignore the facts! I hope you’re not one.

earthquake.usgs.gov...
www.sristi.org...

Next...
“In one place after another pestilences” (Luke 21:11)

– can you name how many pestilences (diseases) that came up worldwide before 1914. Now compare it after 1914. What do the facts show?
Ever heard of bubonic plague? Spanish flu (claimed 20 million human lives in just a few months), STD’s, HIV/AIDS, H1N1 etc? Please show me a time where this happened?

en.wikipedia.org...

Next...
‘Increased lawlessness accompanied by a cooling off of love on the part of the greater number’ (Matt. 24:11, 12)

How’s the love of the many? The evidence again is quite clear! Why even mothers who have natural love towards their own children are murdering their own. What about the older generations – are they being shown respect by the younger generation? When was the last time somebody said ‘good day’ to you in the streets? Can you walk safely at night? In fact everybody is so busy with their lives that people are becoming more selfish. Even the ones who do good to their fellow man are not fully appreciated but taken advantage of. Ask your grandmother / grandfather how the people were when they were growing up? Compare it today – any difference? What about anarchy, riots, disregard for the laws of the land – increasing or decreasing?

Next...
“on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out ...Men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth” (Luke 21:25, 26)

Again before 1914 there was a time they called “the Golden era” and people were very optimistic of the future but after 1914 all changed for the worst and still getting worst – unless you disagree with this facts.

Let me quote to you what one survivor said about his generation:
German statesman Konrad Adenauer said:

“Thoughts and pictures come to my mind, . . . thoughts from the years before 1914 when there was real peace, quiet and security on this earth—a time when we didn’t know fear. . . . Security and quiet have disappeared from the lives of men since 1914.”


People living before 1914 thought that the future “would get better and better,” reported British statesman Harold Macmillan. The book 1913: America Between Two Worlds notes: “Secretary of State Bryan said [in 1913] that ‘conditions promising world peace were never more favorable than now.’

What do you think? Is there any other time when “on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out’ as ’Men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth”

Any idea how the leaders of the world will solved the ever worsening problems of the world? Is there any solution to the proliferation of nuclear weapons? Any idea when the next terror attack will happen? Where? Is this in the back of peoples mind? Can this be said before 1914? A global fear.

Do you disagree with this statement?

That fear is probably the biggest single emotion in people’s lives today. In fact not long after the exploding of the first nuclear bombs, atomic scientist Harold C. Urey said:


“We will eat fear, sleep fear, live in fear and die in fear.”
For much of humankind this is what is happening. And it is not simply because of the ever-present threat of nuclear warfare. People also fear crime, pollution, disease, inflation and many other things that threaten their security and their very lives.

You might say this is a doom and gloom message but on the contrary it is not. It is not for those serving Jehovah God and His designated King of kings – the Lord Jesus Christ, the Rider of the White Horse! It is not for those who have faith in the Bible as the Word of God! Instead of fear, true followers of Christ will become stronger and their faith validated and fortified. On the other hand what are critics offering?

Are you prepared to do battle against them? If critics are going to keep ignoring the facts and keep on despising his Word the Bible then they will be found “fighters against God” (Acts 5:39). It’s your choice and it’s a serious matter this trampling of the ‘blood’ of Christ.


‘Christ’s true followers to be objects of hatred by all nations on account of his name’ (Matt. 24:9)


cont...



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 01:07 AM
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...
True to the form – true followers of Christ are Hated! Treated as brainwashed and considered as fools by enemies of God. Sadly the so called “Christian Nations” are oftentimes themselves the persecutors in cahoots with unbelievers. The pages of history books testify to these facts. As a matter of fact Jesus followers were fiercely persecuted during their time. So true then so is today. True Christians will be persecuted for their faith.

Next..
‘This good news of the kingdom preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness’ (Matt. 24:14)

No other time in the world where the Word of God with its message of the “good news of the Kingdom” has not been heard worldwide. The modern communications has helped speed this up in an instant. Why this very word that I just typed traveled all over the world. Multiply that millions of times. It is no wonder that the Bible is the MOST widely circulated book in the world – bar none. For the record there’s no other group in the world that can claim to the fact just last year alone Jehovah’s Witnesses voluntarily spent more than 1.5 Billion hours spreading the “the good news of the Kingdom” and his King in 236 lands. I’m not sure about other organization’s records.

www.watchtower.org...

Next...
“But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here.” (2 Timothy 3:1-5)

As for the criticalness of our time – since 1914 the world is now facing a global economic hardship – if not a collapse, even a prediction of a third depression by some economist. Is there any doubt left about the state of the world? What about the young generations, have you seen kids growing up w/o conscience? To them taking life is just like a video game. What about respect for the elderly and parents? What do we see in the news daily?

It also says that people will pretend to be religious but “proving false to its power” – it’s just for show. Good only on Sundays but a totally different person on other days. Good only when others are looking but full of immorality in secret.

Next...

“For YOU know this first, that in the last days there will come ridiculers with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep [in death], all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.” (2 Peter 3:3-4)


This is self explanatory and the evidence is super abundant! This website alone is just one of the many proofs of this prophecy! How many of the critics here are ridiculing the Bible and its contents, especially in these last days? In fact there's even a terminology for it “Higher Criticism” – I hope you are not truly one these people mentioned here. Noah’s day come to mind.

Next...

“RUINING THE EARTH.” (Revelation 11:18.)
– Does the GOM Oil Leak remind you of this? IF not convinced yet check this out: en.wikipedia.org...

Is there any other time that this happened? Please let me know – I’d like to see it.

Then there are these that we are awaiting – the last prophecy:
Servants of Jehovah God are on the watch for this one so as not to get caught by surprised and wonder what to do next.

“Now as for the times and the seasons, brothers, YOU need nothing to be written to YOU. For YOU yourselves know quite well that Jehovah’s day is coming exactly as a thief in the night. Whenever it is that they are saying: “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly upon them just as the pang of distress upon a pregnant woman; and they will by no means escape.” (1 Thessalonians 5:1-3)

The U.N. will play a major role on this one. In the coming ‘days’ we will see a “cry” of/for “Peace and Security”. People will demand this – in fact it’s one of the “goals” of U.N.

www.whitehouse.gov...

But since we don’t know the exact time of its arrival, just like “a thief in the night”, true followers of Christ are admonished to “keep on the watch” (Matt 24:42,44). As for those w/o faith – it will come as a surprise. By then it will be too late as the following prophecy shows:

“for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short.” (Matthew 24:21-22)
Question to you: Are we living in that “Last Days” or not? Or is it still far off or was the prophecy referring to the past as some critics loved to point out?

Remember, these words were written a thousand years ago!!
Since 1914 are things getting better or getting worst? The facts show they are getting worst.

Are we heading towards great wealth, a Utopia or “THE GREAT TRIBULATION”? What do you think?

As for those who have TRUE Faith on the Bible, the Lord Jesus Christ gives these encouraging words:

“But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved” (Matthew 24:14)

How will you be able to endure though if you don't have faith? How will you have faith without accurate knowledge? How will you have accurate knowledge without knowing the Truth, how will you know the truth if you don’t believe that the Bible is the word of God? What a conundrum for critics.

Further admonition from the Lord Jesus Christ:

“But as these things
start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift your heads up, because your deliverance is getting near.” (Luke 21:28) Yes deliverance from a dying world into his new government – his Kingdom (Mat 6:9, Dan 2:44)


It is wise to take Jesus’ words to heart. Why? Because those having the approval of Jehovah God and “the Son of man,” Jesus Christ, have the prospect of surviving the end of Satan’s system of things and of living forever in the marvelous new world that is so close at hand!—John 3:16; 2 Peter 3:13.

Question: Can you show me a Book that is able predict the future with pinpoint accuracy - thousands of years in advance? At the same time offer a way out of the coming destruction. If you can’t there’s no shame in admitting it. All that is needed is humbly accepting it as the Word of God and study it with salvation in view.

I'll await ur reply.

ty,
edmc2



posted on Jun, 30 2010 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by edmc^2
 




Failed indeed to know the writers – what sort of men were they and the lessons we can learn from them – their successes and failures.


You don't know who the writers were either. Biblical scholars still debate to this day who really did the writing of each book. Christians don't really care about that debate for the most part, they are content with believing Moses and Daniel and David and King Solomon were all actually responsible for the books attributed to them.



Can you name a book that can do that?


Nope and neither can you. Though you'll claim the Bible does that such is FAR from the case. The Bible fails to predict the future with any specific prophecies.

You claim Matthew 24 is talking of WW1. Care to prove that. You can't. Jesus's statement is highly vague, all he mentions are kingdoms. Want to know something? Most of the nations involved in WW1 did not have kings and were not kingdoms. You relate ww1 to talk in Revelations about the War Horsemen but you are once again putting meaning where none is there to be found. You are GUESSING that the World Wars of the early 20th century go along with this figurative talk in Revelation.

Fail.

Next - food shortages, GASP and there were actual food shortages somewhere on Earth. Once again Jesus is vague and once again this could be applicable to ANY PERIOD IN HUMAN HISTORY. Somewhere on Earth at some point there is always a famine or a food shortage, one right after another.

Fail.



Before 1914 – there was abundance of food on earth


Really? Seems to me that there was far more food after 1914. You then directly contradict yourself a few sentences later:



Sadly food shortages are not due to lack of food


Face palm.



Can you point to a time where this happened and still happening? The facts are in front of us.


Death rates will always be high in third world countries but here in the Western world our life spans have shot up to an average of over 70 years. This was unheard of it if you study even recent history. Only a few centuries ago death came far earlier. Also you are ignoring events like the Black Plague that killed one third of Europe. I would say that at that time, with lifespan for even a "HEALTHY" human likely only hitting forty or fifty years and the Black Death wiping out everyone else Death was far more common. Time to push your fabricated horsemen back a few centuries if you ask me. The facts do not support you in the slightest. If Death, the horsemen, were running amok the birth rate across the world would be negative instead we saw a MASSIVE population BOOM after WW2. Sounds like the horsemen LIFE was one the prowl


FAIL.

Luke 21, great earthquakes, again vague nonsense based on superstition. Earthquakes mean God is angry is a primitive mindset.



ATS has some great statistics of earthquakes which confirms the fact that since 1914 earthquakes around the world are ever increasing in great number with great intensity and magnitude.


Because seismology and earthquake detection have become prevalent in the last 100 years. Before that time it was very hard to make accurate recordings of the strength and frequency of quakes. The increase in quakes is an increase in our ability and aptitude in detecting them. I find the paranoia on ATS about every little tremor very annoying. Earthquakes have a well understood natural cause but all I see are the same superstitious attitudes we see in the Bible.

Fail.

The rest of Luke 21, Pestilences. I point you back to the Black Plague again (you even mention in it as if it helps you). And what of diseases before that? There will and have always been diseases and "pestilences".

Fail.

Increased lawlessness:

Who's to say? Do you have accurate statistics from Jesus time showing how many offenders there were per capita? You have no reference point therefore you fail.



Why even mothers who have natural love towards their own children are murdering their own.


Infanticide was commonly practiced in the ancient world as was human sacrifice. Want proof of lots of child murdering, CHECK YOUR BIBLE.

EPIC FAIL.



That fear is probably the biggest single emotion in people’s lives today.


There are lot's of reasons for why this MIGHT be true. One of those, I'm sure, is the religious fear mongering about the end of days that goes on. 2012 doesn't help and the Media just makes it worse. BUT I wouldn't say fear is the biggest, certainly its there, certainly its a factor but you are attempting to diagnose the psyche of an entire WORLD with a blanket statement here. Sure there's some paranoid shut-ins afraid the world will get them but there are also a great MANY who live their lives relatively fear free. You have insufficient data to make blanket calls on the entire worlds primary emotional state and therefore you FAIL.



It is not for those serving Jehovah God and His designated King of kings – the Lord Jesus Christ


What a load of rubbish. You mean that you are perfectly okay with the idea that your God will punish people for the simple acts the Bible says they will go to Hell for? It doesn't bother you that the cowardly, all liars, and magicians will be sent to an infinite hell for a finite list of sins? The idea of eternal punishment for only one life time of sin is one of the most easily identifiable pieces of BS in the Bible, its absurd and an insult to the intelligence of every thinking being. If God is even half as merciful as a human being he would be incapable of the injustices described in Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible.

Matthew 24:9. The Christian persecution complex. Pathetic. Here in America the majority of the country is Christian. There are also other countries where Christianity is a majority, now sure they still get a bit of criticism in these places but you'd have to be a drama queen of epic proportions to complain that the tiny bit of chiding American Christians receive counts as being "hated". Until Christianity is a persecuted minority in EVERY country this prophecy can not be said to have come true. Also, without a way to determine which Christians count as true followers we again have no point of reference. Fail.



As for the criticalness of our time – since 1914 the world is now facing a global economic hardship – if not a collapse, even a prediction of a third depression by some economist


Once again the verse gives us no ideas how to determine is a time is critical other than the guess work that you've done. You are guessing at it because its vague and offers no answers



This is self explanatory and the evidence is super abundant! This website alone is just one of the many proofs of this prophecy!


Christians in Paul's day were a persecuted minority, it was a relatively new fringe religion. The early Christians all believed they were living in the last days and that Jesus would return for them in their life times. That is why they are called the last days, not the last years or last millenia.




The U.N. will play a major role on this one. In the coming ‘days’ we will see a “cry” of/for “Peace and Security”.


Way to just grab something and apply it to whatever you want.Hey wait, didn't Jesus preach peace quite a bit? He must have been part of those coming days. This is just so sad. The verse mentions nothing about a multinational group it just mentions people crying for peace. When has the human race, always at war as we are, ever not had a few people crying for peace? Fail.



Question to you: Are we living in that “Last Days” or not? Or is it still far off or was the prophecy referring to the past as some critics loved to point out?


Nope, we're not living the last days, or the last years. Chances are this planet will be here for another 4 billion years at least (and its already been here for 4.5).

The Bible has failed spectacularly, again.



Question: Can you show me a Book that is able predict the future with pinpoint accuracy


No and neither can you.

I declare your ignorance officially and irrevocably PWNED, not just denied, PWNED.



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