if Iran should not be helping Palestine, then America should not be helping Israel - Ron Paul

reply to post by Mdv2


Ron Paul turned off too many people with his kooky foreign policy ideas, like this one.

reply to post by Majorion


Well, yes the Israelis have nukes but they are not kooks. I have a very simple policy for nuclear weapons and it is, "No nukes for kooks."

The British, French, Russians, Chinese, and Indians all have nukes but I am not concerned too much about these countries. They are governed by people who have shown themselves to be responsible on the subject of nuclear weapons. They each have demonstrated (over decades) that they can possess nuclear weapons without using them.

I can't say that I would trust Iran to do the same. In fact I am sure that Iran would use nuclear weapons very shortly after developing them, especially if they could hide behind a terror group like Hamas or Hezbollah.

reply to post by Majorion


You just heard and saw one of the reasons. Ron Paul is a PATRIOT not a puppet.
This country has been taken over by the Rothschilds and their cabal, working in their favour is the fact that Americans have very little knowledge of history so they don't know about the Rothschilds fomenting dissension throughout Europe for 500 years and then profiteering by loaning money to both sides of the conflict and when acts like 911 occur they have no frame of reference in which to recognize these acts for what they truly are. They don't know about the treaty of Versailles which left Germany in ruins and starving after WW1 and the Jews moving in and taking over. Look up some real history of the era and then ask yourself how you would feel if you were German and your children were starving and you saw the Jews down the street eating and turning Berlin into a giant cabaret. There is also the mind set that "it can't happen here, this is America" which is patently false, but since the MSM has been under their control so firmly most people have never heard of the USS Liberty or the bombings in Egypt or that the day before his assassination JFK had signed into law a resolution to do away with the Federal Reserve.
At this point our presidents are selected for us long before the elections, cycling back and forth between the TWO parties whose only real difference is dogma, so that they can slowly erode our rights from one side or the other according to which dogma is the current law of the land. Ask yourself, "If they really were different would companies like Lehman Brothers et al donate to both parties(they have and did) or would they pick only the ONE(both) that serves their needs?"
So because to much outright voter fraud and manipulation would be to messy and complicated candidates like Ron Paul must be ignored by MSM and played off as "also-rans" because if they got any attention, they could throw a monkey wrench into the whole works.
People in power don't give it up willingly, IT MUST BE TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM! True power comes from a mandate of the masses so start telling every one you see to learn about the USS Liberty and the Federal Reserve. Once more eyes are opened they will lose our mandate and our implicit acceptance of their heinous acts and we will take our country back.

A TRUE PATRIOT SUPPORTS HIS COUNTRY ALL OF THE TIME AND HIS GOVERNMENT WHEN THEY DESERVE IT! Mark Twain

reply to post by CharlesMartel


I'm sorry I saw no reference to any policy statement kooky or not. Perhaps you are referring to something so insane and unthinkable as the thought that Americans' tax dollars should be used By Americans in America for American problems rather than sending them to an evil illegal nation so that they can practice genocide and blood sacrifice while stealing land that does not belong to them. Or maybe the preposterous idea that we should protect our borders to stop the influx of illegal aliens who are destroying our economy and looting our tax coffers. Or maybe it's the truly ridiculous idea that we should mind our own business and not go starting "police actions" or "regime changes" or invasions of monarchist states(Kuwait) to protect democracy. Or perhaps the farcical notion that our government should not be run by Zionist Jews who hold dual citizenship (Israeli-American) who clearly have the best interests of Israel in mind not America, and that Israel should be held accountable to the same laws as every other nation on Earth.

reply to post by lunarminer


Kooks, do you know anything about the Torah or the Talmud? Who would use them? Clearly you have no knowledge about who started the reign of terror throughout the middle-east and how the Israeli state came about and how it continues to grow. And as an aside perhaps you should look into the Balfour Declaration(how do two nations on the other side of the world give away land that does not even belong to them) and the lies and deception practiced by the British and Americans on the Arabs during and after WW1(ever heard of Laurence of Arabia, don't watch the movie, read his memoirs) then go a little further back and read some contemporary accounts of Palestine "the grain and fruit basket of the middle-east" going back 2000 years. The Jews lied and continue to lie when they say there was nothing and no one there!

reply to post by neves49


I know the history of the region and I have seen that history distorted by people on both sides of the argument.

If you don't think that colonial powers half a world away have any authority to create nations, then you don't support the creation of the nations of India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, Libya, Australia, New Zealand, the Phillipines, Indonesia, and Singapore.

Hmmm. Somehow I don't think that your case holds water there.

I would also point out that the state of Israel was not created by Great Britain, but was in fact created by the United Nations. Do you consider the UN to be an illegitimate body? I'll bet that you don't.

More importantly, I know the history of the area over the past 40 years. During this time we see the Palestinian movement becoming ever more radical and confrontational. While they strap bombs to their own kids. I consider this kind of behavior to be insane and those who practice it are both insane and evil. Unlike you, I cannot excuse anyone who would kill their own child for any reason.

On the subject of Iran, can you make an argument for me that shows them to be sane? I remember when the Ayatollah Komeni came back from exile. He was the darling of the western media for about a year.

Then he started talking about drinking his own urine to purify himself. He said that sex with a sheep or a goat was no sin and was better than laying with women. Then there were the executions, 50,000 people were killed in the first year of the Ayatollah's reign. That's more than the entire reign under the Shah, by about 10 times.

It didn't stop there either. The purges continued. Then they took diplomats hostage, not just US diplomats either. They attacked ships in international waters, not US ships either. Then they created Hezbollah to export terror.

The Iranian regime is the kooky gift that just keeps on giving. They are kooks, actually they are Kooks with a capital K. They do not deserve nukes and they cannot be trusted to handle them responsibly.

As I pointed out before, the other nuclear powers around the world have shown that they can handle nukes and that they have the maturity to not use them. I don't think that Iran fits that description. I also don't think that North Korea does either but at least the North Koreans don't have a reliable delivery system, yet.

reply to post by lunarminer


No I don't believe that "colonial powers" have the authority! Neither India nor Pakistan was "created" by the UN. The history of "colonial powers" meddling in that area is the cause of all the problems extant there today. I do not nor will I ever be in favor of killing my own kids. And if you really were aware of the 40 year history of the area you would know that it has been one of Israel lying and stealing and killing just like their God tells them to and then covering it up with propaganda just like you are spewing. Have you read Haaretz lately? Did you know that they admit(amongst themselves) that they violated the cease fire by assassinating three "targets of opportunity" or are you going to conveniently ignore that? Just like ignoring the fact that we (America) pushed for free elections in Palestine and when they elected Hamas it was decided that free elections, DEMOCRACY was a bad idea after all and that Israel should just kill them all.

I will also NEVER support the positions of a group of people who call me chattel and whose God calls for them to go forth unto other nations and slaughter them all man woman and child.

Read a book! Read a newspaper from somewhere else! Get a clue as to what is really going on. And consider that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and people for 2000 years have been calling it a duck and kicking it out of every country in which it has been given a chance and refused to assimilate, it's probably a duck.

The truth does not fear investigation!

reply to post by lunarminer


In addendum, who ensured through their impartial backing of a ruthless secular dictator that Iran would swing towards a radical Islamist state? We did! Who created the myth of Al Queda and gave it the press to become what it is? We did! Who created Noriega, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Mien, Marcos, etc. ad nauseum ? We did! And who created Hamas? Israel did, to be a counter to Yassir Arafat and now it's blown up in their faces! That's what happens when you lie, cheat and steal from your neighbours, they get pissed off!

And lest we forget, who made a deal with the "mad man" to get those hostages back and then lied about it? We Did!

[edit on 14-1-2009 by neves49]

NEVE, I sincerely hope that there are many more Americans who think as you because thats what your country needs. And before anyone tells you I'm Anti American I'm not. I don't kow tow to those who think that by speaking out against injustice, hatred and racism makes you unpatriotic a liberal, a Jew hater or anything else they care to label you with.

Getting back to the thread, the whole ME is such a complex issues but one theme runs right trough it, the continuing interference of the West mainly the UK/US. The other 3 leg of the axis of Evil Israel a state formed out of terrorism and terrorism that continues to this day should not be supported by others.

But as the perps have their grand plan there is yet more to come. A greater Israel, lets face i the West has no friends in the ME and the only one it does have and I use the term loosly is Israel. The bigger plan will be to enlarge Israel by taking land from neigbouring Arab nations making sure we get and control all the oil. We will also have a buffer between us and them Israel.

So there is going to be alot more of this, backing from the perps, and silence from the rest. One wonders whats going to happen when all thsi escalates into a wider conflict. And I do wonder just what is it going to take before the sheeple finally realise whats going on. But will they even care.

reply to post by magicmushroom


I'm guessing this was for me. I LOVE my country! I was raised to believe in everything "America stood for" Truth Justice and the American Way. Corny Superman stuff I know, but I still believe in "IT" just not our government which was highjacked by the bankers cabal and the Federal Reserve. I have not been on here long and I don't see you as "anti-American" anymore than I am.
Alexis DeToqueville wrote that "America is great because she is good! When she ceases to be good, she will cease to be great." I no longer believe that we are a force for good in the world. I believe that we the people are still a shining beacon to many, but our government and corporate policies throughout the world have served only to spread the image of "The Ugly American" Another very relevant quote I found recently is from Mark Twain- "A true patriot supports his country all the time and his government when they deserve it" America is based on standing up and speaking out about injustice and fighting for what is right. Now we have had "tolerance" shoved so far up our a**es that we will ignore anything. JFK was murdered and we heard about the "magic bullet" and an entire nation of hunters, who knew better, let it go. Israel tried to sink the USS Liberty and lied about it and our president said "let it go forget about it" and so we end up where we are today. Evil happens and people say "it's not my problem forget about it." Another quote, I don't know where this comes from " all it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to keep silent!" So stop tolerating anything that is wrong. Speak up, and I don';t just mean bitch about it to your friends. Say something where it matters. When you see someone going through the express lane with a basket full of stuff, don't ignore it embarrass them say something, and when given the opportunity to talk about Israel talk about the Liberty.
I got called away for a moment, so I would like to add that what I am writing about in the paragraph above are two ends of a spectrum and we should speak up about both and everything in between and speaking up should also include contacting your legislators maybe they don't pay attention to those letters now, but if enough people start writing they will be forced to realize that the sleeper has awoken and we are pissed off. This countries revolution was sparked by taxation without representation and I don't know about you but my pockets feel very light and I only hear Ron Paul saying anything that represents me.

[edit on 14-1-2009 by neves49]

reply to post by neves49


Wow, I must have really struck a nerve.

First of all, I would like to say that you need to go back and re-read what I wrote. I never said that India and Pakistan were created by the UN, they were in fact created by Great Britain, when that great colonial power decided ( the urging of the US) to divest itself of its colonial holdings. Something that they had the power to do and their cooperation in the matter gave legitimacy to the new governments formed.

As for the Palestinians, who you obviously are in favor of. I simply said that I cannot and will not excuse people who kill their own kids. Something that you were unable to refute. It is my opinion that a people who would sacrifice their own children are doomed to be destroyed.

It is not my intention to persuade you, I know that won't happen. You should also know that you will not persuade me. So, why bother? This type of thread goes on and on and on, and I see a new one created daily here on ATS. It gets to the point that its simply mental masturbation. The only problem with this type of "debate" is the almost total lack of debate.

As for reading a foreign newspaper, I do more than that, I travel internationally. I actually talk to people besides my immediate family and a friend or two. The issues here are complex and as I said, both sides have destorted the facts, you also my friend.

reply to post by lunarminer


Might makes right? Is that what you are saying? We can do it because we can force you to go along with it? That may be true, but that does not make it right. As far as killing children, it is the Israelis who are doing that right now and have been for some time within those prison walls. International travel, well my father has worked for our government all my life and after leaving home I continued to travel, speaking to others. To this date, I have lived, that is for a year or more in eight different countries on four different continents and have visited more than I will count up at this time. I also attended local schools in all of those countries and maintain contact with friends all over the world so I think I have a pretty good idea of world affairs. Am I pro Palestinian? Right now yes, because they are the ones who are being mistreated and slaughtered. There is no easy answer to this, but to blindly follow a nation with a history of terror, much longer, more heinous and particularly aimed at the US(USS Liberty, etc) seems to me to be the height of folly. Why don't you wake up and support humanity instead of Israel or Palestine or India or whoever. Picking sides in conflicts like this and then sticking with them no matter what evil they do is just plain wrong.

I would also like to add, since you seem to need to pick sides, which of those two groups has in the past and still today spied on the US more than any other nation on Earth, including the former USSR? Which one of them has tried to sink a US Naval vessel in a direct act of war and then lied about it? Which one of them has filled our government with dual citizens(spies) who contravene American policy and had the power to cover up so many of these incidents. Which one of them has made billions of dollars off of 911 and our mythical war on terror? And which groups official religious documents tell them that they are superior to all others and that they can do no wrong because every horror they commit is God's will because all others are merely animals, chattel to be misused, abused, or murdered at will with no sin on their hands? I don't know about you, but I take an instant dislike to anyone who betrays me or steals from me and my nation and my children and I can find a great fount of anger and indignation within myself for someone who gets in my face and says "I'm better than you cause God says so." It's very hard to find amity for someone who holds such double standards as they do.

[edit on 15-1-2009 by neves49]

reply to post by neves49


Yes, it's always the same thing with your type. USS Liberty, secret banking cabal, evil Jews, etc.

When was the last time that an Israeli hijacked an American airliner?

When was the last time that an Israeli strapped a bomb on his own kid and sent him to blow up a bus, a market, or a school?

When was the last time that an Israeli built a couple of rockets in his basement and then launched then over the border into Gaza?

When was the last time that an Israeli assassinated an American Presidential candidate?

When was the last time that an Israeli blewup an American compound?

When was the last time that an Israeli founded a charity designed to funnel money to terrorists?

The deathtoll of Americans at the hands of the Israelis is a few dozen.

The deathtoll of Americans at the hands of the Palestinians and their backers numbers in the thousands.

It is not I who have "chosen" a side. I happen to be on the sidelines and that makes me a target for those who really have chosen a side. The anti-American, anti-Western side.

reply to post by lunarminer

When was the last time that an Israeli built a couple of rockets in his basement and then launched then over the border into Gaza?

Israel need not build their own homemade petty rockets like Hamas, Israel are being supplied modern weaponry from the U.S. And for the record, they're still using these weapons and armaments to kill hundreds of innocent civilians.

When was the last time that an Israeli assassinated an American Presidential candidate?

JFK ring a bell? .. maybe you should research more about the mossad, and their joint ops with the CIA.

reply to post by Majorion


So I take it that launching rockets at innocent Israeli civilians is OK with you?

Over 3000 rockets launched this past year. I don't know about you but if a bunch of Mexican's were launching rockets over our southern border and killing innocent people, then I would demand that our US Government use military force to stop it.

I am not saying the the Israeli's are innocent, but their actions are justified as long as the missiles continue to be launched. The missile launching continued, by the way, through the entire "ceasefire" hmmm. That is some kinda ceasefire.

As for the death of JFK, I have heard so many different conspiracy theories on this that I am beginning to think that I am the only person in the entire country who did not know about it, or help plan it.

The Israelis would have had absolutely no motive to take a shot at JFK. So, I'll pass on this one.

To state that the Israelis are not innocent but then go on to support them defies credulity. Either you against crime or your for it you cannot have it both ways. The Israelis at the moment are commiting crimes against humanity, they know it and so does everyone else. To say that they are defending themselves is a complete and blatant lie and nothing more.

As for what as Israel done, Assasinations, mass killings, illegal wars, 9/11, formed Hamas, used terrorrism to form its nation and uses it to this day. Oh yes the Israelis have plenty of blood on their hands and they know it.

reply to post by lunarminer

I am not saying the the Israeli's are innocent, but their actions are justified as long as the missiles continue to be launched. The missile launching continued, by the way, through the entire "ceasefire" hmmm. That is some kinda ceasefire.

That's because there never really was a ceasefire, Hamas responded to the Israeli assassination program the day the ceasfire(supposedly) ended. The Palestinians get killed, harassed, and violated by the Israelis every day of the year anyways.

The Israelis would have had absolutely no motive to take a shot at JFK. So, I'll pass on this one.

No motive you say? .. ever heard of JFK's plans to stop Israel being a nuclear power? .. I take it you'll say that Clinton's scandal with that Jewish prostitute during a time of him getting close to establishing peace in the region was also a coincidence?

BTW, the poster called 'magic mushroom' also wrote lots of good points.

[edit on 15/1/09 by Majorion]

Well I just dont know who Ron Paul thinks he is trying to inject reason and logic and good business sense into American politics.

No wonder he was a non-starter in the election.


(That was sarcasm folks)

Originally posted by lunarminer


I am not saying the the Israeli's are innocent, but their actions are justified as long as the missiles continue to be launched. The missile launching continued, by the way, through the entire "ceasefire" hmmm. That is some kinda ceasefire.

Who violated the agreement is a matter of who you listen to.



According to this woman, it is NOT Hamas who broke the agreement. Things arent as clear cut when one looks closely as some might like to assume.

reply to post by lunarminer


My type? Which type is that? The type who is a patriotic American who wants to hold his nation's leaders accountable for their actions and is tired of taxation without representation, or the type who just doesn't like being lied to and propagandized, or maybe the type that sees human carnage on that scale as sick and inhumane. Or maybe I'm just one of the type who knows that the Federal Reserve is a giant swindle perpetrated upon the American taxpayers by a group of JEWISH bankers. As far as the rest of your questions I will get back to you with exact dates for such things as the Lavon incident and the bombing of the embassy in Egypt and the Israeli who tried to highjack a plane to Cuba back in the 70's and we all know the date of JFK's assassination and he was killed for trying to shut down the Fed. But it is all so much fluff because you "know" it all and if things were your way it would be a Zionist world and when the Mossad came to rape your wife and the Rebbis came to enslave your kids you would be ok with that because they told you they are God's chosen people and that "He said it's OK to do whatever we want to you because after all you are only an animal"

I would also like to add that I am the type who gets really pissed off when a foreign nation who calls us a friend and ally betrays us and commits a deliberate act of war and then gets the whole thing covered up. I also get really pissed when someone treats that act flippantly and dismisses it. So yes I will continue to bring up the USS Liberty every chance I get until something is done about it like, we go to war with Israel and turn the whole place into the world's largest glass ashtray

TO HELL WITH THE ALAMO REMEMBER THE LIBERTY!

[edit on 15-1-2009 by neves49]