Are ATS members SMARTER than Congress?

Back in the fall, we debated the Bailout Bill, prior to it's ramrod passage. The thread is here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...
In that thread, many of us who took the time to read the entire draft of the bailout bill, pointed out that there was really no accountability for the bailout funds, and that the only "checks and balances" was a very wishy washy statement that said that the Secretary of the Treasury had the authority to make sure executive compensation was not excessive, and he had the authority to disburse the funds as he sees fit.

Well, now of course, we all know that the first $350 billion has basically disappeared, and virtually none of it went towards helping those with mortgage problems, and foreclosures.

The finger-pointing has begun. Barney Frank says it's the fault of the Secretary of the Treasury, which as the bill is written, is partially true.
Here is what is going on now:

www.nctimes.com...

The Treasury Department earlier Thursday sent Congress its latest update on the bailout program. The report showed that the government has disbursed $266.9 billion so far, including $187.5 billion provided to banks in an effort to get them to resume more normal lending and $19.4 billion for the auto industry. Critics contend the Bush administration has failed to impose enough conditions on the money it has provided to banks to ensure that the financial institutions are using the new resources to boost lending. In his remarks, Kashkari said that as confidence starts to improve, Treasury expects to see financial institutions step up their lending. Treasury also is working on ways to keep better track of whether banks are boosting their lending after receiving the financial assistance. "The increased lending that is vital to our economy will not materialize as fast as any of us would like, but it will happen much faster as a result of deploying resources" from the rescue program, Kashkari said. The government has purchased stock in 214 banks in 41 states and Puerto Rico, with Treasury staff and officials at the bank regulatory agencies working to review thousands of pending requests for assistance, he said. "Our work will not let up until the last application has been reviewed and processed," Kashkari said. Those reviews would take place "over the next few months" with the help of a staff of 90 ---- most of whom are career employees, not political appointees ---- working for the financial rescue program, he added. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson said last month that with the decision to provide support to the auto industry, the government had committed the first $350 billion of the bailout fund. He said Congress should authorize release of the second $350 billion. But House Financial Services Committee Chairman Barney Frank, D-Mass., said in a memo to House members on Wednesday that he believed the second $350 billion should be governed by a set of principles he was proposing that seek to address congressional unhappiness with how the Bush administration had operated the program. Frank said he would seek congressional passage of legislation that would impose new conditions, including substantial efforts to reduce mortgage foreclosures and a better method to track whether banks are using the money they receive to boost lending. Frank said in the memo, a copy of which was obtained by The Associated Press, that he was putting forward his proposal "because there has been widespread unhappiness with the failure of this administration to use any of the first $350 billion for mitigation of foreclosures and because money given to banks under this program flowed with virtually no strings attached."

Would we have allowed a bill to pass that gave all the power to one person to use the funds as he sees fit? Well, look at the first thread I referenced.

Let's try to keep partisanship out of this. I believe that both sides are 100% to blame, the Administration and Congress.

Now, I ask this simple question. Were we ATS members smarter than Congress when it came to the bill as it was written and voted on?

Second question: What now?

Answer to the first Q. Yes.

Answer to the second Q....dig deeper into our wallets for money that isnt there.

Solution....replace the congress.



Cheers!!!!

I'd say the majority of members here are much more intelligent than members of Congress. At least the majority of people here possess critical thinking skills and tend to read things before jumping on the bandwagon. (Well, in most cases anyway.)

As for solutions, I think a good start would be if people STOP voting the same morons back in every election. How exactly does anyone think that anything will change if they vote for the exact same people every single time an election comes around? And then they wonder why things don't get better and why Congress comes up with half-baked ideas? Come on now people, we can do better than this.

reply to post by RFBurns

Answer to the first Q. Yes. Answer to the second Q....dig deeper into our wallets for money that isnt there. Solution....replace the congress.

I agree. My concern is that we had that opportunity in November, and only 8 of the Congressional members that voted for the bill were voted out.

USA is a corrupt murderous crumbling empire that will soon disintegrate ,GOD WILLING

God please bankrupt USA

Mod Note: Please stay on Topic – Review This Link.

[edit on Fri Jan 9 2009 by Jbird]

Maybe we should try and present a bill that requires anything to do with tax payer dollars be posted on this board for scrutiny and then let congress read the majority of concerns for it before even thinking about passing it.

I'm serious on that we have the technology lets put it to good use for once.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Darthorious]

reply to post by Jenna

I'd say the majority of members here are much more intelligent than members of Congress. At least the majority of people here possess critical thinking skills and tend to read things before jumping on the bandwagon. (Well, in most cases anyway.) As for solutions, I think a good start would be if people STOP voting the same morons back in every election. How exactly does anyone think that anything will change if they vote for the exact same people every single time an election comes around? And then they wonder why things don't get better and why Congress comes up with half-baked ideas?

I think you, RFBurns and I all agree. The problem is that ATS members are only a small, but educated, part of the general populace. The vast majority of the voters get their information from the MSM, and they lied through their teeth about the bill, parroting what Congress and the Admin said, namely that there were checks and balances in the bill. That, as we know, was an absolute lie.
Now the question becomes, was Congress just stupid, or did they knowingly pass the bill without checks and balances, to give money to their friendly bankers and wall street crooks?

reply to post by sadchild01

USA is a corrupt murderous crumbling empire that will soon disintegrate ,GOD WILLING God please bankrupt USA

What does your response have to do with the question? Do you wish to answer it, or start a new thread?

reply to post by Darthorious

Maybe we should try and present a bill that requires anything to do with tax payer dollars be posted on this board for scrutiny and then let congress read the majority of concerns for it before even thinking about passing it. I'm serious on that we have the technology lets put it to good use for once.

You know, you're on to something. I doubt whether Congress would go for letting just us view it, however, we do have the technology to distribute and even allow votes online, with the proper security.
Of course, that presupposes that Congress would REALLY WANT our opinion.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by sadchild01

 

USA is a corrupt murderous crumbling empire that will soon disintegrate ,GOD WILLING God please bankrupt USA

What does your response have to do with the question? Do you wish to answer it, or start a new thread?

I don't think he actually read the thread had he read the op's statement he would already know the US is well past bankrupt and the reason why the op started the thread in the first place.

Originally posted by ProfEmeritus
reply to post by Darthorious

 

Maybe we should try and present a bill that requires anything to do with tax payer dollars be posted on this board for scrutiny and then let congress read the majority of concerns for it before even thinking about passing it. I'm serious on that we have the technology lets put it to good use for once.

You know, you're on to something. I doubt whether Congress would go for letting just us view it, however, we do have the technology to distribute and even allow votes online, with the proper security.
Of course, that presupposes that Congress would REALLY WANT our opinion.

Voting would end up in controversy and hacks etc.

However being able to present the majority consensus would at least get some air time on the news and maybe inform the people a bit better plus no ones getting paid to say whatever assuming it was locked to only current members.

I just think at least a few more Ron Pauls on the news might get people thinking a bit more so to speak and maybe pay more attention to what is really being passed.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Darthorious]

reply to post by ProfEmeritus


I wouldn't necessarily say we are smarter, but rather we understand being the taxpayer that our money is going to the "cause". Our money is helping the rich.

They don't care one way or another about our money, as long as it helps them.

just my 2 cents.

Yes, most members of ATS are smarter than Congress.

What now?

Buckle up for the ride. There really isn't anything we can do. All the third parties that run always want to run before they can crawl and go for the presidency instead of spending 15 to 20 years working their way into the system to be a viable alternative.

Although there are some people that are smart in congress I think a more appropriate term for our congress critters is criminal minded.

Criminal minded people aren't smart they just spend time to figure out how to get around the laws.

reply to post by Darthorious

I just think at least a few more Ron Pauls on the news might get people thinking a bit more so to speak and maybe pay more attention to what is really being passed.

I couldn't agree more. If the MSM had listened to Ron Paul in the first place, we wouldn't be going through this financial mess. At this point, I'm afraid that there is a lot more suffering to come. More and more experts are starting to use the "D" word to describe the situation.

There's certainly plenty wrong with Congress. But the bailout was jammed through Congress by an Administration that told them --- in no uncertain terms --- that if the bailout was not done and not done immediately there would be a financial armageddon that would bring the entire banking system down. Most of you probably remember the reaction of Congressmen after closed-door meetings. There were threats of potential martial law.

I know for a fact after speaking with a Congressman that was directly involved, that there simply wasn't the time to hammer-out specific monitoring or oversight language. Doing so would have delayed the bill and, they were assured, would have resulted in almost certain economic collapse. Remember, the Administration only a few months earlier had assured everyone that 'the economy is fundamentally sound'. And now they were screaming imminent disaster.

Not to defend Congress but they were forced into cobbling together a bill that would pass quickly. They did add language relative to accountability and oversight (that the Administration did not want and that was not included in the original 'plan' submitted by Hank 'Trust Me' Paulson). Elizabeth Warren's review panel has stated that Treasury just ignored what provisions were included in the bill that directed how the money was to be spent.

So yea, Congress --- and most of the rest of government as far as I'm concerned --- are useless. But it would appear that the blame for this part of the debacle rests squarely on the administration and most specifically Paulson and Treasury. They essentially extorted tax payer money out of Congress; agreed to the terms of its use; and then ignored those terms and distributed the money as they saw fit without any paper trail or accountability. Even the most junior person in business would ensure that there was some measure of accountability. There is no way this was some colossal 'woops'. This was malfeasance. This was the DC-connected elite raiding the Treasury with Paulson et al's help plain and simple.


[edit on 9-1-2009 by jtma508]

The answer is an unequivocal yes. The problem is that this is not something to take pride in; after all it is like comparing the intelligence of a dolphin to sea plankton.

What really needs to be changed is the congressional election laws. Right now, a senator, or house of reprentative, can stay in office indefinately. There are no term limits. That needs to be changed!! Term limits in the United States

I think that any congress official elected to office should only have a 4 year term, just like the presidency. And limited to 2 terms maximum, just like the presidency.

Some of those congress people have been there for decades!!! There was one that finally retired some years ago who was something like 93 years old and was first elected to congress back in the late 30's!!!!

So the structure of the term system for congress really needs to be revised and changed. I think that is the first step.

List of service terms pdf format HERE

Its time for TLC in Congress!



Cheers!!!!

[edit on 9-1-2009 by RFBurns]

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

Yes, both Tarbox and you seem to be saying the same thing, that more than stupidity, it is criminal mindedness that Congress is afflicted with.

It reminds me of a wise saying that a German General once said:

I divide my officers into four classes; the clever, the lazy, the industrious, and the stupid. Most often two of these qualities come together. The officers who are clever and industrious are fitted for the highest staff appointments. Those who are stupid and lazy make up around 90% of every army in the world, and they can be used for routine work. The man who is clever and lazy however is for the very highest command; he has the temperament and nerves to deal with all situations. But whoever is stupid and industrious is a menace and must be removed immediately![

source:en.wikipedia.org...

I think Congress falls into the last category.

reply to post by jtma508

I know for a fact after speaking with a Congressman that was directly involved, that there simply wasn't the time to hammer-out specific monitoring or oversight language. Doing so would have delayed the bill and, they were assured, would have resulted in almost certain economic collapse.

True, but as I said, I'd like to keep partisanship out of it. Both the Admin and Congress are to be, in my opinion.
Furthermore, how much time would it have taken to put in a statement in the bill that said:
"Congress directs that 80% (pick a number) of the funds must be used to provide mortgage assistance to citizens"

A lot of people on here are smarter than Congress. It's not smarts that are lacking though. It's common sense and compassion for the average tax payer that are lacking.

Two out of three politicians that I voted for here in the great state of Oklahoma, voted for the bailout plan. I wrote them and got the usual response, which, in essence, stated that they appreciated me taking the time to write but, they voted for what they thought was best. To sum it up, they truly think they know better than me how to spend my money.

They have no interest in what our opinions are. Until they get the rug pulled out from under them, like so many of us have had happen, our opinions are moot.

One good thing to come of this (if you can call it that) is that I have done some serious pondering on whether or not they'll get my vote the next time. To be honest, they probably won't.