A spy steals secrets and gives them to an unauthorized recipient.

Therefore, you can't be a spy and deliver US secrets to Israel.

The proper term is 'courier', or emissary, or ambassador.

However, if you get caught giving secrets to Israel, then you have to say 'The gig is up, you caught me, I'm a spy, I stole these. I'll give them back, here they are.'

What ever you do -- Do Not -- Elect me as President... my first action will be to drop smart bombs on London City Centre - followed with a full blown engagement with Isreal.... not for 911 ... for the Sailors that were murdered in thier life rafts...

if Isreal wants war ... they are going to have to build their own weapons.

Originally posted by Harman
[The soldiers of the US are the brunt of the Western force in the middle-east.

You are right in what you say and i'm not fingerpointing as in being mad or judgemental, it's just that the bullets as they are shot now come from a certain direction and it points to the US.

I agree that in this moment the US is playing policeman. However, if we were not, would policing stop? Or would the wealthy simply hire someone else? That is my argument for not pointing fingers but rather to look at the whole dynamic. If the US were to absolutely and utterly remove itself from the conflict in the middle east there would be a very short period of time before another military force was assembled to fill that role. The business interests that want an Israel, (and they care much less about the Jews than they do the fact that there be a bastion of what passes for "capitalism" in the middle east to allow them to extract resources) would simply find another group of mercenaries to fill that role.

Bashing on the US is a mistake because it focuses on a symptom of the problem rather than the problem itself. Which in essence is the desire to be better, have more, to dehumanize others for self aggrandizement. We call this a lot of things. "Greed" "power mongering" etc. But it is also apparent even in the act of criticizing one group while pretending superiority on the part of another. This is OUR problem. Yours and ours, and everyones. We need to ask if we can find another way to live that recognizes the inherent value and failings of all humans rather than one that seeks to elevate some at the expense of others.

Clearly, in light of the failed experiments in "communism" we do not have a method at present for doing this. Even in that system the same problem reared its ugly head with those in "charge" (and I mean those who were supposed to be entrusted with equitable distribution) again taking the opportunity to aggrandize themselves at the expense of those not in a position to stop them.

Originally posted by Harman
Everybody talks about what happens at the other side of the pacific but in Europe it is much, much worse in respect of indoctrination by the educational system, media and the stranglehold of the banks. You still have a chance (no matter how slim) to wrestle out of it without changing laws and just defaulting back on the declaration, here? Not so much.

In this you may be right. I can see how wasted opportunity would make some annoyed at the American people. But the fact is you have to really LOOK at how conflict arises and how human beings actually operate psychologically to find a way to change this. Isolating and attacking the people here, will only make us (collectively not every individual) more certain that the "them and us" mindset is the correct one. This compounds the problem, enables it, it does nothing at all to alleviate it. It is the same whether it is countries doing it, or races , or genders, or individuals. Where one perceives attack there will be defense and counter attack. No one wants to think that they are "bad" and so criticism of a hostile nature will always bring denial particularly when accompanied by an attitude of superiority on the part of the criticizer, even if there is some truth to the criticism.

We have to find another way. We need to identify within ourselves and our nations the specific individual elements that are creating the problem and we need to work to remove them. (or more accurately render them harmless to the whole) In short, we need to remove the beams from our eyes rather than look at the splinter in the eye of our neighbors. We can do this by asking "Who is benefiting from the way things work now?" It isnt you, nor I, nor most of the worlds population. It isnt a specific nation or race, it is a specific personality type that every nation or race has a subset of. People within each group in whom this propensity for self aggrandizement far exceeds the normal portion allotted to all humans. In whom it is a pathology. Our leaders, in other words.

Plato had a solution. People of certain character must be appointed to lead, and there must be societal safeguards in place to ensure that the natural tendencies even in these less "selfish" individuals not be allowed to overwhelm them. (As power corrupts even that which is less corruptible by nature.) What made Plato great was that he was not in denial about human nature, even in himself, and he designed a system that would allow human nature to operate within a constraint so that human nature brought out the best of us, rather than the worst.

Whether his proposal were adopted or not, what needs to be done, everywhere, by humanity as a whole is for us to take a real and unbiased look at ourselves our own nature, and the societal constructs we have created and ask ourselves "Is this really working?"

The answer depends on what conditions you think the whole of humanity should endure. What we have now works brilliantly for some, but for the majority it is a colossal failure. And the costs of this system keep rising generation after generation, and they do not have to. It is not necessary for us to live this way. We DO all of us, have a natural predisposition for self aggrandizement. But that is not all we have. We also have a capacity for compassion, using reason, planning, justice, and are one of the most cooperative mammals on the planet. Now we need to revamp our societal construct in order to maximize our strengths and minimize our natural HUMAN weaknesses.

Edit for clarity.

[edit on 8-1-2009 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by Res Ipsa
...would it be inappropriate for me to call you people lazy?
nothing is as black and white as you all portray it. "America has done nothing but...." what kind of BS generalization is that? Really?
The news is worthless? Main stream media? All of it? Can't you take the time to pick out the truth from the lies or does that take too much work? Are people either bad or good and are they that all the time?
Your...and I mean all of you that have posted so far, have expressed narrow sound byte drivel, without acknowledging the complexity of the human condition just like a politician does.
The OP asked a good question, why do we support Israel and seem to give them a blank check on everything. How do we tolerate their spies.
Some do it because they are our proxy in the middle east. Some do it because the Bible says to do it and that God blesses those that protect his people and curse those that don't. (yeah, get a politician to admit that) Some people believe that if Israel goes then the end of times is upon us. Some people in high places are from Israel and even have dual citizenship and have held high government offices while holding this dual citizenship. Some do it to piss off the Muslims and Iran.
Some do it for all of the above reasons too. But what answer are you looking for?
My objective observation is that I am amazed that a group of people could be so hated for what 2000 years? That certainly doesn't hurt the case of perhaps thinking they might be a special group of people. I am not superstitious and I certainly don't take the Bible literally nor believe everything that is in there but I admit that I am one of those people that have to throw my hat in with the Jews and Israel. Maybe if they were just another ordinary race or country or group of people then I wouldn't, but my normal rational thinking self seems to be submissive when it comes to them. I mean I really can't stand the thought of giving some foreign country's spy a pass. I think it is even possible that some of them were in on 9/11. But even as I sit here in unexpected conflict, I honestly feel a loyalty to them.......now aint that some sheet. Not where this post was going but I'm leaving it as is. I feel as loyal to Israel as if it were the 51st state. I also feel like I am at an AA meeting and just introduced myself and said I was an alcholic......well, I am going to figure out why this is and if my early Christian indoctrination is responsible for this illogical position.
....um...excuse me now.

Damn I love it when you post and I agree and i HATE it when you post and I don't agree. Most of your posts I have had the good fortune of learning a thing or two and believe me, sometimes it was a hard pill to swallow as I am stubborn like that but when someone knows how to construct a logical argument while admitting he is at the mercy of a human intuition and unexplained gut feelings that I guess for me explain the same way I felt while reading your post and completely agreeing with it. I am convicted by you in some of the issues so many of us are guilty of here and I pray for a measure of some of that drop dead objectivity you possess and the logical mind to distinguish fact from fiction and real events from fantasy.

Thanks again for a great read and for yet another lesson in my path for surviving this life with as few of my own self delusions as possible including those I might accept from others had it not been for this post.

You make a dent Res,, and someone here felt it was worth making it public. So in keeping with that announcement, Ill say

Thank you