Paul ~ Inventing a new saviour

reply to post by justamomma


I am lost by what you said at the end of that sentence, but Jesus was the word made flesh, the living word of God. The prophets were not the word! They spoke it, there is a big difference. Jesus was not a prophet but the divine. Jesus spoke the word and grasped and understood it so well because he IS the Word! I cannot explain it any simpler than that..

Originally posted by justamomma




Were you all even aware that the promised messiah was to be of the lineage of David and not by the mothers line, but by the line of the father?

Did you know that the only begotten Son is said to have a mother who was a Hittite and a father who was a Amorite? Did you know also that the promised messiah that is prophesied in Isaiah is said to be born of the two afore mentioned nations?

Come on! Jesus was the lie... the man was the lie. The truth is greater than you will even G.d credit for and He (G.d) does NOT break any laws!

He IS picking the snake (the deception) back up by the tail and turning it BACK into the staff (the law) to show the world that He alone is the ONLY true G.d... the G.d of Israel! Do you really want to be on the other side of that to realize the truth? It is all there written before you so that you will have no excuse to have fallen for the lie. It is the truth.


[edit on 22-1-2009 by justamomma]

Yes. It's clear that the agenda in those days was to make Jesus the conceptual Messiah of Hebrew lore. To accomplish this, they started the New Testament with Matthew's dumb geneology. The geneology traces through the line of Joseph. But then, it is said the Jesus was not the son of Joseph, so the whole listing of "begots" was a moot point! They were also trying to say Jesus was the fulfillment of a virgin birth prophecy. So, in attempting to reconcile the irreconcilable [magic], they make a mockery.

I am of the opinion that Joseph was Jesus earthly father. However, Jesus insisted that no man was his father. This probably led some to believe he was born of a virgin, which may have led them to believe he was the fulfillment of the virginbirth prophecy. But there may have been no such prophecy when one reads the original text. It just talks about a young woman giving birth. Nothing unusual about that.

When Jesus said, "I am the Truth" he was not talking about manhood or son of man- hood. He was speaking in the first person as the Holy Spirit, the Savior of the world. He spoke in the first person because the Holy Spirit teaches each one of equality and oneness. Jesus was a student of the truth, who, through the teaching of the Holy Spirit, merged with the Truth which saves the wayward mind of the prodigal son. One who is taught by the Holy Spirit becomes the Holy Spirit. And in knowing and experiencing the Truth as Self, one is saved from self-concepts.


Christ!



[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Christ!

 

I do agree that what you say in general is true. But I think we disagree on the reasons and purpose behind it.

There is a reason we purposely take on limited knowledge.

We have a disagreement about whether it is necessary to take on limitations. When knowledge is limited, it becomes nOt knowledge. It becomes the experience of the unknown. And we call an accumulation of experience, "knowledge". And i just don't buy it. To me, this is a temptation. I define temptation as what tempts us to see ourSelves as less than, or other than what we Are. So, for example, to see ourselves as bodies is...a temptation. We think we are gathering some info of value that we can somehow take back to the totality of knowledge and make it complete. And we disagree on whether our accumulation of experiences is valuable to the extent that we would want to keep it, in addition to what we already have...the totality of knowledge. I suggest that unless we have faith that we already have the totality of all that can truly be known, we will block our return home and perpetuate the experiences of the "Old Testament"...the law of separation...and the lies for feelings that it generates. I am suggesting that the reason we feel we may be gaining from our search of the unknown is the same kind of reasoning that begins our search beyond Self in the first place...and so perpetuates the search beyond Self for more than Self. That is why i say that the search merely satisfies curiosity. It answers a question, "What if everything was different?". I suggest that to reach beyond totality is to reach for nothing. And this effectuates the "loss" [sacrifice] of everything, at least conceptually.

Christ!

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]



[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by Christ!


I'm pretty sure the "virgin birth" is actually talking about when you realize that consciousness is of the father, and that it is the consciousness inside you which you truly are, not your body. And so when you realize this, then you realize you are only born of the father, not your body which is born of the physical by your parents. Thus also explains why you should call nobody else father and so on, as Jesus says.

And so, then when you realize this, you are "born again", born from the virgin and so on.

As such, Jesus can still be from the line of Joseph physically, while still being born of the virgin at the same time. Just as you are. Still physically born from your dads line, but when you are born again you realize who your true father is through spirit.

I know some will bring up Joseph knowing he wasn't his son and so on. This could have meant that Jesus wouldn't recognize him as his father, as Jesus would know the truth and say so, which could be a difficult thing for any parent. Imagine if you went and told your parents you do not recognize them as your parents. They would be crushed! Not sure, but it makes sense to me.



[edit on 22-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Christ!
We have a disagreement about whether it is necessary to take on limitations. When knowledge is limited, it becomes nOt knowledge. It becomes the experience of the unknown. And we call an accumulation of experience, "knowledge". And i just don't buy it. To me, this is a temptation. I define temptation as what tempts us to see ourSelves as less than, or other than what we Are. So, for example, to see ourselves as bodies is...a temptation. We think we are gathering some info of value that we can somehow take back to the totality of knowledge and make it complete. And we disagree on whether our accumulation of experiences is valuable to the extent that we would want to keep it, in addition to what we already have...the totality of knowledge. I suggest that unless we have faith that we already have the totality of all that can truly be known, we will block our return home and perpetuate the experiences of the "Old Testament"...the law of separation...and the lies for feelings that it generates. I am suggesting that the reason we feel we may be gaining from our search of the unknown is the same kind of reasoning that begins our search beyond Self in the first place...and so perpetuates the search beyond Self for more than Self.

Christ!

To be in the perspective of the father is to know all, and for all of creation to be static and never changing. The father never see's change. Thus why you are never seen as evil/bad by the father, because he see's your whole, from start to finish.

However, surely you must realize the joy of learning. The excitement of learning things for the first time. And so I believe it is the journey itself that is the entire point. You take on limited knowledge to feel the joy of learning it for the first time again. If you were to have to learn how to ride your bike again, you might fall down a few times, but that is part of the excitement for the first time you do so.

Remember as the child how exciting everything was? Happy to just play with a cardboard box. As an adult you've done all that. Things are already known and learned. The excitement is gone.

Things don't just happen randomly or for no reason. As such, there is a reason why the father(all knowing) becomes the son/daughter(limited knowledge/perspective).

Originally posted by badmedia
reply to post by Christ!

 

I'm pretty sure the "virgin birth" is actually talking about when you realize that consciousness is of the father, and that it is the consciousness inside you which you truly are, not your body. And so when you realize this, then you realize you are only born of the father, not your body which is born of the physical by your parents. Thus also explains why you should call nobody else father and so on, as Jesus says.

And so, then when you realize this, you are "born again", born from the virgin and so on.

As such, Jesus can still be from the line of Joseph physically, while still being born of the virgin at the same time. Just as you are. Still physically born from your dads line, but when you are born again you realize who your true father is through spirit.

I know some will bring up Joseph knowing he wasn't his son and so on. This could have meant that Jesus wouldn't recognize him as his father, as Jesus would know the truth and say so, which could be a difficult thing for any parent. Not sure, but it makes sense to me.

Jesus was noted as saying "Leave your father and mother...and follow me". When he said "me" he was speaking in first person as the Holy Spirit, the Teacher of salvation for the whole world. Jesus layed down his "liFe" as a "son of man" to merge with the Holy Spirit, who represents the Son of God in the world for the purpose of his salvation.

So yes, while he may have had an earthly father, the truth of the matter is that he still had no "father" except *Our Father*. Since that is the truth, it overrides all appearance of human geneology. For that matter, "call no man father" also means, "call no woman mother". Jesus was noted for calling Mary "woman". I suggest this is in keeping with the truth, however anyone felt about it. Its all part of staying true to the truth and becoming single minded without compromise. When it is understood that human geneology is a form of denial of *Our Father* we are more willing to make our words line up with our intentions to be one again with the Truth of our Sonship.

Christ!

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by justamomma

 

I am lost by what you said at the end of that sentence, but Jesus was the word made flesh, the living word of God. The prophets were not the word! They spoke it, there is a big difference. Jesus was not a prophet but the divine. Jesus spoke the word and grasped and understood it so well because he IS the Word! I cannot explain it any simpler than that..

Jesus was NOT the Word.. That is the image that will keep you trapped and blind to seeing that the Word, aka the Son of man HAS returned. You look for a man. Everyone is so willing to trust men... why is no one willing to trust G.d anymore??? You want the physical.. and the physical leads only to death! G.d is not physical.. He uses the physical to teach us... but we worship the physical.. it is silly logic.

How will you know Jesus? You have never met Him. Unless you know the Word, you will fall. The Word is not confined to flesh and blood.



[edit on 22-1-2009 by justamomma]

Originally posted by badmedia
To be in the perspective of the father is to know all, and for all of creation to be static and never changing. The father never see's change. Thus why you are never seen as evil/bad by the father, because he see's your whole, from start to finish.

However, surely you must realize the joy of learning. The excitement of learning things for the first time. And so I believe it is the journey itself that is the entire point. You take on limited knowledge to feel the joy of learning it for the first time again. If you were to have to learn how to ride your bike again, you might fall down a few times, but that is part of the excitement for the first time you do so.

Remember as the child how exciting everything was? Happy to just play with a cardboard box. As an adult you've done all that. Things are already known and learned. The excitement is gone.

Things don't just happen randomly or for no reason. As such, there is a reason why the father(all knowing) becomes the son/daughter(limited knowledge/perspective).

I wouldn't doubt that the prodigal son's exit from the Kingdom was as exciting as a horse race where the gates open and the horses just come barreling out of there. I would compare the desire to learn the unknowable as knowable to red hot magma which gives rise to the physical realms. But as the magma cools, so must the desire to keep learning what can never be fully learned [known]. There is just no way to know everything about the unknowable. And this is depressing, and it becomes a wearisome task.

To me, the closest thing to "life" in these realms is learning one way back to the totality of the knowledge of the knowable. It's possible to know everything about what can be known. And this is inspiring. I do enjoy it. Its a relief every time a little bit more clarity clears up some confusion.

I do not share anymore the initial sense of joy about learning something "new". I just look at it as an experience that teaches me that I am nOt my Father's Son. That is nOt a very fulfilling experience, from my experience so far. It leaves much to be desired. If its true that we can only be fooled by our desire, then its becoming harder and harder to fool me. I suggest that the carnival ride of emotions that is the world, is not worth the price of admission.

Christ!

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

Refering to Jesus's lineage.

Simply put, both lines run through David, both Mary's family and Joseph's family were of the tribe of Judah.

Consider for a moment, in all of the attacks made on Jesus by the religious leaders of his day ( The Pharisees and the Sadducees who were very well versed in the law), there is no record of any of them ever claiming that Jesus had not descended from David.
Why?
Because the genealogy records were available for inspection at the Temple in Jerusalem until the Romans burnt the Temple later in the year 66 C.E.
If Jesus were a fraud, they would have been able to easily expose him.

Jesus lineage is found at both Matthew 1:1-16; and at Luke 3:23-38

Evidently Matthew traces Jesus' legal lineage through His foster father Joseph, whereas Luke traces it back through the natural lineage of His mother Mary. Matthew records that an angel appeared to Joseph, Jesus' foster father.
Luke tells of the angel Gabriel appearing to Mary, Jesus' mother. Similarly, Matthew tells of the astrologers coming to visit the child Jesus, ";the king of the Jews", bringing costly gifts, whereas Luke tells of humble shepherds being invited to see the newborn Savior.

People used to fuss about "That immaculate conception, that';s impossible".
Now look at the embryonic technology that man has developed to make conception so much easier for couples.
If men can do such modern things that a few years ago would have been considered "impossible", why couldn't our Grand Creator bring his Son Jesus to life on earth as a man this way?

Specail thanks to Perryman for his detailed answer.

In Numbers 26 we are introduced to Zelophehad. Zelophehad, we are told, had no sons, only daughters. In Numbers 27, following the death of Zelophehad, the daughters of Zelophehad came before Moses and argued their plight. Because their father had died with no sons, all of their rights of inheritance were to be lost and they felt this was unfair. So Moses prayed to God and God gave Moses an exception to the rule. The Lord told Moses that the inheritance CAN flow through a female, IF they fulfill two requirements. There must be no male offspring in the family (Num 27:8) and if the female offspring should marry, they must marry within their own tribe (Num 36:6).

Now we come back to Mary. On the surface she should be unable to transfer the rights to her Son. But when you research you find that Mary had NO brothers, AND Mary did indeed marry within her own tribe to Joseph.

Just incase the first was not enough, here is another example of how Mary was able to pass along the lineage of David..

reply to post by Christ!


But see, we don't need to argue over Jesus' lineage because it does not matter. The sufferinig servant and the messiah was declared clearly in the Tanakh.. and I am not sure about everyone else.. but I don't see "Jesus" being named.. Thank G.d... because He will prove Himself by NOT using the hands of man. He will use the mouth of some, but you can not hear when your fingers are stuffed in your ears.

Originally posted by justamomma

Jesus was NOT the Word.. That is the image that will keep you trapped and blind to seeing that the Word, aka the Son of man HAS returned. You look for a man. Everyone is so willing to trust men... why is no one willing to trust G.d anymore??? You want the physical.. and the physical leads only to death! G.d is not physical.. He uses the physical to teach us... but we worship the physical.. it is silly logic.

How will you know Jesus? You have never met Him. Unless you know the Word, you will fall. The Word is not confined to flesh and blood.

[edit on 22-1-2009 by justamomma]

The whole "word" thing is kind of overblown. Only the writer of the pop gospel John knows why he chose such words to describe the genesis of flesh. I suggest that the scribe of John was not fully understanding what the gospel was all about, as he singled out Jesus as "the Christ", and failed to explain how all flesh descends from heaven and calls itself ie. "son of man", and ascends only as the Son of God. John was included in the canon, then, because his version did support the concept that Jesus is the Christ, to the exclusion of anyone and everyone else.

Christ!

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by TheMythLives


Mary was of the line of the levites... and that doesn't matter because the lineages of importance in the bible are clearly that of the fathers and since you do not believe Jesus had an earthly father.. well, Jesus could not be the messiah by your own declaration. *sighs*

Originally posted by TheMythLives
Jesus lineage is found at both Matthew 1:1-16; and at Luke 3:23-38

Both are said to be the lineage of Joseph according to those gospels. HULLO! neither say Mary, the daughter of!

Both of those accounts don't line up and the one in Matthew again is missing 4 names that are listed in 2 Chr.

Stop regurgitating what you are told and go and actually do the research. I have and I am telling you, you have not. You are just quoting others rather than looking. Prove to me that I am wrong by actually looking.

reply to post by TheMythLives


Hmmm... well since neither of these lineages are of Mary.. then your case still falls short.

Originally posted by justamomma
reply to post by Christ!

 

But see, we don't need to argue over Jesus' lineage because it does not matter. The sufferinig servant and the messiah was declared clearly in the Tanakh.. and I am not sure about everyone else.. but I don't see "Jesus" being named.. Thank G.d... because He will prove Himself by NOT using the hands of man. He will use the mouth of some, but you can not hear when your fingers are stuffed in your ears.

Right. The lineage thing is a trick...a distraction...misdirection. It serves only to defeat the message Jesus spoke of...the lessons he taught. The lineage thing does serve to expose, more obviously, an agenda to shoehorn his persona/message into a nationalist party leader [aka "Messiah"]. In those days, having a Messiah was like having a nuclear bomb in your arsenal for a deterent. Israel doesn't need a Messiah now, since they have nukes and a "Sampson complex".

Indeed, the lineage does not matter. That they made it matter is a clue to how Jesus is misunderstood.

I have asked you some questions. Are you avoiding them?

Please describe, in your own words, the Truth.
What is it you have seen, "right there" in front, where noone else can see it?

Christ!

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by justamomma


Huh? I trust God and his son Jesus.

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God,”

Jesus was God made flesh, I do not have to see God to know that he is there. Materialism is not an issue for me, God wanted to do this for us, he gave us this gift of his son. His son was divine and in being divine, Jesus was the word....

Blindness?

All the books of the Old Testament except Esther, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon are quoted in the New Testament, and there are about 300 quotations in all. It was not known as the "Old Testament" at that time, for the "New Testament" did not yet exist. It was simply the "scriptures," which revealed the nature, will and actions of the one true God, Yahweh.

The OT revealed his nature, actions and will, the spiritual father, but in the NT it is the physical son of God and the word was made once again flesh. It fits perfectly the oT and the NT.

The New Testament has greater clarity than the old, especially with regard to invisible and spiritual things.

The Old Testament presents only images of truth, whereas the New Testament presents it directly.

The laws of the Old Testament lack the ability to effect change from within, but the gospel of the New Testament provides this in the work of the Holy Spirit.

The Old Testament evokes a response of fear and trembling, but the New Testament produces freedom and joy.

The Old Testament was revealed only to Israel; the New Testament is a revelation to all of mankind.

Originally posted by justamomma

Originally posted by TheMythLives
Jesus lineage is found at both Matthew 1:1-16; and at Luke 3:23-38

You are just quoting others rather than looking. Prove to me that I am wrong by actually looking.

With all due respect, but are you serious ? Did you not read what was written there. The times of Moses, he was told of how it would be carried! By the way this statement made no since... I believe once again your case falls incredibly short, how you are stumbling to your conclusions is a mystery to me.

Originally posted by TheMythLives
I believe once again your case falls incredibly short, how you are stumbling to your conclusions is a mystery to me.

Thanks for showing us how the myth lives on.
Keep on believing.
The truth stands at the door and knocks.
Sometimes it takes a few thousand years to open the door.

Christ!

[edit on 22-1-2009 by Christ!]

reply to post by Christ!


thanks for the kind words.
You keep doing the same...

Originally posted by TheMythLives
reply to post by justamomma

 

Huh? I trust God and his son Jesus.

I trust only G.d (and yes, that includes His Word, but I don't believe it because it is in the Bible or because people tell me to.

I don't know Jesus and since I don't know him, why on earth would I trust Him?

The Word testifies to the Laws that were written on my heart and sealed with the finger of G.d (do you believe that I mean an ACTUAL finger?). My Saviour and Redeemer is G.d. alone. It is not a man.. it is G.d.


"The names of other gods you shall not mention, nor shall your mouth cause it to be heard." Exodus 23:13

"Know therefore this day, and consider it in your heart, that the LORD, he is G.d in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39

"See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god with me." Deuteronomy..32:39

"I am He, before Me no god was created, neither shall there be after Me." Isaiah 43:10

"Thus saith the LORD, the King of Israel and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts, I am the first, and I am the last, and beside Me there is no god." Isaiah 44:6

"I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18

The one true G.d says: "Thou shall have no other gods before Me, … Thou shall not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; For I the LORD thy G.d am a jealous G.d." Exodus 20:3+5.

"See now that I, even I am He, and there is no G.d with me. I kill and make alive, I wound and I heal, neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand." Deuteronomy 32:39.

"O LORD, there is none like thee, neither is there any G.d beside thee." I Chronicles 17:20.

"Thou, even Thou, art LORD alone." Nehemia 9:6.

"Thou are G.d alone." Psalm 86:10.

"I am the LORD and there is none else, there is no G.d beside me: That they may know from the rising of the sun and from the west that there is no G.d beside Me. I am the LORD, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:5-6.