Debunking the 'Fake Jew' AKA The 'Khazarian Jew' Myth.

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posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 02:33 PM
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Introduction

Current events dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict have created a significant increase in ATS threads discussing various aspects of the long-running issue. Due to this, possibly a dozen times in the last two days alone I've noticed accusations that today's Jews (American, European, and Israeli) are not 'real Jews' but are instead descendants of Khazarian Jewish converts. This claim is typically offered as a reason why Jews currently inhabiting the state of Israel have no legitimate ancestral claim to the land. My intent with this thread is to debunk such an accusation.

A Very Brief History

After suffering persecution in Persia, Byzantium, and various Islamic nations, many Jews fled to Khazaria (1, 2) for safety. The Khazars and Jews enjoyed a diplomatic relationship and eventually Khazarian nobility converted to Judaism around the 8th-9th century A.D. Some historians believe their subjects later converted to Judaism as well, although the extent of conversion is debated and evidence exists to verify a range of figures. Kharzars held a diverse range of religions including Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Zoroastrianism, and various pagan beliefs. Although evidence certainly points to some Khazars holding Jewish beliefs, they were not all converts to Judaism.

The Conspiracy Begins

Fast forward to the 19th century. French Philosopher Ernest Renan appears to be responsible for starting the conspiracy theory in his book Judaism as a Race and as Religion. He puts forth the claim Ashkenazic Jews are descended from Khazarian converts and the line of Japheth and not 'pure blood' Semitic Jews descended from Shem and Abraham. Slowly but surely the theory began to spread in popularity and was ultimately popularized in the 20th century by the well known racial theorist Lothrop Stoddard. Several more authors picked up and propagated the myth throughout the 20th century to the point the accusation became wide spread and well known. The theory is now very popular with various anti-semitic and anti-Zionist organizations and is mostly used to negate Israel's purpose of existence.

Debunking the Accusation Using DNA Evidence

The evidence is by far on the side of those seeking to refute the allegation that Ashkenazic are not 'real' Jews. Science and DNA evidence confirms common, semitic ancestry:


Haplotypes constructed from Y-chromosome markers were used to trace the paternal origins of the Jewish Diaspora. A set of 18 biallelic polymorphisms was genotyped in 1,371 males from 29 populations, including 7 Jewish (Ashkenazi, Roman, North African, Kurdish, Near Eastern, Yemenite, and Ethiopian) and 16 non-Jewish groups from similar geographic locations. The Jewish populations were characterized by a diverse set of 13 haplotypes that were also present in non-Jewish populations from Africa, Asia, and Europe. A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora. Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were not significantly different from one another at the genetic level. Admixture estimates suggested low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities. A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians. Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.

Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes


And:


With a new technique based on the male or Y chromosome, biologists have traced the diaspora of Jewish populations from the dispersals that began in 586 B.C. to the modern communities of Europe and the Middle East.

The analysis provides genetic witness that these communities have, to a remarkable extent, retained their biological identity separate from their host populations, evidence of relatively little intermarriage or conversion into Judaism over the centuries.

Another finding, paradoxical but unsurprising, is that by the yardstick of the Y chromosome, the world's Jewish communities closely resemble not only each other but also Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese, suggesting that all are descended from a common ancestral population that inhabited the Middle East some four thousand years ago.

[Snip]

Despite the Ashkenazi Jews' long residence in Europe, their Y signature has remained distinct from that of non-Jewish Europeans.

Y Chromosome Bears Witness to Story of the Jewish Diaspora


Religious Support

Those who continue to push forth the theory that Ashkenazi Jews are not 'real Jews' also display a gross ignorance of the Jewish religion concerning the treatment and acceptance of converts. This is either ignored or unknown by those who make the accusation. Although we can see above DNA evidence vindicates modern Jews, even if by some chance they were not ancestrally related, the fact remains in Judaism a convert is treated with the utmost respect and, according to Jewish Law, no differentiation is made between a 'biological,' if you will, Jew and a Jewish convert.

Even some famous Biblical characters, one example being Ruth, an ancestor of King David, were converts to the faith and not born into it as a descendant of Abraham. A Jew is a Jew either through heritage or conversion so this accusation is negated.

Historical Support

As I mention above, the statistics regarding the Khazarian conversion is a hotly debated topic. For the sake of intellectual honesty, I will say that in some cases there is historical support to confirm a a large amount of converts. However, this still poses no problem to Israel's right to exist or its current citizens of being 'Real Jews.' There were conversions as well as a mixing of the cultures but the scientific evidence above proves the bloodline retained its integrity. History, biology, and archeology also prove not all Khazarians became Ashkenazi Jews and not all Ashkenazi Jews were Khazarian. Although many did convert to Judaism, many Kharzarians still held a diverse range of religious beliefs.

Conclusion

In light of all evidence, most scholars and historians have rejected or abandoned the conspiracy theory altogether. The remaining proponents of the theory generally consist of various groups and organizations seeking to undermine Israel's sovereignty, its citizens right to the land, and to propagate anti-semitic information.

You'll often find this information still being presented without any actual facts to back it up on anti-semitic websites like Stormfront, Jew Watch, etc.

The fact remains, this claim simply is not factual and all evidence points to this conspiracy theory being false.




posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 03:51 PM
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Ancestral claim?

Tell that to Jericho.


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posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:16 PM
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Great job researching this and providing supporting data Ashley. There are so many spurious attempts to attack the Jewish people and their right to their homeland it is hard to keep track of them all. To be honest I wasn't even aware of this Khazarian canard.

The main conjecture I have heard repeatedly is how their are these lost tribes of Israel so that it is impossible for all the tribes to be represented in modern day Israel. So this somehow negates the fulfillment of prophecy is the skeptics reasoning I suppose... The whole idea for the lost tribes stems from the split into to two kingdoms of Israel and Judah after King Solomon's death.



The phrase Ten Lost Tribes of Israel refers to the ancient Tribes of Israel that disappeared from the Biblical account after the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, enslaved and exiled by ancient Assyria. Many groups of Jews have doctrines concerning the continued hidden existence or future public return of these tribes.
en.wikipedia.org...


This whole notion is very easily dismissed. It requires that only the tribe of Judah remained in the southern kingdom. Israel and Judah were on the verge of civil war when God sent a prophet to warn them to stop.

"But the word of the Lord came bto Shemaiah the man of God, saying, 3 “Speak to Rehoboam the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and to all Israel in Judah and Benjamin, saying,  ‘Thus says the Lord: “You shall not go up or fight against your brethren! Let every man return to his house, for this thing is from Me.” ’ ” Therefore they obeyed the words of the Lord, and turned back from attacking Jeroboam. " (2 Ch 11:2-4)

Now the temple and was of course still in Jerusalem so in respoonse to this message the priests and levites returned to Judah.

" And from all their territories the priests and the Levites who were in all Israel took their stand with him." (2 Ch 11:13)

Basically the northern kingdom became pagan and secular - which why it was given over by God first. In response to the priests return, Jews that were faithful to the Lord from all of the tribes returned to Judah.

"And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers." (2 Ch 11:16)

So there were representatives from all tribes in the southern kingdom prior to the northern kingdom being sacked and exiled by Assyria, putting to rest the whole notion of "lost" tribes. Further evidence is in that in the new testament the disciples all were aware of their tribes and addressed others by their respective heritage as well. Sure there were/are many lost Jews to the diaspora - I saw a special recently where they found Jewish community in India - but no lost tribes. All the tribes are represented in Israel's population today.




[edit on 1/2/2009 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


Thanks so much for your added research. A star for you.
I've heard about the so called lost tribes several times before but never took the time to research it in depth. Thanks for your contribution and please feel free to add any other information you may have on the subject. It's something I'd like to research but have too many things currently on my plate.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:33 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I'm curious about and would appreciate your take on Revelation 2:9 and 3:9, in which Christ, through John, refers to "the Jews who say they are Jews, and are not." How does this relate to your topic, if at all?



Revelation 2

9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by Icarus Rising
 


No, that is another matter entirely.


Remember, at the time Revelation was penned, the term 'Christian' was not in popular use, although Acts records it's first use in 1st century A.D. At that time, 'Christians' were still widely considered and called Jews, even the Gentile converts to 'Christianity.' This was prior to the Christian/Jew rift.

The passage in Revelation is referring to theological belief, not physical ancestry.

Edit for clarity.

[edit on 1/2/2009 by AshleyD]


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posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:48 PM
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I have given you a S&F for your research.

What we need to keep in mind though is that nothing justifies what is happening in Israel and Gaza right now.

It doesn't matter if they are "Real Jews" or not, people are dying, is that not bad enough?

That being said, I notice that Judaism occupies a curious status somewhere between race and religion.

One one had you have the folks who go way back, genetically speaking, and so are "born Jewish." But on the other it is a religion, that anyone can convert to--one of my friends is a converted Jew of Native American descent. Someone like her would not be able to say that they have a Jewish history going back thousands of years.

By the same token I have a lot of Eurpopean Jewish blood, 4 or 5 generations ago, but it would be rediculous for me to call myself a Jew by blood.

[edit on 2-1-2009 by asmeone2]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:51 PM
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i thought being jewish was not a nationality but a religion?
does this mean only jewish people that have jewish blood have rights to israel? continuing this debate with more racial propoganda is just as racist as the khazarians are fake jews arguement.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 




Revelation 3 9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


In addition I think the verses in Revelation about the false Jews are speaking prophetically toward the conflict we see today in Israel. There are the many people making an ancestral claim to the Jewish homeland that don't have any heritage there.

Many people groups in the middle east claim to be descendants of Abraham that simply are not. For instance some "Palestinians" claim an Abrahamic heritage through Ishmael.


The name Palestine refers to a region of the eastern Mediterranean coast from the sea to the Jordan valley and from the southern Negev desert to the Galilee lake region in the north. The word itself derives from "Plesheth", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". Plesheth, (root palash) was a general term meaning rolling or migratory. This referred to the Philistine's invasion and conquest of the coast from the sea. The Philistines were not Arabs nor even Semites, they were most closely related to the Greeks originating from Asia Minor and Greek localities. They did not speak Arabic. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs.
www.palestinefacts.org...


They are not Ishmaelites - that claim is likely limited to the Saudis. Israel was an abandoned waste land when England took it over. The term Arab gets thrown around a lot - when the only thing the people groups have in common is Islam. It is more PC to say "Arab" than Muslim. I think the Revelation verse is also referring to the Jewish homeland's problems.



[edit on 1/2/2009 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 04:58 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
I have given you a S&F for your research.


Thanks, Hon.


What we need to keep in mind though is that nothing justifies what is happening in Israel and Gaza right now.

It doesn't matter if they are "Real Jews" or not, people are dying, is that not bad enough?


What I would like to avoid is another thread turning into a debate of Israel vs. Palestine and the situation in Gaza. The first paragraph in this thread actually mentions the inspiration for this thread and points out the extreme amount of threads dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Because there are so many current threads where we can discuss that topic, I'd like to have this one adhere to the specific topic at hand.

Not trying to censor anyone and if for some reason anyone feels the need to take the topic there, I won't mini-mod anyone. It's just that I have said all I can possibly say on the appropriate threads regarding the Gaza situation and would now like to focus on the accusation that keeps sprouting out of those numerous threads. And that is, European, American, and Israeli Jews are not real Jews.


That being said, I notice that Judaism occupies a curious status somewhere between race and religion.

One one had you have the folks who go way back, genetically speaking, and so are "born Jewish." But on the other it is a religion, that anyone can convert to--one of my friends is a converted Jew of Native American descent. Someone like her would not be able to say that they have a Jewish history going back thousands of years.


Yes it does.
The best explanation for that I have heard is Ethno Religious. That would probably be the best classification for it.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:00 PM
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I perhaps worded that badly. i wasn't trying to be combative, I just anticipated this thread being taken as an appologetic for the violence.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:01 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


Ok no problem. Thanks for your clarification. I can see why you would point that out then. Thanks for doing so.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:02 PM
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Originally posted by conspiracy nut
i thought being jewish was not a nationality but a religion?
does this mean only jewish people that have jewish blood have rights to israel? continuing this debate with more racial propoganda is just as racist as the khazarians are fake jews arguement.


The term Jew is a nationality not a race or religion. The religion is Judaism yet you can still be a Jew and Christian. Nationality and race are not the same thing. There are Jews of varying races, just like there are Americans of various races. For instance, Israel has brought many black Jews home from Ethopia.





[edit on 1/2/2009 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:14 PM
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Originally posted by conspiracy nut
i thought being jewish was not a nationality but a religion?
does this mean only jewish people that have jewish blood have rights to israel? continuing this debate with more racial propoganda is just as racist as the khazarians are fake jews arguement.


I believe you missed a very important argument included in my O.P. It was not a 'right by race' issue. I also mention the belief in Judaism, according to their law defined in the Torah, that considers converts 'real Jews' as well. I clearly state that even if some Jews today do not have a Jewish heritage, it does not negate any claim they have to the land along with those born into Jewish ancestry.

From the appropriate section in my OP:




Religious Support

Those who continue to push forth the theory that Ashkenazi Jews are not 'real Jews' also display a gross ignorance of the Jewish religion concerning the treatment and acceptance of converts. This is either ignored or unknown by those who make the accusation. Although we can see above DNA evidence vindicates modern Jews, even if by some chance they were not ancestrally related, the fact remains in Judaism a convert is treated with the utmost respect and, according to Jewish Law, no differentiation is made between a 'biological,' if you will, Jew and a Jewish convert.

Even some famous Biblical characters, one example being Ruth, an ancestor of King David, were converts to the faith and not born into it as a descendant of Abraham. A Jew is a Jew either through heritage or conversion so this accusation is negated.


Therefore, those who even try to use the canard 'Ashkenazic Jews aren't real Jews' get the legs chopped off of their argument once we see that Converted Jews and Semitic Jews are the same according to Jewish law. The DNA evidence helps debunk the canard but even if we did not have such strong evidence on our side, the accusation of 'non blood Jews' still wouldn't stand.

[edit on 1/2/2009 by AshleyD]


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posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:34 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 





The results support the hypothesis ...and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora.


Which essentially means that their isolationism has led to their beliefs of racist supremacy... I know jews that say "Oh- I'm Ashkenazi Jew and we're the smartest race of people".. to that I say go (blank) your racist self. It's also disturbing the way you reference these "views" are used by anti-semites- well, honey, that is ploy- if anyone is to raise any of these views you are a racist, anti-semite, nazi, blah blah blah blah.. because I'm a jew blah blah blah blah.. It's really quite a pathetic ploy to denounce and suppress any intelligent dialog .

Fake jew or non-fake jew your argument doesn't paint any better picture and as one other poster stated- certainly doesn't justify their actions against the helpless Palestinian people that they have been starving and imprisoning with in the Gaza borders, prior to and following Israel's military attacks. Rocket and tanks versus stones and home-made rockets.. 417+ lives vs 6 Israeli lives.. Give me a break.. We pro-Palestinian posters still have a lot to be upset about.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Well done. A well thought out and constructive presentation.

Hopefully people will remain respectful enough to stay on topic for this one instead of the usual whenever this subject rears its proverbial.

I think I might have landed on the other side of the fence in another thread however I wasn't particularly clear. The issue I raised was that of non-European Jews (wait, I know, I know) and Arabs both being Semitic peoples. This fact is usually lost on those who attack Israel-knockers and, I'm trying to be polite, is nothing more than an argument from ignorance.

Now, if I understand correctly, you are basically suggesting that it doesn't matter if they were Pale Settlement Jews, Post USSR Jews or whatever, they are all, racially-speaking, Jewish?

I would imagine that this will not affect one iota any further 'discussions' on this subject but nevertheless I commend you for your efforts.



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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off-topic post removed to prevent thread-drift


 



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:51 PM
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I think you may be missing another point. Whoever revelations is referring to they are "the synagogue of Satan. That means they are very powerful people who do Satan's bidding in the world in order to set up the beast system over which he will rule. Satanists or (Luciferians to be more precise) who claim to be Jews... The Saddusees and the Pharisees consisted mostly of these infiltrators who had taken over the elite roles of lawmakers and religious leaders in Israel at the time of Christ. He called them a den of vipers and the seed of the serpent.

John 8:44 (King James Version)

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


Matt 3:7

But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, "You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

These men in the WAY OF CAIN...



posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 05:59 PM
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Real-Jews, Fakes-Jews, it's still a bunch of Arabic decedent people killing each other for vendetta. So what makes this any different from a gang fight? Oh yeah, there's elected official involved so that makes it justified I guess. Or is it because they are on "god's side".....wait which side are we talking about again?

This Jew, that Jew, who gives a crap in the immortal words of one of the greatest rock bands on earth, Tool, it all comes down to:
"Monkey killing monkey killing monkey over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys.
Give them thumbs, they make a club to beat their brother down.
How they've survived so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability
To lift an eye to heaven, conscious of his fleeting time here.
"

Senseless it all is really....

Just because I think more people should read these lyrics
:

"Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father* give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys
Where there's one you're bound to divide it right in two.

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason,
And this is what they choose?
"

Nice display of research there btw


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posted on Jan, 2 2009 @ 06:24 PM
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www.ihr.org...

Opinions are divided, but the fact remains the same that King Bulan did convert the Khazarians to Judaism.

But the Ashkenazi being fake Jews isn't really the main problem of the world.

It is the things that these people have done that is so disgusting.

Mayer Amschel Bauer was an Ashkenazi, he changed his last name to Rothschild; and it was his lineage that setup their banking scams all throughout Europe.

They started the French Revolution for profit and control.


1786

The Bavarian government publish the details of the, “Illuminati,” plot in a document entitled, “The Original Writings of The Order and Sect of The Illuminati.” They then send this document to all the heads of church and state throughout Europe, who sadly ignore their warning.


Even if they were "real Jews" there is no excuse for Israel's crimes against humanity.

We wouldn't have a Federal Reserve and be on the brink of complete economic ruin if it hadn't been for the Jewish banking system.

This is the SAME EXACT thing that happened to Germany pre WWII, and everyone wonders why they persecuted the Jews.

They set themselves up for persecution.

I am sure there are Jews out there who are very nice people, but Israel is just as big a propaganda machine as the US.





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