Hi. I didn't see this POV expressed here , so I thought I'd log on and introduce you to a new paradigm that Bible believers have given credit to the past decade.

Mainstream American Christians hold to the "Left Behind" Revived Roman Empire type scenario.

After doing a reexamination of key parts of Daniel and Revelation many of us have realized that the end time will witness a Revived Islamic Caliphate and the Antichrist will be the Islamic Mahdi.

When you compare Islamic and Biblical Eschatology you find extremely similar events described except that in Islam the Muslims are doing the things that are described as the bad guys in the Bible.

In the Bible , Christians jump right into the highly symbolic Daniel and Revelation and sorta blindly try to figure out what it all means.

That's the wrong place to start.

In the Old Testament, there are many many prophecies scattered thoughtout where God is calling out nations by name and destroying them.

These are always associated with the Day of the Lord, and usually with Sun going black and the moon to red.

100% of these nations are Muslim countries today.

The Antichrist is called the Assyrian, Prince of Tyre, King of Babylon, Pharaoh of Egypt, Gog. The KJV in Isaiah call his master , Lucifer. In other versions he's the Shining One, Son of the dawn. In Hebrew he's Helel Ben Shacker.. In Arabic that's Crescent Moon and Morning Star (symbol of Islam).

The Muslims will call Antichrist: Imam al Mahdi.

These nations are destroyed:
Babylon (Iraq/Arabia) Isaiah 13, Assyria and Philistine Isaiah 14, Moab Isaiah 15, Damascus Isaiah 17, Cush (Somalia) Isaiah 18. Egypt Isaiah 19, Egypt and Cust Isaiah 20, Babylon Edom Isaiah 21 Tyre (Lebanon) Isaiah 23

Ezekiel 28-32 Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, Turkey, Arabia, Iraq, Iran

Psalms 83: Edom (Jodan/Arabia) Moab (Jordan), Gebal (Lebanon), Tyre (Lebanon), Philistia, Ishmaelites Hagarites (Arabs) Assyria (Iraq, Syria), Amalek (Jordan)

Ezekiel 38 Gog Magog (Turkey), Meshech (Turkey), Tubal (Turkey), Gomer (Turkey), Beth Togarmah (Turkey), Persia (Iran), Cush (Sudan/Somalia), Put (Libya)

In almost every OT book, there's End Time prophecy of some nations getting judged. They are always the same ones.. all of them Muslim.

Nations that are not-Muslim are not destroyed. The problem with the Revived Roman Empire theory is that it's so hard to try to fit Rome into anything in the OT. I am working from the premise that God wrote teh OT very basic.. Things that are literal should be taken at face value. So from all the above locations and names for the AC I will put aside Rome for now.

In Rev 17 is the imagine of the woman riding the 7-Headed Beast.

Rev 17:9 The seven heads are seven mountains. They are also seven kings , five have fallen , one is ,and the other has not yet come

Mountains refer to Empires or Kingdoms. And each are headed by a King/Leader. So 7 Heads = 7 Mountains = 7 Empires = 7 Kings


At the time John is writing, 5 previous Empires controlled Israel, they are: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Media-Persia, Greece.

THe 6th empire at the time of John is Rome. We're told the 7th Empire does not yet exist at that time. Every Empire conquers the previous one and controls Israel.

The next empire to seize Jerusalem and destroy the preceding Empire.... The Islamic Caliphate

Rev 17:11 The beast that was, and is not, is himself an eighth king and yet is one of the seven, and is going to destruction

This final 8th Beast is one of the former 7 but is not the 6th (Rome)

The End Time Beast Empire is not Rome...

Rev 17:8 The beast you saw was, and is not, but is about to come up from the abyss

Rev 17:8 The inhabitants of the earth ... will be astounded when they see that the beast was, and is not, but is

17:10 five have fallen; one is, and the other has not yet come

Another reason why Islam must be the End Time empire is because the final Empire contains all the lands of the previous Empires except the 6th empire.

Only the Islamic Caliphate had all the land from the Egyptian, Assyrian, Babylonian, Media-Persian, Greek, and Eastern Roman Empires.

In Rev 17, the Beast the Woman Rides has 7 Heads.. that means this last Empire is comprised of the 7 earlier Empires combined.

In Daniel 2 there is the dream of the Statue. When Christ destroys the Statue, he doesn't destroy just the last empire, but the entire statue of all the empires. That's because the final empire is all the past ones combined.

There is another view of the Beast in this chapter:

Rev 13:1 Then1 I saw a beast coming up out of the sea. It had ten horns and seven heads, and on its horns were ten diadem crowns, and on its heads a blasphemous name. Now the beast that I saw was like a leopard, but its feet were like a bear’s, and its mouth was like a lion’s mouth. The dragon gave the beast his power, his throne, and great authority to rule. One of the beast’s heads appeared to have been killed, but the lethal wound had been healed.

This Beast is also a combination of earlier Beasts. Notice that it's combing the Three Animal Beast Empires that are first mentioned in Daniel. Babylon, Media-Persia, and Greek. But it also has 7 Heads.. those are the 7 past empires.

The 10 Horns are the same as the 10 Toes in Daniel's Chapter 2 Statue. The future Caliphate will emerge from 10 Countries

John gives us the test for determining AntiChrist:

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ62? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the Father and the Son

Islam came to deny all of those things:

Qur'an 4:171 "O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion; nor speak lies of Allah. The Messiah, Christ Jesus, the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit proceeding from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not ‘Trinity.' Cease and Desist: (it is) better for you: for Allah is one Ilah (God). (Far it is removed from him of) having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. The Messiah is proud to be a slave of Allah, as are the angels, those nearest. Those who disdain His worship and are arrogant. He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer).... He will punish with a painful doom; Nor will they find, besides Allah, any to protect or save them."

And if you examine the development of Arab pagan religion in Pre-Islamic times, there are startling similarities between Allah and gods mentioned in the Bible. I'll write more about that later.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by VinceP1974]

The reason that many Christians believe in the Revived Roman Empire scenario is because in Daniel's statue, the feet are made out of iron and clay and iron was the metal that symbolized the RRE earlier in the dream. Many interpret this to mean that the Roman Empire reforms, but has trouble unifying. I believe that this is the European Union. At last check, the EU was having trouble unifying under one constituion because the UK, Belgium, and France rejected it.

I do believe that Islam will play a prominant role in end times. I think as the next world empire though is tough to imagine because the AntiChrist rules the final empire and this empire, at least for a little while, is friendly toward Israel. I don't see a muslim empire doing that!

I often have thought though that the 12th Mahdi of Islam will be the AntiChrist.

Good post though, it's definitely something to think about!

Very interesting read.

I have often thought down these lines but I saw it in a different light.

When you read about Abram or Abraham, depending on what stage of his life you are looking at, the first conflict with in his family centered around the two sons. One was Ishmael and the other was Issac. Ishmael is the father of the Muslim nations. Issac is the child of promise..read St. Paul's apology in Romans...and I see a common thread and culmination between the Child of Promise..Issac..which according to Romans is an archtype of the Church...and Ishmael the child of mans effort to fullfill Gods plan....

The last historic battles/showdowns it seems would take place between the two archtypes or if I said it in Christian terms between Islam and Christians/Jews.


The idea of faith vs works..or Ishmael vs Issac is a central theme in the Pauline revelation.

Star and Flag brother.

Originally posted by whiteraven
Very interesting read.

I have often thought down these lines but I saw it in a different light.

When you read about Abram or Abraham, depending on what stage of his life you are looking at, the first conflict with in his family centered around the two sons. One was Ishmael and the other was Issac. Ishmael is the father of the Muslim nations. Issac is the child of promise..read St. Paul's apology in Romans...and I see a common thread and culmination between the Child of Promise..Issac..which according to Romans is an archtype of the Church...and Ishmael the child of mans effort to fullfill Gods plan....

The last historic battles/showdowns it seems would take place between the two archtypes or if I said it in Christian terms between Islam and Christians/Jews.


The idea of faith vs works..or Ishmael vs Issac is a central theme in the Pauline revelation.

Star and Flag brother.

I agree with you too... it's very compelling that Ishmael (his tribe) makes a return at the End Time to terrorize Issaac one last time.

It brings a symmetry to the Book of Genesis.

Also, Islam's god , Allah, is really the crescent moon god of war.

When Abram lived in Ur, Ur's chief god, Sin, was the Babylonian chief god of the crescent moon. Allah is Satan.

So not only do you have the blood feud returning to the Jews at the end time.. but these people are also slaves to the "god" that is the Jews enemy.

There are many things I haven't said yet. Islam is preparing the Muslims to do all of the nasty war stuff that the Bible describes. Islam tells Muslims that they will kill every Jew before the Islamic End Time comes..and that Muslims will either convert or kill all the Christians and all other religions. IN the Islamic End Time there will no longer be the option of being a dhimmi.

All religion and all law (Sharia) must be Islam. Islam is the One-World Religion / Government.

It is the force that changes the times and laws.

The End Time believers who die rather than worship Antichrist are described this way:

Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones and seated on them were those who had been given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God

Only one religion beheads people today Islam






[edit on 1-1-2009 by VinceP1974]

[edit on 1-1-2009 by VinceP1974]

I agree, interesting read

I also agree with your assessment and that the final battle that will decide the fate of the entire world and all it's people and their religions will come to down to those of the Jewish and Islamic fate and sadly it will be a relatively small percentage who will end up making the decision for the much larger and more tolerant percentage of each.

Those that follow both the Koran and the Bible are conditioned to believe in self fulfilling the prophecy of the End of Times and both are unwilling to put asides their differences for the value and gift of life we all are given. Only the fall of organized religion will stop the end time prophecy from happening..until spirituality replaces literate interpretation of "the word" from either book, we're all doomed.

Anyone who does the research honestly can come to no other conclusion. Muhammed was convinced he was having delusions, the people in town stated clearly that he was crazy, but the true architect of Islam was his first wife.

After all, here he was, off in a cave, haunted by demons, and in that small town, his wife was some kind of embarrassed. Thus, she convinced him that these demons were entreating him to become a prophet.

The only prophet in history who couldn't perform any kind of miracle whatsoever. The Allah of Islam is the Deceiver, one who came in darkness to Muhammed, opposite of the Judeo/Christian God of light.

The prophecies of Ezekial and Hosea are easy enough to understand, and place in the end times. And God JAHWEH has stated clearly that those nations will be brought against His people, after they have been gathered from all nations, and into their homeland, never again to be scattered.

This was the promise of God, and he is no slacker when He makes a promise. He will bring such a force against His people, that it will be clear to everyone that their utter destruction and defeat could only be accomplished through Him.

So far, the successes of Israel against others beginning in 1948, in 1956, in 1967, and in 1973 can be explained no other way. I find it interesting that the nations of the old Persian Empire are the ones to be destroyed.

Going to be enjoyable to watch.

Originally posted by worldwatcher


Those that follow both the Koran and the Bible are conditioned to believe in self fulfilling the prophecy of the End of Times and both are unwilling to put asides their differences for the value and gift of life we all are given. Only the fall of organized religion will stop the end time prophecy from happening..until spirituality replaces literate interpretation of "the word" from either book, we're all doomed.

Hi. I understand it's a common belief out there , especially by people who dont buy into this stuff.. that people who do believe in it will somehow try to initiate it. You should know that Christians and Jews do not believe that we have any influence in bringing these things about.

On the other hand, the Muslims.. especially the Twelver Shiis in control of Iran, believe they can bring about their End Time faster if they start war.

The President of Iran believes its' his mission in life to start a nuclear war so that the Mahdi will be sent to earth.


Now, if a Christian wants the end time to arrive, then that means the Christian has to be in the role of the End Time christian.. which is a powerless position.

I advocate attacking Iran now.. before they get the bomb. I advocate massive attacks onthe Palestinians. I would pursue just the opposite of what the Bible says the future is like.

If Iran is not attacked, if Iran gets the bomb, if people want be foolish and think we can talk to them.. then we are going to be nuked. The advocates of Peace will be the ones bringing the end of the world because they enabled Iran to nuclearize and deploy the weapon.

It does defintely make sense the end times in the bible merely talking and speculating the end times of the 'Christian' empire drawing on knowledge of empires rising and falling throughout the times and religions coming and going throughout the times before and during and the bible's completion.

It's funny that the end result...i.e. heaven... which i believe was one of the first concepts of everyone believing the same thing. The small number of people being saved in the onslaught againt the beast was it 100,000 or so and the rest of us meeting a sticky end and going to hell.

The same things are mirrored with the Koran everyone being muslim and the muslim caliphate.

I'm shaky with the Jewish stance on end times so i'll to research those later

I'm going to re-read relevations though thanks to this thread and think about it more.

So if we believe the bible as you see it then...what America gets taken over by Muslims??? Only Israel is left?

lol

I'm very impressed by how you have shown such a good match with what the Bible verses are saying to what they seem to actually mean. However, I'm still confused as to if the book of Revelations actually indicates there will be a single anti-christ character or actually numerous characters.

Europe is at the mercy of the population of the young Muslims.

It seems odd that "ancient European" birth rate has fallen to the degree it has. What..is everybody to busy to have a baby? lol

Originally posted by truthquest
I'm very impressed by how you have shown such a good match with what the Bible verses are saying to what they seem to actually mean. However, I'm still confused as to if the book of Revelations actually indicates there will be a single anti-christ character or actually numerous characters.

I believe there are two individuals. A leader and a subordinate. Both working for the Devil. Some people disagree and say that they're abstractions, or spirits, or systems.


If you look at AshleyD's comment... I agree with her view.

In the past I did a line by line breakdown of the Two Beasts and showed how they fit right into Islamic eschatology. I have to find it.