6 Million people died in the Holocaust, and somebody did something.

Due to recent current events I have seen a line something like this repeated in many threads:

"Six Million Jews died in the Holocaust and no one did anything to stop it!

Beyond the number of deaths(and I know even that is disputed here) This statement is historically inaccurate in many ways.

Let me clear some things up, ATS. There is no need to cling to this ignorance and besides, as I've said, I take personal offence to this statement. At the time of WWII one half of my family was busy getting their keisters out of Germany so they wouldn't be among the 6 million, and the other half was busy fighting the Nazis or supporting that war effort.


1. It was not only Jews who were killed in the Holocaust:

Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.

www.holocaustforgotten.com...

Romani (commonly but incorrectly called Gypsies) were considered by the Nazis to be social outcasts. Under the Weimar Republic--the German government from 1918 to 1933--anti-Romani laws became widespread. These laws required them to register with officials, prohibited them from traveling freely, and sent them to forced-labor camps. When the Nazis came to power, those laws remained in effect--and were expanded. Under the July 1933 sterilization law, many Romani were sterilized against their will.

In November 1933, the "Law Against Dangerous Habitual Criminals" was passed. Under this law, the police began arresting Romani along with others labeled "asocial." Beggars, vagrants, the homeless, and alcoholics were arrested and sent to concentration camps.

fcit.usf.edu...

If you must persist with the "We owe Jews a homland and special protection because of the Holocaust," please keep this in mind.

Why don't we spent so much time and money looking out for Poland?
Why aren't we also fighting for a Roma homeland?

I am truly appaled at what happened during the Holocaust but that isn't an excuse to baby a foreign country. Sorry, this is the real world, if you can't hack it as a country, you aren't going to make it long. if Israel wants to be babied by the US, they should apply for statehood.

I am especially appaled that this protection of a potential holocaust in Israel often comes while we are turning a blind eye to ongoing genocide, such as in Darfur.

2. There was an active resistance movement fighting the Nazis.

Just a taste:

For two years, from 1939 to the summer of 1941, the resistance movements of Europe had found it hard to make much of an impression on the might of the German military. However, they had been useful in gathering intelligence for the Allies. The devastating Blitzkrieg attacks of 1939 to 1941, taking in Poland, Norway, Western Europe and Russia had given little time for each country to prepare any semblance of a secret army to undermine the invaders. Reports from commanders in the field to the German Army’s headquarters (OKW), indicate that the resistance movements were an irritant but no more than this. The savage repression of local populations usually did enough to put people off of joining any local resistance force.

www.historylearningsite.co.uk...

This page has many more articles:
www.experiencefestival.com...


3. At the time most governments were not in a position to fight the Nazis, or did not know what was happening.

This really shouldn't need elaboration, but I'll go at it anyway:

Remember that in the 1920s and 30s, most of Europe was absolutely devestated by fighting in WWI. Specifically, the countries who had lost that war. Their efforts to reconstruct their own countries were hindered by occupation and demands to pay reparitions for WWI. Combine that with loss of life, famine in some places, and staggering inflation.

Ask yourself, beyond individual participation, what were these countries supposed to do? They were not allowed to raise up an army to invade to stop the Nazis. Even if they were, the money that went into that would have been sucked up for reparitions. Even if that wasn't true, where were they supposed to get the manpower for this army when they had just lost WWI, and the rescources when they could marely keep from starving already?

Combine that with the fact that at the time, technology was not as advanced, and it was much easier to conceal a Holocaust-scale opparation. Remember, the Nazis were masters of manipulating information.

As far as US involvement goes, well, that is a whole other convaluted story. We did not even get involved until we we declared war on Japan and were then fighting Germany and Italy by proxy. I do beleive t here was some ultieror motive there, but that's another story.

4. There were many individual people helping the Jews.

Here's just part of a Wiki list:

* Per Anger, Swedish diplomat in Budapest who originated the idea of issuing provisional passports to Hungarian Jews to protect them from arrest and deportation. Anger collaborated with Raoul Wallenberg to save the lives of thousands of Jews.
* Władysław Bartoszewski - Polish Żegota activist.
* Count Folke Bernadotte of Wisborg - Swedish diplomat, who negotiated the release of 27,000 people (a significant number of which were Jews) to hospitals in Sweden.
* Jacob (Jack) Benardout - British diplomat to Dominican Republic before and during World War Two. Issued numerous Dominican Republic visas to Jews in Germany. Only 16 Jewish families arrived in the Dominican Republic (the other Jews dispersed into countries along the way e.g. Britain, America) and so created the Jewish community of The Dominican Republic
* Hiram Bingham IV, American Vice Consul in Marseilles, France 1940-1941.
* José Castellanos Contreras - a Salvadoran army colonel and diplomat who, while working as El Salvador's Consul General for Geneva from 1942-45, and in conjunction with George Mantello, helped save at least 13,000 Central European Jews from Nazi persecution by providing them with false papers of Salvadoran nationality.
* Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, German diplomatic attaché in Denmark. Alerted Danish politician Hans Hedtoft about the imminent German plans deport to Denmark's Jewish community, thus enabling the following rescue of the Danish Jews.
* Frank Foley - British MI6 agent undercover as a passport officer in Berlin, saved around 10,000 people by issuing forged passports to Britain and the British Mandate of Palestine.
* Varian Fry - American journalist who saved 2,000 - 4,000 Jews, including many prominent artists and intellectuals.
* Albert Göring - German businessman (and younger brother of leading Nazi Hermann Göring) who helped Jews and dissidents survive in Germany
* Paul Grüninger - Swiss commander of police who provided falsely dated papers to over 3,000 refugees so they could escape Austria following the Anschluss.
* Kiichiro Higuchi - lieutenant general in the Imperial Japanese Army
* Wilm Hosenfeld - German officer who helped pianist Wladyslaw Szpilman, a Polish Jew, among many others.
* Prince Constantin Karadja - Romanian diplomat, who saved over 51,000 Jews from deportation and extermination, as credited by Yad Vashem in 2005.[18]
* Jan Karski - Polish emissary of Armia Krajowa to Western Allies and eye-witness of the Holocaust.
* Necdet Kent - Turkish Consul General at Marseille, who granted Turkish citizenship to hundreds of Jews. At one point he entered an Auschwitz-bound train at enormous personal risk to save 70 Jews, to whom he had granted Turkish citizenship, from deportation.
* Zofia Kossak-Szczucka - Polish founder of Zegota.
* Carl Lutz - Swiss consul in Budapest, managed to provide safe-conducts for emigration to Palestine to many thousands of Hungarian Jews.
* Luis Martins de Souza Dantas - Brazilian in charge of the Brazilian diplomatic mission in France. He granted Brazilian visas to several Jews and other minorities persecuted by the Nazis. He was proclaimed as Righteous among the Nations in 2003.[19]
* George Mantello (b. George Mandl) - El Salvador's honorary consul for Hungary, Romania, and Czechoslovakia - provided fictive Salvadoran citizenship papers for thousands of Jews and spearheaded a publicity campaign that eventually ended the deportation of Jews from Hungary to Auschwitz.[20][21]
* Paul V. McNutt - United States High Commissioner of the Philippines, 1937-1939, who facilitated the entry of Jewish refugees into the Philippines.[22]
* Helmuth James Graf von Moltke - adviser to the Third Reich on international law; active in Kreisau Circle resistance group, sent Jews to safe haven countries.
* Delia Murphy - wife of Dr. Thomas J. Kiernan, Irish minister in Rome 1941-1946, who worked with Hugh O'Flaherty and was part of the network that saved the lives POWs and Jews from the hands of the Gestapo.[23]
* Giovanni Palatucci - Italian police official who saved several thousand.
* Giorgio Perlasca - Italian. When Ángel Sanz Briz was ordered to leave Hungary, he falsely claimed to be his substitute and continued saving some thousands more Jews.

Check out the article, it lists more people, and entire countries.
en.wikipedia.org...

Please keep this info in mind.

reply to post by asmeone2


People tend to forget that there was no internet or television to broadcast images of the holocaust taken by imbedded reporters. It was a different world, and that world was shocked when it learned just exactly what was going on.

The entire world rose up against Germany (Japan not so much) including Russia and later Italy. People did what they could.

Thank you! Starred.

Being a scandinavian (if not just being a human being), I was angry with the statements being made that Nobody lifted a finger to help during that atrocity. As I was doing research to post something similar, your post arrived and I thank you.

In my mind, there is no good reason to commit murder on any peoples... and especially not based on past events. Otherwise how are we to mature and grow and human beings.

my spare change.

Nicely researched, and well presented.

I wish most people weren't so 'programmed' into following the 'legendary anecdotal' story about 6 million Jews.... It was a horrible atrocity, people gassed and or otherwise destroyed is what makes it horrible, not their creed or nationality.

But it seems like many would rather keep the Hollywood story in their hearts rather than the truth.

reply to post by Maxmars


Christ, I never knew so many Poles died, I always thought it was just Jews. My Grandfather was Polish, him and a friend got caught stealing some bread and were sent to a labour camp. He told me a story one day of how some people were so hungry in the camp they were eating parts of their own flesh and one prisoner bit a chunk out of my grandfather's leg. My grandfather managed to escape but had to go through the freezing Siberian forests to do so. He ended up coming to the UK to live after the war.

Originally posted by asmeone2
3. At the time most governments were not in a position to fight the Nazis, or did not know what was happening.

Of course they knew whatt was happening, it was public knowledge, the Nuremberg Laws were part of a public broadcast, British and American citizens were even present at the actual delivery. Information throughout the build up the war as well as once it had commenced kept trickling out. The British had intelligence operative in Germany and throughout the occupied territories. British SIS actually sent representatives to meet with Hitler. There were no secrets.

Originally posted by asmeone2
Remember that in the 1920s and 30s, most of Europe was absolutely devestated by fighting in WWI. Specifically, the countries who had lost that war. Their efforts to reconstruct their own countries were hindered by occupation and demands to pay reparitions for WWI. Combine that with loss of life, famine in some places, and staggering inflation.

Which is exactly why a second war was needed and why it was permitted to escalate to that point. A lot of money was put into backing the Nazi party and getting Hitler into power, that money came from Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, the US and Britain. War means boom to industry, Germany and eastern Europe represented an industrial heartland. Remember that Hitler laid out his intentions, in full detail, in 1924 with Mein Kampf, everybody knew what to expect if Hitler came to power.

Originally posted by asmeone2
Ask yourself, beyond individual participation, what were these countries supposed to do? They were not allowed to raise up an army to invade to stop the Nazis. Even if they were, the money that went into that would have been sucked up for reparitions. Even if that wasn't true, where were they supposed to get the manpower for this army when they had just lost WWI, and the rescources when they could marely keep from starving already?

Why were they not allowed to raise an army up? You may be confused, it was Germany that wasn't allowed to raise an army up, or at least not one that totalled more that 100,000 personnel. And yet, they did. They were able to do so by using the money invested in industry from overseas, from the very countries that would later declare war on them.

Originally posted by asmeone2
Combine that with the fact that at the time, technology was not as advanced, and it was much easier to conceal a Holocaust-scale opparation. Remember, the Nazis were masters of manipulating information.

No, no, no. Yes Goebbels was a fine orator and understood the power of persausion, but that does not mean that they were always successful. Too much myth is taken for fact when it comes to the Nazis. Take Operation Canned Goods, the manufactured attack on a German border radio station that precipitated the invasion of Poland. This was a miserable failure, they spun it to its full extent, but noone in the international arena was actually fooled. We, by which I mean the British, were already intercepting most radio transmissions out of Germany, we knew that the cover story was fooey. We knew it was fooey not because we intercepted the transmission though, that is the part that failed miserably, there was no transmission. We knew because we had already been told by agents in our employ that the invasion was going to happen.

Later when Operation Reinhard (the mass extermination of the European Jews) commenced, we were also aware of this too. Firstly because of those that had escaped and brought that information with them, but secondly, and more significantly, we knew because we intercepted all the transmissions to Berlin that carried details of those mass exterminations. ULTRA was operational from July 1941, Operation Reinhard commenced well after that date.

Are we now blaming Jews for having the wherewithal, the social cohesiveness, the resources, the education, and the tenacity displayed in the events leading up to the partition and settlement of Israel?

Has any organized group of "Romani", post WWII or present, attempted to secure a homeland for themselves?

Of course many soldiers from many armies, many civilians of many countries, did whatever they could to help hide victims from the camps, helped to liberate the camps, and helped to re-repatriate the victims, Jews, "Romani", gay, infirm, mentally or physically handicapped. Any and all victims of the Nazi terror.

The simple fact of the matter is that a majority of people throughout the world were ignorant of the Holocaust until the Russian and U.S. Armies actually liberated the camps. International leaders at the time had inklings of the atrocities but were either in stunned disbelief, over-taxed in their own responsibilities, indifferent to the plight of either Jews or Eastern European, or actually ignorant themselves.

Great thread, a star and flag from me.

You might also be interested in this thread on this subject that I started:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Originally posted by scottsquared
Are we now blaming Jews for having the wherewithal, the social cohesiveness, the resources, the education, and the tenacity displayed in the events leading up to the partition and settlement of Israel?

Has any organized group of "Romani", post WWII or present, attempted to secure a homeland for themselves?

What about the genocide of Native Americans? They tried to stand up for themselves AND attempted to secure their homeland [which was stolen, by the way], and all they get are broken treaties and "reservations" that constantly shrink in size.

Please note that a State of Israel had been attempted right after WWI. See the League of Nations and the British Mandate of Palestine. The first attempt at Israel did not work out well [obviously it would not]. It was NOT because of the Holocaust, but the Holocaust was rather used as an excuse the second time around. This is why few people know that Israel had been attempted by the World Government before [NWO] and this knowledge is suppressed while the masses believe Israel to be consolation for the Holocaust, which wasn't even a specifically Jewish event.

Also note that the term holocaust means "burned offering/sacrifice" and was an ancient mystery ritual.

The decimation/extermination/holocaust of the Native peoples of the Americas remains the darkest page in American history, not least of all because it is still going on. My wife is part Native American. We have long vowed to do everything in our limited powers to help.

It is in part because of the historical significance of what my ancestors were put through that I have the acute awareness of the plight of the Native Americans. Jews worldwide are charged by their communities to seek out injustice and to act. We are not alone in this, many Christian communities also charge their members in the same manner. If only more congregants of both faiths acted as they are charged to do, the World would be a better place.

Thank you to everyone who has responded and S&F this post!

A big star and flag and this is in the right category also in the conspiracy. This is a conspiracy and probably the motherload of them. The holocaust is what shapes our policies of today so really I think we need to come to grips of reality of what happened, who funded it, and how many people actually died. I hope everyone reads this because yea thats all I hear is 6 million Jews when in reality 60 million people died.

I studied Hitler in great detail in my younger years, read his Mein Kampf, etc. What people don't seem to realize - and I don't know why - is that Hitler didn't have anything against "the Jews" per se - it was what I'll call the "Slavs" he most feared. (Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, Lithuanian, etc.) He was terrified of people who were so prolific in their reproducing efforts. If any of you have a drop of Eastern-European blood, you know what I mean - my grandmother came from a family of 20 kids. For some reason, he thought the "Slavs" would take over the world, due to their increasing number. He also felt they were a "subhuman race" not worthy of reproducing. So he believed he needed to stop this by killing them. It just so happens that alot of the Polish, Russians, Ukrainians, etc. were also "Jewish" - but his hatred/disgust was not directed towards the Jewish part of these people. Why history and the media continually equate "Hitler" to "anti-Jewish" is beyond me. Hitler was anti-Slav, not anti-Jewish. BTW, this is not "conspiracy" - this is 100% fact. If you don't believe me, google Slav and Hitler and/or read the German or English translation of Hitler's autobiography, Mein Kampf, available free on the interwebs.

reply to post by themamayada


Excellent point! It is interesting when you look at how much planning, debate and deliberation went into the Jewish Question compared to the Slavic one. It took years for them to finally resolve to murder the Reich Jews, with the Slavs they plowed in there without any hesitation.

That was a damn good OP, S&F! It's good to see someone who's up on their facts for a change on this subject!

I agree wholeheartedly that the polish were and are ignored from high school textbooks. Never, ever learned of those numbers, or any distinct class of victims beyond "12 million people were killed and tortured by nazi' in WWII, 6 million of those were Jewish." No other persons of another race were singled out specifically."

6 million jewish stuck right in the forefront of my mind for years, better than a decade.

Now comes present day- pretty much- as it was this past thanksgiving.

My husband and family went to D.C. for the holiday, and visited the Washington Holocaust Memorial. Even there, they spew out the same propaganda.

ONLY this time, the Polish were mentioned, and immediately mocked by the tour guide! The Polsih people were ridiculed because they attempted to stand up to the nazis with barbaric weapons- ie, stones, sticks, etc.

My sister-in-law, who is polish and whose family members survived the camps, was incensed. Oh, did I say incensed? I'm meant royally p***ed off. Incredibly, those who work in the museum who undoubtedly kiss zionist ass, had the gall to mock these people!

Well, needless to say, we were quaintly asked to leave when my group became vocal, disagreeing with such mocks, and not-so-eloguently or quietly pointed out- "At least they ( the polish) tried to do something, tried to fight back instead of willingly be victimized ( now martyred- I know I'm evil) by the nazi regime.

That being said, and while I'm normally a pacifist with little complaint, I despise how one group of people are considered victims which need to be treated with saintly gloves while another were and still are made to be a joke.

I have and will never have anything but great remorse and pain for the people who were killed, tortured, maimed, or who fought in WWII.

And for the mockery, if we make it of one, we make it of all, and no one, not the victims who died horrifically, or the soldiers who fought bravely, will have any kind of real peace if we let others distort the truth.

As I believe someone has already mentioned, the jews were not the only ones that were slaughtered. Hitler was focused on creating a perfect world, peopled by Aryans only.
Hitler's top people were very much into the occult, and the religion they formed was was very much "holocaust" oriented, in the true meaning of the work.
While we are speaking of of holocausts, what of Japan? Has anyone studied what they did in Korea and China?
What about Stalin and his purges? They were not just political. He targeted Christians and Jews.
And while we're at it, let's not forget polpot and the Khymer rouge.
My point is this: Holocausts keep happening, and we, as a society, are doing nothing to stop it.
And yes, I believe the there were six million jews killed during WWII, in addtion to the Poles, the Christians , The Romany, the gays,
The true numbers will probably never be known.
But Israel is now a state and has been, officially, since 1948. They have survived attack upon attack from their neighbors. They will continue to exist.

Originally posted by themamayada
... Hitler didn't have anything against "the Jews" per se - it was what I'll call the "Slavs" he most feared. .....

Holy Crap, a reader! You'd think more people would have caught on to that by now!

I can never bring this up in my more 'polite' society. You can actually hear their paradigms shifting as they grope for some response!

The biased ones then focus on you having researched the matter makes you somehow, 'out of place' in their world.

It was funny to me that I always suspected the entire anti-Jew flavor brought to the war was because of the 'grass roots' prejudices the soldiers held against what they must have regarded as 'those' people. Lower-class Europeans were notoriously suspicious of the cohesive and odd Jewish folk.

It would also explain that when the final solution was implemented there were specific and direct orders given to the troops locally that when rounding up these people were insofar as possible not to be mistreated. (They were sent to the camps nevertheless and their fate was shared by many unfortunate souls.)

But the fact that he thought 'let's not treat our own people that way' has meaning in regards to the meme that the whole thing was about exterminating Jews. That whole 'flavor' of the war becomes suspect, when you consider that they did not suffer alone, nor were they able to be saved by their own efforts.

As usual the end of the story shows that, like it or not, we are all on this planet together, so we had better figure out how to do it without having to cause misery and woe, or it won't last long. War is not the answer, social engineering is not the answer, central control is not the answer. You can't force mankind to do anything. None of that works. Time for a new paradigm. Struggling to hold on to the old ones just makes things worse.

reply to post by orderedchaos
A little known incident from world war II. The Germans were advancing in Poland with Tanks. The Polish Calvary(horse mounted) attacked, and defeated the platoon of tanks. The Poles have always had my respect for their resistance to the Nazis, and their willingness to fight with whatever they had at hand. (A well thrown stone, striking the appropriate part of the anatomy can severely injure or even kill a soldier in WWII uniform)

reply to post by orderedchaos


My mother visited Auschwitz a year or so ago and she said that it was the opposite there, they don't like the Jewish experience to be emphasised. Although the literature refers in passing to the Holocaust of the Jews, the tour guide made no mention of it at all. It is a shame that it has become a matter of rivalry to prove who suffered the most. But, the Eastern European version of events was suppressed for a very long time, we have until only recently learned in any great detail about what happened to the Slavic peoples. Those that survived the mass shootings and concentration camp system found themselves post-war trapped behind the iron curtain. The only reason the emphasis is on the Jewish experience is because more of them escaped with their lives and freedom to tell the tale.

Originally posted by Maxmars
It would also explain that when the final solution was implemented there were specific and direct orders given to the troops locally that when rounding up these people were insofar as possible not to be mistreated. (They were sent to the camps nevertheless and their fate was shared by many unfortunate souls.)

It is not that cut and dried really. The Slavic peoples looked different and spoke another language. They could be more readily dehumanised. Even so, those men who participated in the mass executions in Poland of men, women and children were horribly traumatised by the experience. Many suffered complete mental breakdowns, alcoholism was rife and in some cases encouraged. For Himmler, on whose shoulders the planning for the murder of the Reich Jews fell, another solution had to be found. He wanted to ensure the minimal mental trauma to his men. This meant keeping the knowledge that they were facing certain death from those on the death transports. They went to great pains to maintain the facade.

The implementation of Action Reinhard is unique, in terms of genocide, in that it industrialised the entire process. This was not only for the sake of expediency but also, because Himmler wished for the process to be 'humane'. He considered it euthanasia, the ending of unwanted life. Many of those involved in Reinhard were graduates of the T4 Euthanasia project which had murdered scores of mentally and physically impaired men, women and children in the Reich and Poland. The Reich Jews, in the most part, never entered the concentration camp system. They were taken directly from their homes to the ghettos in the east and from the ghettos to one of the Action Reinhard camps where they were murdered on arrival.

Action Reinhard should be considered seperately to the deaths that resulted from the invasion of Poland and the subsequent push east, which in turn should be considered seperately from those who died in the concentration camps from neglect and/or forced labour. The problem is that we heap them all together when they each represent a seperate type of crime with different perpetrators.