Originally posted by asmeone2
I am truly appaled at what happened during the Holocaust but that isn't an excuse to baby a foreign country. Sorry, this is the real world, if you can't hack it as a country, you aren't going to make it long. if Israel wants to be babied by the US, they should apply for statehood.

I agree almost entirely with what you're saying...but I stress the word almost

This statement you made, "Sorry, this is the real world, if you can't hack it as a country, you aren't going to make it long." makes me wonder. I know your intentions are good, but it's statements like that that can make you lose points in an argument, or essay writing competition.

Let's take the "real world" scenario as you say...and apply it to the real world. Many countries and even continents need help from other countries because they are too weak financially, technologically and economically to fight some opposing countries. That statement is not needed in an argument such as this. Are you an American? Do you live in America? England? Russia? If so...speak for yourself. You live in a powerhouse country. Some other countries just can't "hack it as a country." Understood?

Another thing I must point out to you is the fact that Hitler got a lot of help from other countries...America included. I believe it was Prescott Bush that funded Hitler to some extent. You make the argument that many people did not know what was going on. I beg to differ. I think many, many people in power knew what was going on and what was going to happen. Maybe saying, no one lifted a finger to help them isn't very accurate, but I can safely say...many who could have helped them, didn't lift a finger. See, when you put it like that...it makes it a little more historically correct, now doesn't it?

And that being the case...is a horrible history to present to the world...and that's why they try so very hard to hide that part of History.

When you have power of the press, Hollywood and the media you tend to get your story told over and over.

Why do people think this is such a big deal?

If I had power of the press I would do the same damn thing, people would hear my story before any other story's.

This is not a Jewish thing buy a human nature thing. Those who hold power in certain areas delegate what is heard and what is not.

[edit on 1-1-2009 by Realtruth]

very true.
I am from Poland so we have pretty good rememberance how it really was during the WWII. even two of my granpa's brothers were executed by the Germans for hiding the jewish family.

but I used to the info like "concentration camps were in Poland" and others absurds.

anyway it is nice to bring some light also on some kistorical issues as WWII. especially when disinfo about it is still used to achive some present deals - look Gaza. you can not still say to Jews that what they are doing there is real holocaust simply because you are confirmed Jew hater and almost Nazi supporter.

Originally posted by StonyJ
Shame Shame Shame. To minimize the Jews persecution is reprehensible.

My uncle lost 3 sisters and his parents in Treblinka. He is now the President of the Holocaust Museum in Skokie, IL, a haven of holocaust survivors in the US.

Whatever anti-zionists might feel or believe, this happened.

No one is saying it didn't happen, friend. We all feel for your loss.

But, to minimize the suffering of all those other persons in order to make martyrs of the Jewish people is inexcusable.

Why should the suffering and death of one group be emphasized to the point that all the others who suffered and died shrink into insignificance? All the others who were put to death seem to have become nothing more than a footnote in the back pages of a textbook.

Try to put yourself in someone else's shoes. You may find they hurt much more than your own.

I want to congratulate the OP for a concise, well-researched post; much better than so many posts on this site.

I also congratulate the people responding; this thread could easily have gone completely off track.

One point I want to make, a couple of posters actually read "Mein Kampf". I never have, so I've never commented on it. Most people who comment on it (not just at ATS, but in every day life) have never read it, but they cite what they've been told about is as being the absolute truth.

Starred and flagged.

Originally posted by chickenshoes
No one is saying it didn't happen, friend. We all feel for your loss.

But, to minimize the suffering of all those other persons in order to make martyrs of the Jewish people is inexcusable.

No victim of the Nazis has set themselves higher than any other victim. The Jewish victims themselves have never said that what they suffered was worse than any other affected demographic, not that I am aware of anyway. That Israel and other nations use it to gain consent for their own oppressive actions is merely par for the course, but bears no reflection on the experience and suffering of the individual.

Those other victims were either entirely wiped out, as in the case of the Roma and Sinti peoples, or the victims found themselves liberated from the Nazis only to be interred in gulags under their new occupiers the Soviet block. It is only since 1983/4 and the fall of the Berlin Wall that scholars have been able to explore the Eastern European experience in detail, and only since Putin came to power that Russia has opened its archives to the west to permit a more complete picture of those events from being reconstructed. The Cold War served not only to prolong hostilities, it also served to hide information from us, most particularly the extent of the slave labour programme. Most of those who were used as slave labour and had the good fortune to survive were rapidly repatriated to Soviet territory and never got to tell their side of the story. This can hardly be blamed upon the Jews of northern and central europe, who having survived could not then be silenced or hidden away.

if Israel wants to be babied by the US, they should apply for statehood

I love that quote... hahaha

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


No victim of the Nazis has set themselves higher than any other victim.

Maybe you aren't understanding me. Maybe I'm not expressing myself very well.

It certainly seems to me that many people (including the person I was replying to) emphasize what the Jewish people suffered, to the exclusion of all others who underwent identical or worse.

And, I think that is inexcusable. Why would one groups lives be worth more than any other? Last I checked, we were all members of the human race.

At any rate, I should probably just back away slowly [backing away]

I am merely an opinion donor, at best.

Originally posted by chickenshoes

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout


No victim of the Nazis has set themselves higher than any other victim.

Maybe you aren't understanding me. Maybe I'm not expressing myself very well.

It certainly seems to me that many people (including the person I was replying to) emphasize what the Jewish people suffered, to the exclusion of all others who underwent identical or worse.

And, I think that is inexcusable. Why would one groups lives be worth more than any other? Last I checked, we were all members of the human race.

At any rate, I should probably just back away slowly [backing away]

I am merely an opinion donor, at best.

what other people

experienced identical *your word* suffering as Jews during WW2

really... I am sure many polish people here will strongly disagree that this is "weak".. are you trying to say that the polish people were not exterminated like the jews? Perhaps you should read the ops post on this thread...