American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

reply to post by whiteraven

whiteraven, Thank you for the thoughtful post about Jesus...you are righton!

Originally posted by cruzion

I have no idea where you get your information from.

Did you skip the 100 quotes on the first few pages of the thread?

OT curious

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
I use the term The Gods meaning; that perhaps there are different colonies or sections of the universe that different Gods reign over, or supervise.

oh. So like creators that are divided into different areas to rule. Perhaps this could be so, but one creator over all of creation (which is also part of the creator) makes more sense to me. If God in this sense was divided It wouldn't be as great. There is also another possibilty that I have always struggled with which is duality. Like why is their something rather than nothing? Perhaps their is part nothing and part something, but isn't that rather contradictory because if something exists than nothing cannot exist. And we see that something does exist, but that would mean that something is infinite and that creates inbalance with the nothing that doesn't exist at all. Sorry if that is a little irrelevent or confusing, just trying to make a point which I don't even understand completely myself.

Originally posted by dAlen
I dont know...but perhaps its because people are finding out Jesus wasnt a Christian...muslim...or anything else for that matter.

He taught that the journey is for the individual and not for the individual to force on others. Pauls saying, "work out your own salvation" rings true here.

All nations would do good to drop religion, Jesus didnt need religion, nor labels to define and box him in. He lived as he did in the very moment he had...'now'.

Peace

dAlen

Nice post!!!!!

Thank you...I think my signature supports your point...glad you stopped by!

OT

reply to post by OldThinker


Again, it seems to me that rather than debate the points brought up by myself and other posters, you just spout biblical quotes! Hardly the best way to sway non-believers to your point of view, is it?

Whilst your quotes show that the bible claims God will not acknowledge those who have sinned in his name, they don't address the fact that many have! As the original topic of this discussion was why America is seemingly no longer a Christian country, perhaps that is yet another reason why people are turning away? As the masses have become more educated, they have become more aware of all the death that has been caused in Christ's name and they wish to disassociate themselves from that. Not to mention the hypocrisy of all those TV evangelists begging for cash whilst living in big fancy homes, or those paedophile Catholic priests, or a former Nazi Pope. There are so many reasons people will turn away, and not a great deal to bring them back...

By the way, please (and not just OT) let's have no 'Catholic and Christian aren't the same thing' nonsense! Fundamentally, yes they are. Catholics believe in the same Christ, ergo they are Christian. I should know, I was raised a Catholic. I just realised it was BS at a young age.

reply to post by sotp
What do you want ME to debate?

Am I smarter than God's word?


I'll try, but it seems you are averse to the Bible?

OT

You and I disagree about prophets lying? Where'd you get that misconception? My opinion is routed in more than my opinion...is yours?

And I never mentioned Catholic/Christian debate?

Please don't lump me in with your hard past, or ignorant postings on ATS, ok?

OT

Originally posted by sotp
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Not to mention the hypocrisy of all those TV evangelists begging for cash whilst living in big fancy homes, or those paedophile Catholic priests, or a former Nazi Pope. There are so many reasons people will turn away, and not a great deal to bring them back...

Fair point here....all pretty stupid stuff!

Originally posted by sotp
reply to post by OldThinker

 

Again, it seems to me that rather than debate the points brought up by myself and other posters, you just spout biblical quotes! Hardly the best way to sway non-believers to your point of view, is it?

sotp, please get use to it...OT doesn't just read the Bible....I honor it, with a life of loving justice and showing mercy...to the best of my ability...


Bud you statement above is flat out wrong....I will never win by cleverness of words, my words are emtpy/human/finite...


God's word are powerful/right and the ONLY persuasive tool...


Back in the day at church, when youwere there, remember the Apostle Paul, who said...

1 Cor 2:1-5 1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God. NASU

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

I too, believe that Jesus was real, but not in how he has been portrayed by Christianity. I

MP, this is probably the best short blub in the whole thread!! Once again you bring the A GAME to OT's thread...

Here's an eight minute video that sums up my take on Jesus...and even noobfun thought it was great!

www.youtube.com...

[edit on 30-12-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by GlossomBoodchild

Well, your whole faith is based on a guy in the sky and a fable that someone wrote in a book and called it "The Bible"...this is all even beyond silly...:

Well G, Here's some EXTRA Biblical proof on Jesus...


Josephus on Crucifixion

Josephus on The invasion of Palestine by Antiochus Epiphanies c. 167 B.C.E. giving rise to the Maccabean revolt (Channukah).

3. "King Antiochus returning out of Egypt (16) for fear of the Romans, made an expedition against the city Jerusalem; and when he was there, in the hundred and forty-third year of the kingdom of the Seleucides, he took the city without fighting, those of his own party opening the gates to him. And when he had gotten possession of Jerusalem, he slew many of the opposite party; and when he had plundered it of a great deal of money, he returned to Antioch.

4. Now it came to pass, after two years, in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of that month which is by us called Chislev, and by the Macedonians Apelleus, in the hundred and fifty-third olympiad, that the king came up to Jerusalem, and, pretending peace, he got possession of the city by treachery; at which time he spared not so much as those that admitted him into it, on account of the riches that lay in the temple; but, led by his covetous inclination, (for he saw there was in it a great deal of gold, and many ornaments that had been dedicated to it of very great value,) and in order to plunder its wealth, he ventured to break the league he had made. So he left the temple bare, and took away the golden candlesticks, and the golden altar [of incense], and table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of burnt-offering]; and did not abstain from even the veils, which were made of fine linen and scarlet.

He also emptied it of its secret treasures, and left nothing at all remaining; and by this means cast the Jews into great lamentation, for he forbade them to offer those daily sacrifices which they used to offer to God, according to the law. And when he had pillaged the whole city, some of the inhabitants he slew, and some he carried captive, together with their wives and children, so that the multitude of those captives that were taken alive amounted to about ten thousand. He also burnt down the finest buildings; and when he had overthrown the city walls, he built a citadel in the lower part of the city, (17) for the place was high, and overlooked the temple; on which account he fortified it with high walls and towers, and put into it a garrison of Macedonians. However, in that citadel dwelt the impious and wicked part of the [Jewish] multitude, from whom it proved that the citizens suffered many and sore calamities.

And when the king had built an idol altar upon God's altar, he slew swine upon it, and so offered a sacrifice neither according to the law, nor the Jewish religious worship in that country. He also compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God, and to adore those whom he took to be gods; and made them build temples, and raise idol altars in every city and village, and offer swine upon them every day. He also commanded them not to circumcise their sons, and threatened to punish any that should be found to have transgressed his injunction. He also appointed overseers, who should compel them to do what he commanded. And indeed many Jews there were who complied with the king's commands, either voluntarily, or out of fear of the penalty that was denounced.

But the best men, and those of the noblest souls, did not regard him, but did pay a greater respect to the customs of their country than concern as to the punishment which he threatened to the disobedient; on which account they every day underwent great miseries and bitter torments; for they were whipped with rods, and their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified, while they were still alive, and breathed. They also strangled those women and their sons whom they had circumcised, as the king had appointed, hanging their sons about their necks as they were upon the crosses. And if there were any sacred book of the law found, it was destroyed, and those with whom they were found miserably perished also."

Flavius Josephus "Antiquities of the Jews" 12: Chapter 5

Also:

Josephus wrote about Alexander Jannaeus, the Maccabean king (103-76 B.C.E.), who turned against the Pharisees and had hundreds crucified.

2. "Now as Alexander fled to the mountains, six thousand of the Jews hereupon came together [from Demetrius] to him out of pity at the change of his fortune; upon which Demetrius was afraid, and retired out of the country; after which the Jews fought against Alexander, and being beaten, were slain in great numbers in the several battles which they had; and when he had shut up the most powerful of them in the city Bethome, he besieged them therein; and when he had taken the city, and gotten the men into his power, he brought them to Jerusalem, and did one of the most barbarous actions in the world to them; for as he was feasting with his concubines, in the sight of all the city, he ordered about eight hundred of them to be crucified; and while they were living, he ordered the throats of their children and wives to be cut before their eyes.

This was indeed by way of revenge for the injuries they had done him; which punishment yet was of an inhuman nature, though we suppose that he had been never so much distressed, as indeed he had been, by his wars with them, for he had by their means come to the last degree of hazard, both of his life and of his kingdom, while they were not satisfied by themselves only to fight against him, but introduced foreigners also for the same purpose; nay, at length they reduced him to that degree of necessity, that he was forced to deliver back to the king of Arabia the land of Moab and Gilead, which he had subdued, and the places that were in them, that they might not join with them in the war against him, as they had done ten thousand other things that tended to affront and reproach him.

However, this barbarity seems to have been without any necessity, on which account he bare the name of a Thracian among the Jews (40) whereupon the soldiers that had fought against him, being about eight thousand in number, ran away by night, and continued fugitives all the time that Alexander lived; who being now freed from any further disturbance from them, reigned the rest of his time in the utmost tranquility."

Flavius Josephus "Antiquities of the Jews" 13: Chapter 14

Originally posted by sotp
I should know, I was raised a Catholic. I just realised it was BS at a young age.

What was bad about it?

You "realized" at a YOUNG AGE it was BS?

So as an adult, assuming you are, you NOW base your life...on a decision MADE AS A CHILD?

Do you have any room to learn as an adult? Is it in the realm you can change?

OT

Originally posted by OldThinker

What do you want ME to debate?

Am I smarter than God's word?


I'll try, but it seems you are averse to the Bible?

What do I want you to debate? How about ANY of the points being made! You don't directly address anything unless it's something you agree with, be it in my posts or others.
I never said you were smarter than 'God's word' (not that I believe that it is actually God's word) and I would have thought by now it was obvious to all that I am not exactly enamoured with the bible.

Originally posted by OldThinker
You and I disagree about prophets lying? Where'd you get that misconception? My opinion is routed in more than my opinion...is yours?

My opinion is based in FACT! Of all prophecies made, be they biblical or otherwise, the amount that come to pass is a very small percentage and likely naught but coincidence. You can't deny that. Wait, you probably will...

Originally posted by OldThinker

And I never mentioned Catholic/Christian debate?

Please don't lump me in with your hard past, or ignorant postings on ATS, ok?

OT

I didn't actually say you did, it was more of a pre-emptive strike against those who would. Nor did I say I had a hard past, unless you count being dragged to church to listen to some dude spout fairytales on a Sunday morning. It wasn't fun, but it wasn't as bad as being beaten around the head with a frozen chicken. Not that I've ever been assaulted with chilled poultry, I just assume it wouldn't be nice...

Originally posted by OldThinker

sotp, please get use to it...OT doesn't just read the Bible....I honor it, with a life of loving justice and showing mercy...to the best of my ability...

Bud you statement above is flat out wrong....I will never win by cleverness of words, my words are emtpy/human/finite...

God's word are powerful/right and the ONLY persuasive tool...

Well, I am getting used to it as it's pretty much all you do. Don't think you won't win by cleverness of words, you might if you actually tried! I can tell you right now, quoting the bible will not sway a non-believer. More than likely it drive them further away from your point of view. Telling us the bible says this or that doesn't actually tell us why we should agree with you. Do you see what I'm getting at here? It's not a real debate when you don't properly engage your opponent. I haven't seen any non-believers come in here and quote the work of Richard Dawkins in the way you quote the bible. Of course, this pointless quoting is not only done by yourself. It seems to be de rigueur for Christians in these kind of discussions. Why is that? Is it that you all realise we non-believers have a very valid argument but you don't want to agree lest ye spend eternity in the fires of hell with Lucifer's pitchfork up your backsides?

It's okay to agree, because He is a forgiving God, yes? A bit of death-bed repentance should be all you need...

[edit on 30/12/08 by sotp]

Originally posted by sotp

Originally posted by OldThinker

What do you want ME to debate?

Am I smarter than God's word?


I'll try, but it seems you are averse to the Bible?

What do I want you to debate? How about ANY of the points being made!

Like what?

Which points?

Here I am?

What points?

Originally posted by sotp

Originally posted by OldThinker

Originally posted by OldThinker
You and I disagree about prophets lying? Where'd you get that misconception? My opinion is routed in more than my opinion...is yours?

My opinion is based in FACT! Of all prophecies made, be they biblical or otherwise, the amount that come to pass is a very small percentage and likely naught but coincidence. You can't deny that. Wait, you probably will...

100% Accuracy....that is the kicker!!!

"Of all prophecies made..."

less than 100, no prophet!

And I haven't seen any FACTS man, just YOUR TAKE!

Remember this one...

There is a way which seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.

Prov 14:12

Opinions are like a-hols (you know what I mean)_ EVERYBODYS GOT ONE AND THEY USALLY STINK!

Originally posted by sotp
... but it wasn't as bad as being beaten around the head with a frozen chicken. Not that I've ever been assaulted with chilled poultry, I just assume it wouldn't be nice...

"Now that's funny I don't care who you are!" Larry the cable guy

I think we still are a mostly Christian nation. We have leaders that are really messed up though. We also are letting our culture slip a little bit, calling Sin a 'problem' or saying EVERY behavior is ok.

Things are not traditional anymore. Most grandparents never went through a divorce, most parents have. Change for the better?

Christians themselves, are having a bit of a struggle too.

All you can do is love others, love God, and keep on keeping on.

Originally posted by calibanvov

Things are not traditional anymore. Most grandparents never went through a divorce, most parents have. Change for the better?

Calibanvov,

Now that's a perceptive question....I'm afraid most will ignore it, stick their heads in the secular-progressive sand, and deny away, the truth of what you have said!

Funny things have really gotten worse since 1963...I'm a stat guy, it's what I do....divorce is an "effect"....OT wonders what the "cause" would be?

Couple hints...the state of MD, and a kids who's a reverend now? hmmm? Readers? Any ideas?

We are quietly being switched over to Talmudic Law. Have you read the Talmud? www.come-and-hear.com...