American was a Christian Nation-What happened?

And lastly part 4….OT needs some sleep soon…thanks to all for reading…

Here’s some more scientific factoids to ponder…

On the clearest night possible…with the naked eye…go out…better yet go atop the highest mountain near you…on the clearest night…and count…count the stars…I bet you can count a lot…but not an infinite amount…you will come up with a number, for sure…

Yet…the Bible spoke a scientific fact…may many years before we had telescopes…that the number of stars is endless…or at least a whole bunch more than we can count readily…correct? Another one of those old ‘scientists’ named Jeremiah said…"I will make the descendants of David my servant and the Levites who minister before me as countless as the stars of the sky and as measureless as the sand on the seashore.'"

Also Charlton Heston, I mean MOSES said of the LORD to Abraham…"I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,"

My man, Jacob "But you have said, 'I will surely make you prosper and will make your descendants like the sand of the sea, which cannot be counted.'" in Genesis 32… also in Gen 15…”He took him outside and said, "Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."

Also what about the old dudes speaking of "valleys" existing beneath the sea? Thousands and thousands of years ago?? How could they have known of this…satellites maybe? Probably not too probable, huh?
See…”The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth laid bare at the rebuke of the Lord, at the blast of breath from his nostrils. - 2 Samuel 22:16 Oh, I see they were seismic experts?

Originally posted by Government Cheese
...and realized religion is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on mankind.

Good point about RELIGION....heck there's a new one started every month. I think many of these men had more than that...thoughts?

Ok, after all your "evidence" can you just help me out on this one little thing? How can you know that the God you believe in is who you think He is? Could not Satan perform such tricks and provide such "evidence" so that he could gain the majority of the world's popularity under the disguise of God? Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some seperate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity. Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God? Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways? Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissfull ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?

Also the muslims, hindu's and other religions...come here...for freedom, both to worship...or as my searching atheists freedom NOT to ...BECAUSE of the wisdom of those founding Christians...

I have no idea where you get your information from.
The pilgrims were puritans, that left England to form their colonies, because king James (of the king james bible fame) was not hard line enough. They weren't persecuted - merely restricted, because they were zealots. Those are the founders.
America is pretty retarded: I never met a creationist till coming here, and I lived in a few places in the world. What's really scary is people know more about Noah than natural selection.

"christian" no. Religious..yes. But the instinct does not come from Christian roots but rather original pagan roots, because to be christian today is to be well off and drug/drink free but what about everyone else? As we see modern Christians as well as past Christians didnt ask for real liberty but with condition which is the downfall. Basicly how can liberty exist if a person is held back from experience by an unreasonable, and illogical belief in a god which can only loosely be proven? Isnt the reason we are here to experience surrogately for what we believe god is? We are probes, created by a being interwoven in space- time. What we call and misunderstand as God is that which is all around us in silent hope.

I dont know...but perhaps its because people are finding out Jesus wasnt a Christian...muslim...or anything else for that matter.

He taught that the journey is for the individual and not for the individual to force on others. Pauls saying, "work out your own salvation" rings true here.

All nations would do good to drop religion, Jesus didnt need religion, nor labels to define and box him in. He lived as he did in the very moment he had...'now'.

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by OldThinker


You can quote the founding fathers all you want. Bush ends each speech with God Bless and you see what we think of him.

The religous preferences of the founding fathers have no bearing on how we feel about things today.
The world is a much bigger and smaller place at the same time.


What are people less thrilled with Christianity?

Because America, above all else, is about choice.

We chose to come here. We chose independence. We choose our leaders(for the most part) We choose our partners, we choose our clothes.
We have a choice of 55 varieties of ketchup. 100 oatmeal, and 35 types of jeans.

We like choice.

There is the arrogance of the Christian church that says that they are the only way, the only religion, and all are going to hell if we don't choose it.
Jesus is the only way.

And the fervor at which the followers present this message is cultish, and creepy. And my theory is that anyone who tries to convince you of an idea is trying to convince themselves as an idea. These christians are the used car salesmen of the religious world.

Like in so many other ways, Americans are exercising their ability to choose. What they want to believe, and how they want to believe it.
And many of the church customs seems about as archaic as a witchdoctor on the stairs of a temple sacrificing virgins.

A man in a funny robe trained by a man in a funny robe has no more inkling about God then my three year old.

And such a person is not in a position to dictate my belief in God. But they do.

it is not that Americans are less religious, it is that Americans are choosing to pursue their own personal relationship about God, instead of a middleman dictating how to do so.
ANd a personal journey with God is far more satisfying then going to church on Sunday reciting hymns that some person you have never met, wrote, massed produced by a publisher, reading a book that is massed produced by a publisher.

Nothing about God should ever be massed produced.

Now the 64,000 dollar question is this:

If every American believed in God and Jesus right now, would the Christian sect be happy? Or will they still pursue the fact that Jesus and God have to be worshipped in a church?In a certain way? By certain standards.

If the answer is yes, then you have your answer why. Because then the intent is to raise money, and put a select group of people in a position of power. And we have had enough of that.

Originally posted by OldThinker

ARE THERE STRONG EVIL FORCES TRYING TO CHANGE THINGS?

Yes, the same strong evil forces that destroyed indian nations and their beliefs

God is real, but he is the Oneness, the Awareness not the materialized God that were actually the aliens who came like thousands of years ago who conducted experiments on apes to create what we are as a species today. There is a Satan and demons, but it is a myth created by the reptilians who rule this world to make the good reptiloids look like evil sadistic monsters (which these reptiloids evolved before humans and are native on Earth but becaues of a catastrophe or something they have to stay underground). Though there is evil and it is called the dark side. You know that light at the end of the tunnel when someone dies? That is an evil being trying to seduce us humans to join him again in his continual conquest and torture of beings he kidnapps and controls in his attempt to conquer this galaxy. His name is the "All-Seeing Eye" and I guess is the real supernatural entity that is the closest threat as Lucifer will ever be to the humans currently on Earth. But I guess the Awareness could come in the form of messiah, but watch out cause the Antichrist could come in the form of MEssiah too...

reply to post by caballero

I find it really suprising Einsteins stance on jesus I thought for sure that he wouldnt have believed in such things. Now im wondering if it was a religion thing or a spiritual belief in jesus's teachings of peace and love.

In reading the chapter on "Einsteins God" he admits to being agnostic. Definitely not atheist! As a matter of fact, it angered him.

I too, believe that Jesus was real, but not in how he has been portrayed by Christianity. I think Einstein knew that this man existed - knowing legends die out, or become relics in time, so the fact that information about this man has been passed down for almost 2,000 years, is of itself a testimony.

Einstein had a real problem with religion, so we don't want to misconstrue his feelings for Jesus on a religious level, but perhaps like you said; an appreciation for a very special man, with very special teachings.

reply to post by dAlen


A *4U!

I dont know...but perhaps its because people are finding out Jesus wasnt a Christian...muslim...or anything else for that matter.

All nations would do good to drop religion, Jesus didnt need religion, nor labels to define and box him in. He lived as he did in the very moment he had...'now'.

Well, said!

I think most of us would be stunned if we truly knew what Jesus said and practiced. He certainly didn't promote religion, but came to set man free from religion, but it has been misconstrued to mean the Judaic Laws.

reply to post by cancerian42

Could not God actually be everything that exists rather than some seperate entity and upon that revelation people began to spread the word, but over time it got mixed up in all the different beliefs that everyone held and came to form the thing we call christianity. Could not Jesus have possibly meant something that you don't get when he said he was God? Could not it all just be a fabrication anyways? Could not you ever be wrong and actually try to grow rather than stagnate in the swamp of blissfull ignorance and unchanging belief based only on possibilities?

Or here is an abstract thought: could he be everything and still be separate?

Man did indeed create Christianity because man needed the security and the rules.

It is really debatable that Jesus even said that he WAS God. We have to remember that all information about him was orally transmitted, and nothing was recorded until much later. Also, that the Bible wasn't based on any original manuscripts, so this leaves much room for error. It is entirely possible that humans left out; "was A" God.

Man seems to have a very difficult time with the possibility of there being many Gods. Yet, the ancient civilizations did not. Not all were monotheistic. Plus, there could be a supreme being along with a lower pecking order of other gods, and each in their domain, with many domains.

Okay OT, there's a bunch of things wrong with some of the statements you have made in your last few posts. It would take ages to cover them all, so I'll only pick out a few...

"...the Bible (torah, prophets, gospels, epistles, revelation) are not 5 books by five authors, but 66 books by 40 authors...who did not know one another, did not live in the same town, did not live in the same time line..."

What about the Apostles? Didn't they hang about with Jesus at the same time? Yet aren't there some discrepancies between their gospels?

"JC knew he wasn't telling the truth, therefore he would be A LIAR"

Yup. How can you be so absolutely sure that Jesus wasn't just a con-man? Maybe some kind of skilled mentalist ala Derren Brown, who could make people believe they were seeing miracles? People back then weren't as educated as we are, not as aware of those techniques, and would be easily deceived by such. It's just a thought, I can't be certain but then neither can you, because without that time machine you keep mentioning we will never know.

"...prophets don't lie..."



I almost wet myself when I read that! It seems to me, given the many, many prophecies that haven't come true over the years that lying is pretty much all they do! I'm sure a lot of prophets believe what they are saying, but come on, how many times have you read of prophecies right here on ATS? How many have come true?

"The influence of Jesus on art, music, and literature is enormous"

No argument there, but you can't say for sure that there wouldn't have been similar advancements. Christ is a subject matter for the artiste, but the techniques developed would likely have come anyway as these are a result of the ingenuity of man.

"WoW! He knew the earth was round and the universe is expanding!"

What?!?! Am I missing something here? As far as I can see, NOWHERE in those quotes does it state that the Earth is round, or that the universe is expanding. The quotes say He 'stretched the Heavens out'. To me that means that He made the sky vast, nothing more.

"What about THE HYDROLOGIC CYCLE?"

What about it? Anyone observing the boiling of water and it's conversion to steam could put two and two together and come up with that explanation, no matter their place in history. It was, like most things, only a theory until science proved it was so.

“Hey did you know Moses went to Oxford? Really, must have…he knew that the future fossil record prove plants were around before animals…”

Really? Okay, for one there is no mention of the fossil records in your quote, and two, you invalidate your argument in the same quote by saying He created fish/birds/animals in that order. Science would not agree with that, as fossil records show it to be fish/animals/birds.

"…the Bible spoke a scientific fact…many many years before we had telescopes…that the number of stars is endless…or at least a whole bunch more than we can count readily…"

Yep, that's all it said. Stating the obvious does not mean that they understood the infinite nature of space, just that they knew there is a LOT of stars!

You also ignore the scientific advancements made in other, non-Christian areas of the world. No mention of the fact that there had been trade going on all over the place for ages before the time of Jesus. Man has always been interested in the accumulation of wealth, so I'd hardly say Christianity was responsible for capitalism.

Look, I would never argue that there hasn't been a lot of good things come from Christianity. There has also been a lot of bad too.
The same can be said for most religions, however, and that is why I think we would be better off without them. We've reached a stage in human development where we know what's right and what's wrong. All we need is a strong moral centre, and we can flourish as a species. All religion seems to do is create division, if you took it away there would be a lot less trouble in the world.



[edit on 29/12/08 by sotp]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
Or here is an abstract thought: could he be everything and still be separate?

I don't understand how that makes any sense. If he exists then he is part or all of existance. He can't be both part and all. Although you can say he is all the parts of existance which actually is all.

Man did indeed create Christianity because man needed the security and the rules.

I was just using that idea as one scenario, however, it isn't known.

It is really debatable that Jesus even said that he WAS God. We have to remember that all information about him was orally transmitted, and nothing was recorded until much later. Also, that the Bible wasn't based on any original manuscripts, so this leaves much room for error. It is entirely possible that humans left out; "was A" God.

That's what I meant.

Man seems to have a very difficult time with the possibility of there being many Gods. Yet, the ancient civilizations did not. Not all were monotheistic. Plus, there could be a supreme being along with a lower pecking order of other gods, and each in their domain, with many domains.

Define God and Gods please. I am confused.

reply to post by cancerian42

I don't understand how that makes any sense. If he exists then he is part or all of existance. He can't be both part and all. Although you can say he is all the parts of existance which actually is all.

I wasn't disagreeing with you but adding my 2 cents worth. Well, he can have his energy that penetrates everything without having to reside in everything. Get my meaning?

Depending on how many filters a person lives through, can fluctuate how much energy we can tap into. For example: addiction is a heavy filter that can block the spirit or energy from helping us, or disables us in connecting.

I use the term The Gods meaning; that perhaps there are different colonies or sections of the universe that different Gods reign over, or supervise. Even tho the Bible says that God is the alpha and the omega (which I believe) doesn't mean he is, over the entire universe, but may be just our own galaxy or earth, etc. He actually may have superiors or peers. This whole human thing may be new, and an experiment.

Obviously, just supposition and may have no truth to it. It is nice to think outside the Bible.

As one who has traveled thousands of miles in search of `Jesus`let me say that the real Jesus...not the American Icon version of him would be strung up faster then you could say `Country bumpkin...

The real Jesus never wrote anything.

The real Jesus stated that we should

love our neighbours as ourselves

The real Jesus told Peter to
Put down the sword



The real Jesus when asked how one could live with him gone said

He would send the Holy Spirit

The real Jesus languished at death and the thought of death.

The real Jesus loved harlots.

The real Jesus hated those who

dressed in long robes on the Sabbath.....hated those who prayed to God saying that they thanked God that they were not like others

OH OH

If America believes in the real Jesus the real America is in big trouble. lol

edit

I wrote thankeld instead of thanked...lol...I kinda like thankeld better...

as in my Wife thankeld me when I washed her car.....haha



[edit on 29-12-2008 by whiteraven]

Originally posted by sotp

"...prophets don't lie..."

I almost wet myself when I read that! It seems to me, given the many, many prophecies that haven't come true over the years that lying is pretty much all they do! I'm sure a lot of prophets believe what they are saying, but come on, how many times have you read of prophecies right here on ATS? How many have come true?

sotp, Appreciate the thoughtful response....


Remember though...

15 “The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, 16 according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.’

17 “And the LORD said to me: ‘What they have spoken is good. 18 I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. 19 And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?’— 22 when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.

'Prophets' CAN'T LIE!!!

If they do, biblically they are NOT prophets...

Thanks again...


I'm kinda busy tonight...we'll respond more later, ok?

OT out

Originally posted by sotp

Look, I would never argue that there hasn't been a lot of good things come from Christianity. There has also been a lot of bad too....

Pleaser remember Matthew 7:20 Therefore, by their fruits you will know them.

7:21 Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

7:22 Many will tell me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?'

7:23 Then I will tell them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

7:24 "Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man, who built his house on a rock.


Not all that says 'Christian' is....

Originally posted by seb2882

Originally posted by OldThinker

ARE THERE STRONG EVIL FORCES TRYING TO CHANGE THINGS?

Yes, the same strong evil forces that destroyed indian nations and their beliefs

Are you proposing we turn back the clock?


Would things be better?

[edit on 29-12-2008 by OldThinker]

Originally posted by nixie_nox
reply to post by OldThinker

 

There is the arrogance of the Christian church that says that they are the only way, the only religion, and all are going to hell if we don't choose it.
Jesus is the only way.

I wonder where that started?

6 Jesus told him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Scary statement, for sure...yes you are right....CHOICE!

You know how far heaven is from hell....only 18inches, from your head to your heart...