Not even Time(age),Space,Matter and other dimensions could ever exist with out a source or a CREATOR

SOMETHING can easily be created out of NOTHING.

According to my sentence above: NOTHING creates

reply to post by spy66


But why are we adding that the "source" must be eternal and infinite, and its impossible for anything else to be?

If your talking of god and "the source" from a deistic approach... which means you view "god" not as an entity, but as the infinite properties that exist, than You are free to define the word "god" as you choose...

however a diestic approach doesn't attribute any personification, or creation to these fundamental laws.

Instead you are implying that an infinite and eternal "source" created all these laws... So I'm less inclined to believe you are taking a deistic approach...

If you look at the laws of probability... given an infinite time span, even the most remote of possibilities will happen by pure chance... not created by an infinite creator.

If time is infinite, than statistical probability and entropy will be creators... however in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics, all matter and energy must also have been around through eternity, and there is no "beginning".

Assuming that everything MUST have been created by an infinite source, but then in the same breath denying the possibility of matter/energy/time/space being infinite, is a contradiction. If a "source" can be infinite, than it stands to reason that other things in the universe could also be infinite...

But if something besides this source can be infinite, than it kind of calls into question on why none of this can happen on its own... independent of a creator...

reply to post by nj2day


Well said.
This was the conundrum that led me to pantheism.
I thought to myself "well, nothing can come from nothing, so something had to come from something!".
Initially, my thoughts were that there had to be a creative force or god to bring the universe into existence.
Later on, it dawned on me, that, if there was a creative force or god, then where did it come from! If it could just pop into existence of its own accord, what was there stopping the universe just popping into existence of ITS own accord! Shortly after that I decided that the universe and God were one and the same thing.
I recently read an article, that the big bang was not an explosion at all - it was a seepage from another universe. That made a lot of sense to me. A small hole in the fabric of another universe, and all this matter got sucked out into the void, like a huge balloon through a pin hole.

I'm somewhat surprised that there are people here that don't understand the difference in the stances of Gnosticism/Agnosticism and Theism/Atheism.

Oh well, this discussion rarely ever goes anywhere anyhow.

reply to post by Good Wolf


I was speaking towards the mention you made of atoms just randomly appearing and disappearing.
The idea of a multiverse may help explain why that happens.

Not saying I buy into the idea, but that is some of the concept being tossed around right now. In any event, you are still stuck with the same question.
It is that question that can never be answered satisfactorily, in my opinion.

Like I said in my first post to this thread, the concept of God still needs to be defined. My concept of God is likely very different than the OP's. I would like some clarification before I can continue with the discussion.

Originally posted by nj2day
reply to post by spy66

 

But why are we adding that the "source" must be eternal and infinite, and its impossible for anything else to be?

If your talking of god and "the source" from a deistic approach... which means you view "god" not as an entity, but as the infinite properties that exist, than You are free to define the word "god" as you choose...

however a diestic approach doesn't attribute any personification, or creation to these fundamental laws.

Instead you are implying that an infinite and eternal "source" created all these laws... So I'm less inclined to believe you are taking a deistic approach...

If you look at the laws of probability... given an infinite time span, even the most remote of possibilities will happen by pure chance... not created by an infinite creator.

If time is infinite, than statistical probability and entropy will be creators... however in accordance with the laws of thermodynamics, all matter and energy must also have been around through eternity, and there is no "beginning".

Assuming that everything MUST have been created by an infinite source, but then in the same breath denying the possibility of matter/energy/time/space being infinite, is a contradiction. If a "source" can be infinite, than it stands to reason that other things in the universe could also be infinite...

But if something besides this source can be infinite, than it kind of calls into question on why none of this can happen on its own... independent of a creator...

Ok ill try again.

Say you have nothing. 0, Nada. No time,space Matter, Energy or anything. Because if you think about the beginning that's where you would have to start. You have to start with "Nothing".

Do you agree that can last for Eternity and that it is Infinity!


If you have NOTHING it can last for Ever. Because it has no Beginning and it has NO end.

And if it has Eternity and Infinity.
Have can Nothing Create. Unless something else has been there always.

Now what created something out of Nothing? Must it be a God?


We have seen that things can appear and vanish out of nothing in a lab.
But have can we say that it came from nothing.
when time and space already exists. That just tells us that we dont have the tools to see where it came from or where it went.

And your still talking about something. But that something didn't come from nothing. Did it.





[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

reply to post by Good Wolf

Thus the singularity is the "First Source," that point that no one, believer, agnostic, or atheist can get around. And since the singularity always existed, i.e. is eternal, that would be the first step to defining God. The second step would be intelligence. Given the precision of the universe, I would argue that the singularity exhibits intelligence.
But the argument is moot, since none of us know, and are unlikely to ever know, what was happening one second before the big bang.

reply to post by spy66


As has been asked, I'll ask again: If God can be created without a creator, then why can't the universe be created without a creator?

The answer you gave was essentially that God has simply always existed.

If God has always existed, then why can't the universe simply have always existed?

Lets say there really is a world with nothing and there is furthermore no structure by which anything can be created. Well, no, you can't say that. If there is a world, there is something because a world is something! So no! So instead of that lets say there was simply nothing before our creation. Well no. Using the word "before" means that before our creation there was time passing. Time is something and not nothing, therefore you can't say that! So no! I hear people on this board say "given infinite time...". No, if there is nothing and only nothing then time does not pass at all.

However, lets say instead that there is no "before the universe began" because before the universe began time did not pass.

Either our universe simply happened for no reason or God happened for no reason. Therefore, things can happen for no reason at all. In the universe we know some things are more likely to happen than others. Therefore I'll speculate that some universes are more likely to happen than others. It may very well be that God happened for no reason. I do believe it is fair to speculate that God is more likely to happen than our universe without God to have happened.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by truthquest]

Kindly peruse the answer to the dilemma:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

How did this start? I've seen it, but don't ask me to explain it, for words do not suffice...

But yes, Something came from Nothing!

Her name can be best described as:

S/He, or The WORD.

reply to post by spy66

Well there "cant" have been "nothing" because nothing is Eternal or infinite. And if something is Infinite or Eternally it cant have a beginning. Because it already "IS" nothing. And it cant be created because it already is "nothing". You cant create Nothing with nothing. No Mather have stupid that sounds. It is logic and common sense.

I've already explained that eternal and infinite do not mean something has no beginning.In debates like this you have to look at the root of the word;eternal means something that is extremely old,infinite means something that is limitless,nothing more.

Say you have nothing. 0, Nada. No time,space Matter, Energy or anything. Because if you think about the beginning that's where you would have to start. You have to start with "Nothing".

So what is God made of? What force did he use to create?
He must be made of something,his power must come from something.

If you have NOTHING it can last for Ever. Because it has no Beginning and it has NO end.

Nothing ends when you have something.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by DantesLost]

Originally posted by truthquest
reply to post by spy66

 

As has been asked, I'll ask again: If God can be created without a creator, then why can't the universe be created without a creator?

The answer you gave was essentially that God has simply always existed.

If God has always existed, then why can't the universe simply have always existed?

Lets say there really is a world with nothing and there is furthermore no structure by which anything can be created. Well, no, you can't say that. If there is a world, there is something because a world is something! So no! So instead of that lets say there was simply nothing before our creation. Well no. Using the word "before" means that before our creation there was time passing. Time is something and not nothing, therefore you can't say that! So no! I hear people on this board say "given infinite time...". No, if there is nothing and only nothing then time does not pass at all.

However, lets say instead that there is no "before the universe began" because before the universe began time did not pass.

Either our universe simply happened for no reason or God happened for no reason. Therefore, things can happen for no reason at all. In the universe we know some things are more likely to happen than others. Therefore I'll speculate that some universes are more likely to happen than others. It may very well be that God happened for no reason. I do believe it is fair to speculate that God is more likely to happen than our universe without God to have happened.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by truthquest]

That's a very good explanation.

But i wonder have things can just happen by chance. If there is nothing. Because there is nothing to create that chance.

To argue about a God would be a reasonable question.

That might explain why we have religion. Because we always try to look for the source.

Originally posted by SS,Naga
Kindly peruse the answer to the dilemma:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

How did this start? I've seen it, but don't ask me to explain it, for words do not suffice...

But yes, Something came from Nothing!

Her name can be best described as:

S/He, or The WORD.

Hi.

I have been there. A lot of good thought on that page no doubt.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by spy66

Perhaps a quantum singularity? One of these would have all the properties required to start the rapid expansion.

I have said quantum singularity numerous times.

No quantum event can exist before time. So if you are argueing that before the big bang there was a quantum singularity, then time had to exist for that singularity to exist, if time existed for this quantum singularity to exist and to be the event of creation or rapid exspansion, then what was there for time to exist before the singularity, and before the event of the big bang? Is this where we insert the OP's creator!

Unfortunately your pseudo-logic fails when attempting to mount quantum mechanics, because according to you, you cannot get something from nothing, however quantum mechanics disagrees. Imagine atoms suddenly 'appearing' then disappearing in a vacuum. It's reality and at first it seems illogical, but there you have it.

Perhaps you may want to apply yourself to the fact that quantum tunneling(particle that pop into existence out of nothing) actually argues for a creator. British astrophysicist Paul Davies actually used quantum tunneling the same way you do in the above quote. He argues in his book, God and the New Physics that quantum tunneling shows that creation of matter is not reliant on God/creator. But as Davies acknowledged later, and I hope you will to GW, quantum mechanics very foundations are based on quantum events occuring according to finite probabilities within finite time intervals. The larger the time interval, the greater the probability that an event will occur. Without time itself, quantum physics fails and so does your example as an arguement against the OP. You cannot argue using quantum mechanics because, logically speaking it does not negate the creator theory, a creator outside of Time as we know it, at the point of creation.

Incidently Davies went on to clarify and change his position when he stated that the Laws of physics "seem themselves to be the product of an ingenious design". But what does he know right!

You still fail to grasp these concepts.

LOL.

I really like you GW. You crack me up. Thanks.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you.





[edit on 20-12-2008 by atlasastro]

Originally posted by DantesLost
reply to post by spy66

 

Well there "cant" have been "nothing" because nothing is Eternal or infinite. And if something is Infinite or Eternally it cant have a beginning. Because it already "IS" nothing. And it cant be created because it already is "nothing". You cant create Nothing with nothing. No Mather have stupid that sounds. It is logic and common sense.

I've already explained that eternal and infinite do not mean something has no beginning.In debates like this you have to look at the root of the word;eternal means something that is extremely old,infinite means something that is limitless,nothing more.

Say you have nothing. 0, Nada. No time,space Matter, Energy or anything. Because if you think about the beginning that's where you would have to start. You have to start with "Nothing".

So what is God made of? What force did he use to create?
He must be made of something,his power must come from something.

If you have NOTHING it can last for Ever. Because it has no Beginning and it has NO end.

Nothing ends when you have something.

[edit on 20-12-2008 by DantesLost]

You are quit right.

But why are you trying to twist what i really mean. Because you know what i mean.

Dont make it into something else. If you can see what i try to tell in my own words.

reply to post by spy66


This is like the question: which came first the chicken or the egg?
You can't simply use logic and come up with an answer, because along the way you make many assumptions which you can't afford to do.
Many of the greatest minds of our time are trying to find this knowledge so they can make a better theory. You can't just make assumptions about what's beyond our universe as if it runs by the same rules that our universe runs on...

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by spy66

 

This is like the question: which came first the chicken or the egg?
You can't simply use logic and come up with an answer, because along the way you make many assumptions which you can't afford to do.
Many of the greatest minds of our time are trying to find this knowledge so they can make a better theory. You can't just make assumptions about what's beyond our universe as if it runs by the same rules that our universe runs on...

Why not!

Isn't that the way one would go to find the truth. We have to ask the questions no mather have they may be.

I or You have no other choice do we. We have to start with what we got always.

I honestly just want to know why either side starts these arguments. It has become beyond apparent that no amount of arguing will make the other side agree with your side. Yet, it continues. For what purpose?

reply to post by spy66


Something must have created it or it cannot exist? how about the creator? where did he come from? Can he create something so powerful that it can destroy him? Can he create another creator?

Topics like this are pointless. You have no proof.

Originally posted by ImaNutter
I honestly just want to know why either side starts these arguments. It has become beyond apparent that no amount of arguing will make the other side agree with your side. Yet, it continues. For what purpose?

Well there is one thing that i have been looking for in all these arguments. And that is that there was hardly no one who dared to consider that there might be a creator(God).

Because in-spite of all of this, and on behalf of my first Post. I cant see have there couldn't be one.

Because that's what my logic and common sense tell me when i think about the beginning of everything.

Why do we deny that there could be a "creator" its common sense.

This is like the question: which came first the chicken or the egg?

That is about 'natural evolution'. There has been no evidence of humans having the same evolution type. Yeah, if I had the choice to walk in one-way down a twolane walkway, which direction would I walk in? The differents is that Humans have freewill to choose the many directions in life. God is infinite, meaning that he can see all of the past-present-future. So in that way God created man (Adam), then God created (Eve). After that God commanded Eve and Adam to not to eat from the tree of life. Eve and Adam ate a apple from the tree, because of what Satan said to Eve. (There could be a conspiracy here, because I do not know if God warned Eve, or if God warned both Eve and Adam not to eat from the tree.) After all of that God booted Eve and Adam from the Kingdom. Since the time after Eve and Adam came to earth and the time before the flood, (and after) there was alot more "sin" from Humans. Ok. What does all of that have to do with the topic of the thread? Ohhk.

Time(age), Space, Matter and other dimensions could ever exist with out a source or a CREATOR.

Which part of life are we talking about. Before or after Eve and Adam was created? 1- The Universe? If so, then the Universe is madeup with the 'natural evolution', because of the (order and chaos theory), and that Humans do NOT know enough about what is all in/around of the Universe. 2-Humans...Humans spends all their waking life thinking and useing freewill to explore their thoughts on what to do and how to do it. God didn't personaly ome down here and pointed a shutgun as us and tell us Humans what to do, did he? No. Humans have freewill to do what ever we do in life. (I hope the other members doesn't think I am getting offtopic with my post, I do not mean to and I am trying my best to explain.) Ohhk. Here goes. As we Humans have discovered that life comes from life, and so on, as it does not matter how big or small something is madeup with as everything does have a meaning in life. As the only creatures (Humans) in this Universe does have the ability to understand and the greater understanding of the use from freewill, as no other being has ever thought in the same way as Humans have, could then God only allowed Humans to know and understand God, because of freewill. People can bitch all they like of saying 'God isn't real, because I have not seen him.' Maybe certain Humans along the way in life has lost the "understanding" from God, because of freewill. I hope this explains in somewhat of a detail thought. Thanks For Viewing And Replying.