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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:32 PM by forshow
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Shi%^$ has hit the fan, one reason...just ONE REASON the US and India to go all out war on pakistan.
india needs a new war, Pakistan are they only option.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:34 PM by masonwatcher
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Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by masonwatcher
I couldn't give a whatever about your visual status, infact it was a black geezer who once told me that the muslim asians of today are exactly at the
point of the blacks in the late seventies, early eighties. To quote him "they have a chip on their shoulder."
I think you have a chip on your shoulder probably because you are a white working class geezer that's taxed from pillar to post, put upon by a post
feminist politically correct society, and shat upon by a higher class of white authority. You got to blame someone and Asian lads will do nicely for
now.
Incidentally, an unknown black guy is not spokesman for all black dudes. It's not like we have secret national meetings to fix policy.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:38 PM by ufoorbhunter
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reply to post by masonwatcher
Being played with? Nah, there is a definate focus by muslim youth on two issues, Kashmir & Israel. They are obsessed with these things and it is
something for their confusion of being a minority culture within an ancient established culture to vent its anger on. People are being radicalised and
they are carrying out acts of terror here at home and abroad.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:42 PM by Solomons
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Is india willing to sacrifice a million people? two miilion? 10 million....lots of densly packed areas in india,throw some nukes into the mix and not
pretty.All based on the assumption this guy is telling the truth,when in fact,he could be intentionally giving them this information...Again this is
all rhetoric that wont reach full scale war but political posturing.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:42 PM by The Last Man on Earth
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I call shenanigans on this one. Smells like a plant to me.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:42 PM by DocMoreau
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Perhaps the statement regarding the Pakistani Navy is meant more as a 'code' or propaganda to fuel conflict between Pakistan and India.
en.wikipedia.org...
Pakistan Navy (Urdu: پاک بحریہ) better known as Pak Behria is the naval branch of the military of Pakistan. It is responsible for
Pakistan's 1,046 kilometer (650 mile) coastline along the Arabian Sea and the defense of important harbors. It is a modern and highly dependable
force that operates a wide range of ships ranging from cruisers to destroyers as well as submarines.[1] Navy day is celebrated on September 8 in
commemoration of the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965.
further in the article:
During the Indo-Pakistani War of 1965 the navy was involved in a conflict for the first time. Apart from carrying out a limited bombardment of the
coastal town of Dwaraka - codenamed Operation Dwarka, the navy's submarine PNS Ghazi was deployed against Indian Navy's western fleet at Bombay
(Mumbai) port [4].
There is a history there, that by invoking the Pakistani Navy, brings back feelings from both sides regarding the indo-pakistani wars of the past. I
am of the opinion that it was the Pakistani Intelligence services who actually provided these terrorists with training. I found a few articles on The
Independent's website that caused me to pause.
Pakistan's secret role in massacre
under scrutiny
As tension between Delhi and Islamabad mounts towards an incendiary level following the Mumbai massacre, the shadowy activities of Pakistan’s
intelligence service, ISI, has come under renewed critical spotlight.
Pakistan is expected to face huge pressure from the US and the West to take action to curb the organisation which has sponsored an array of Islamist
terrorists, including Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group being blamed for the attacks which led to 170 deaths.
However, Pakistan’s recently elected civilian government has very limited room for manoeuvre against this secret state within a state. Many of those
who are ministers now have had to deal with the ISI (Inter Services Intelligence) in the past to safeguard their careers, and the intelligence service
knows where the bodies are buried in the violent and murky political history of the country.
The agency also has a vast coffer, with revenues coming from an array of sources including a vast official budget and proceeds from the opium trade,
and is not likely to surrender its considerable political and economic clout without a fight.
Terrorist outlaws – or
a group with friends in high places?
The prime suspect for the attack on Mumbai, Lashkar-e-Toiba, is the biggest and most violent of the Islamist groups fighting against India for a
separate Kashmir. It has also, over the years, built up close links with al-Qa'ida and ISI, the Pakistani intelligence service.
It is Lashkar's policy of bombings and shootings within India as well as Kashmir that has brought Pakistan and India, two nuclear-armed powers, to
the brink of conflict in recent years. The link to the ISI, often described as a state-within-a-state in Pakistan, may again shift relations between
India and Pakistan to incendiary levels if evidence is uncovered that the intelligence organisation was involved in the attack.
Delhi has repeatedly accused Islamabad of actively colluding in the group's attacks and threatened retribution. The Pakistanis deny the charge and
point out that the organisation is banned in the country.
The Pakistani defence, analysts point out, is disingenuous. It is indeed the case that the group was officially outlawed by Pervez Musharraf under
American pressure in 2002 after a series of bombings in Delhi. However, Lashkar simply continued under the new name of Jama'at-ud-Da'wah. What
appears to be the case is that even the country's military regime had little control over a client organisation of the ISI, and the fundamentalists
in the armed forces hierarchy and the current civilian government is far more impotent to curb the militants that the Pakistani state had once had a
part in creating.
It is also interesting to note that the disputed area of Kashmir becomes a key part of this discussion, even though the terror attacks occurred in
Mumbai.
Andrew Buncombe: The
region at the heart of this deadly argument
Again the talk is of Kashmir, disputed, coveted and often fought over. Kashmir has remained a flashpoint between India and Pakistan since
Partition in 1947, when – amid fighting between the armies of India and the new state of Pakistan – the Hindu maharajah of the Muslim-majority
princely state opted for an alliance with Delhi. At the time, it was agreed that a referendum, overseen by the UN, would determine the future of the
province. The promised referendum, a vow made before the UN by India's first prime minister, Jawaharlal Nehru, has never been honoured. In 1965,
troops from the two countries again fought over the province.
Since the late 1980s, an estimated 70,000 people have been killed in Kashmir as militant Muslim groups battle for independence or integration with
Pakistan. India has boosted its forces in the region to make it one of the most heavily militarised areas in the world with one Indian soldier for
every 10 citizens. The security forces are routinely accused of abusing Muslims.
The biggest demonstrations in Kashmir for two decades came in the summer as up to 100,000 people took to the streets. The protests, triggered by a
dispute over a decision by the state to hand over land for a Hindu shrine, escalated into full-blooded demonstrations for autonomy. Police killed at
least 13 people after Muslim demonstrators ignored a curfew imposed after the murder of a high-profile separatist leader.
Looking at a map of the Kashmir region shows how volatile the region is, especially as India and China become larger, and their thirst for oil and
natural gas grows, Kashmir becomes the potential future crossroads of oil pipelines and armies.
I find this article from 2006 to be fairly telling
Promise of transborder gas pipeline
PIPELINE DREAMS: Union Minister for Petroleum and Natural Gas, Murli Deora (right), shaking hands with Pakistan's Oil Minister, Amanullah Khan Jadoon
(centre), as Pakistan High Commissioner to India, Aziz Ahmad Khan, looks on. A Pakistani delegation led by the Oil Minister was in New Delhi in
February for talks on a multi-billion dollar gas pipeline from Iran to India through Pakistan. — FILE PHOTO
NO OTHER issue has dominated news headlines in the last 20 months as much as energy security. The subject has figured prominently during the visits of
foreign dignitaries, (U.S. and French Presidents and Australian Prime-Minister) as well as during the visits of the Indian head of state to different
countries. Among the options, changing the energy mix to reduce reliance on a single source is being pursued vigorously.
One such option is natural gas. Incidentally, India does not have an equivalent gas reserve to match its growing need. Against its daily demand of 120
million standard cubic metres (mcm), the country imports over 25 per cent of its requirement. Projections indicate that the demand will rise to a
staggering 400 mcm a day by 2020. Thus, assured supply of gas becomes a sine qua non if the country has to achieve the ambitious projected annual
growth of 8-9 per cent.
And this article from 2007 also leads me to believe that we are in for much more that just terrorism in Mumbai in regard to this conflict.
Pakistan `Peace Pipeline' May Fail to Secure Finance
Feb. 19 (Bloomberg) -- Pakistan may fail to secure natural gas from Iran because banks are reluctant to finance a $7.4 billion pipeline,
intensifying the search for domestic deposits to avoid shortages within three years.
A decade after the ``Peace Pipeline'' from Iran to Pakistan and India was suggested, none of the three governments have committed any money to the
project, said Faraz Farooq, an energy analyst at JS Global Securities Ltd. in Karachi.
But most importantly, this article sent chills up my spine. Could Kissinger's comments on November 20 have prompted anything to do with the
attack?
Pipeline will be a natural thing to do, says Kissinger
Mumbai: The former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger on Thursday indicated his support for the proposed Iran-India gas pipeline which the
Bush administration had objected to.
Speaking on “American Foreign Policy After Elections,” organised by the Confederation of Indian Industry and Aspen Institute India here, Mr.
Kissinger, answering a query on the multi-billion project, initially said he had no knowledge about every problem in the world.
Later, however, he said, “the pipeline will be a natural thing to do.”
The timing sure is a bit strange.
DocMoreau
edit some grammar and formatting
[edit on 1/12/2008 by DocMoreau]
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 02:43 PM by ufoorbhunter
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reply to post by masonwatcher
Rubbish, the blacks are now integrated and British, in the eighties they were not, we saw Brixton, Toxteth, etc. The point he made was now the Muslim
Brits of Asian descent are going through the same today.
BTW lol you make presumptions that are all basically not correct!
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 03:10 PM by DocMoreau
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Just found this article that bolster's my previous points in my last post.
Al Qaida 'hijacked' the ISI plan.... that originally was set for Kashmir
Al-Qaeda 'hijack' led to Mumbai attack
MILAN - A plan by Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) that had been in the pipelines for several months - even though official policy
was to ditch it - saw what was to be a low-profile attack in Kashmir turn into the massive attacks on Mumbai last week.
The original plan was highjacked by the Laskar-e-Taiba (LET), a Pakistani militant group that generally focussed on the Kashmir struggle, and
al-Qaeda, resulting in the deaths of nearly 200 people in Mumbai as groups of militants sprayed bullets and hand grenades at hotels, restaurants and
train stations, as well as a Jewish community center.
The attack has sent shock waves across India and threatens to revive the intense periods of hostility the two countries have endured since their
independence from British India in 1947.
There is now the possibility that Pakistan will undergo another about-turn and rethink its support of the "war in terror"; until the end of 2001, it
supported the Taliban administration in Afghanistan. It could now back off from its restive tribal areas, leaving the Taliban a free hand to
consolidate their Afghan insurgency.
A US State Department official categorically mentioned that Pakistan's "smoking gun" could turn the US's relations with Pakistan sour. The one
militant captured - several were killed - is reported to have been a Pakistani trained by the LET.
And this article from www.globalsecurity.org... also seems to make the case for Kashmir being the cause
of the Mumbai attacks, and the potential battlefield to determine the future of the region.
The most likely scenario for conflict between India and Pakistan would stem from the continuing unrest in Kashmir. It is difficult to imagine how
India and Pakistan could settle this dispute in a mutually satisfactory manner. India's position is clear and transcends political debate. Any
arrangement that cedes portions of the state of Jammu and Kashmir (the only majority Muslim state in India) to Pakistan is not acceptable. Pakistan,
on the other hand, insists on the right to protect Muslims living in Kashmir; consequently, its support for Kashmiri militants continues.
Since 1990, the Kashmir insurgency, concentrated in the Muslim-majority state of Jammu and Kashmir, has gained momentum. By the mid-1990s, it was not
only the most serious flashpoint in the region but also among the most likely accelerants for a nuclear crisis anywhere on the globe. Thus, an
internally driven crisis evolved into a regional security threat that also provides a political rallying point, particularly among nationalist groups
who favor a more overt program of nuclear weapons acquisition.
Although the origins of the crisis are quintessentially indigenous, there is widespread agreement among both Indian and foreign observers that the
Inter-Services Intelligence Agency of Pakistan has actively aided and abetted some of the insurgent groups, most notably, the radical Islamic
Hezb-ul-Mujahideen. It has been the ISI’s practice to use and discard militant organizations in Kashmir. The Pak army first used Jammu and Kashmir
Liberation Front (JKLF) to start terrorist activities in Kashmir and then dropped it in favor of pro-Pakistan fundamentalist groups. Then many of
these groups were discarded and more and more Pakistani and Afghan terrorists inducted.
I am doubtful that the 'peace pipeline' will be going in any time soon, nor will it bring much peace.
DocMoreau
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 03:27 PM by masonwatcher
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reply to post by ufoorbhunter
Now that is a wholly separate subject matter. You were talking about Asian youths promising you serious acts of terror.
Israel? You don't have to be a Muslim to think that it is a poisonous slag heap which is doomed to disappear up its own backside. The Kashmir issue
is a product of imperial divide and rule tactics. Britain placed a Hindu maharaja as absolute ruler over a Muslim population. While Britain arranged
plebiscites or consulted the populations of the other parts of India during the lead up to independence, I did no such thing for Kashmir so the
maharaja threw in his lot with India. Ever since then the Kashmiris have been fighting for separation.
[edit on 033131p://pm3130 by masonwatcher]
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 03:30 PM by masonwatcher
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Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by masonwatcher
Rubbish, the blacks are now integrated and British, in the eighties they were not, we saw Brixton, Toxteth, etc. The point he made was now the Muslim
Brits of Asian descent are going through the same today.
BTW lol you make presumptions that are all basically not correct!
Assumption not presumptions. You have just confirmed my assumptions. Cheers mate 
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 03:38 PM by ufoorbhunter
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reply to post by masonwatcher
Glad I make you chuckle, sounds like you need it! But I speak the truth, there is an element in UK society that sees Israel and Kashmir as something
more than BBC. They are willing to do a Mumbai or 7/7 type massacre of terror and that's at the very least a chip on the shoulder.............
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 03:45 PM by groingrinder
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reply to post by SLAYER69
Read the story instead of replying to the post. They were also given plans to the hotel and escape routes via the rail system.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 03:48 PM by unnamedninja
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Yes Pakistsan trained those men to carry out terror attacks, because Pakistan needs as many allies as it can get, and provoking it's neighbour Into
armed conflict is just such a great idea right now. Especially if you can't hold your own in a fight against that neighbour, let alone all it's
powerful allies as well.
But hey, China Iran and Russia are looking so strong right now, (LOL) I guess Pakistan threw their hat into the ring, right?
My guess: Pakistan would love to be allied with India and her rich buddies, but because Pakistan's population is 97% Muslim, that is totally
impossible for them.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 04:01 PM by Gun Totin Gerbil
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Give him time , by next week he'll be saying Asif Zardari packed that backpack of his with grenades and cheese sandwiches.
line 2
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 04:23 PM by masonwatcher
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Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by masonwatcher
Glad I make you chuckle, sounds like you need it! But I speak the truth, there is an element in UK society that sees Israel and Kashmir as something
more than BBC. They are willing to do a Mumbai or 7/7 type massacre of terror and that's at the very least a chip on the shoulder.............
Wiki definition of 'a chip on the shoulder':
.... a meaning of somebody who has a self-righteous feeling of oppression or inferiority which they never miss an opportunity to flaunt. (This feeling
is sometimes called 'chippiness' or 'being chippy'.) .... It more implies trying to gain the upper hand through second-hand moral superiority.
I consider some one basing his opinion or argument on the basis of his presumption of another's emotional motivation rather than the substance of the
argument or issue either ill informed or arrogant. You do not live in someone else's shoes nor can you judge a collective emotional state in the
absence of any facts. You have repeatedly said two things over numerous posts. The first being that Asians have 'chips' on their shoulder and you
announce your personal anecdotes as if it has sole relevance.
I think that it is you that has a giant chip on his shoulders and sublimates this feeling on any ethnic minority you come across. Do yourself a favour
and look outside the hole you inhabit.
There is genuine anger and upset in this world and there are people causing deliberate mayhem. It doesn't matter who they are but your job is to deny
ignorance otherwise you are nothing more than a feeder!
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 04:33 PM by ufoorbhunter
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reply to post by masonwatcher
There is a segment of UK society that wishes to carry out acts of terror, they are muslim and have acted accordingly killing fellow British citizens.
Therefore I believe there's a possibility British people were involved in this Mumbai act of terror.
BTW I am amused at you labelling and indeed guessing at me being white............. some would consider you a raciologist in this assumption.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 04:46 PM by masonwatcher
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Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by masonwatcher
There is a segment of UK society that wishes to carry out acts of terror, they are muslim and have acted accordingly killing fellow British citizens.
Therefore I believe there's a possibility British people were involved in this Mumbai act of terror.
BTW I am amused at you labelling and indeed guessing at me being white............. some would consider you a raciologist in this assumption.
Equally there are large sections of the UK community that are carrying out acts of terror and harassment against fellow British citizen based on skin
colour. These malignant individuals commit horrendous acts of brutality, abuse and murder on a delay basis.
As for identifying you as white,,, well if it farts like a duck....why don't you look up 'deductive reasoning' before you cast stones.
Incidentally, what is a 'raciologist'?
[edit on 043131p://pm3132 by masonwatcher]
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 05:43 PM by kidney thief
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Here's what makes me suspicious..
I followed this nearly minue-by-minute once I had heard about the attacks, about 1800hrs EST on the first day. I kept my eye on twitter, google news,
the live feed from the IBN site, and the ridiculously long ATS thread that broke the story here.
Nearly every terrorist picture that became available to the media and that was shown on news sites was of this one guy, who ends up being the one
captured at the end of it all to relay the story of how it went down.
What kind of a coincidence is that, unless i missed a slew of photos of different gunmen? From the start once photos were available and released were
these images of this one gunman, burned into the memory of everyone following the story... and now he is the only one left, given a name and identity,
and conveniently giving up all the details of their attack?
did i miss something or am i right to be confused over this??
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 05:52 PM by mr-lizard
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Originally posted by deltaboy
Thats BS!!! The Pakistan's Navy Special Operations unit the Special Service Group Navy don't know how to train their troops in special operations.
They suck! The only way that a couple of gunmen can take on a city would have to training from the U.S. military or the CIA. Not by Pakistan's
special operations units.
That's a bit big headed.... So only the US have ever stormed a
city????..............................................................................................................................................
......................... 'Right'.
Hello. Earth to Deltaboy. The US are not the ONLY people on the planet.
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reply posted on 1-12-2008 @ 05:55 PM by mr-lizard
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Originally posted by masonwatcher
Originally posted by ufoorbhunter
reply to post by marg6043
I wouldn't be surprised at all if these terrorists are in some way connected to here in the UK. I've known plenty of muslims in my life, the older
generation are to be fair quite admired, all lovely people. The younger ones though are different and I've chatted to quite a few and after careful
investigation found some to be very politically motivated by world issues. They have a chip on their shoulder and this results in things like 7/7.
I am black and British and it is exactly what racists used to say about black youth. Usually it is the cocky contempt for bigots that confuses things.
No, actually he's quite right. Go see some of the no-go areas in certain parts of London or the midlands or the north west and you'll see he's very
right.
This isn't about colour or race, this is about political and religious attitude.... And yes, the blacks of britain did get a bad press, but the asian
youth are in some cases (and my Muslim friends agree) becoming fanatics.
This is the worrying thing.
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