Being a liberal on this board...

Yep, I admit it. I am a liberal. To me it isn't a dirty word. There is real compassion there once you get past the red tape that is present on both sides of the political spectrum. Granted, being one does include a bit of naivity, but it beats the alternative, IMO.

It is my personal belief that ultimately both paths will lead to same place, just by a different road. One is wrought with bitterness, cruelty, and miserly intents. While the other is generous and caring, to a degree. Granted, yes there will be people who abuse it, but there are great ideals in liberalism.

It will come down to just that for me, the ideal. To me, conservatives look at the world and see it how it is and then goes from there. Liberals, IMO, see the world for what it could be and goes from there.

Admittedly, liberals do not always get it right. There are things that I completely disagree with. A more laxed immigration policy is not a good plan. I do not like the taxing style they have. I believe in a flat tax. I do not like budget deficits for extra programs. I don't like budget deficits period. I don't like the idea of reparations. I don't like the white man being treated like a third rate citizen. Just for an example. Oh, and when I vote, I vote for what is best for our country...not just my party or my ideals.

With all that being said, I must admit that it is terribly tough being a liberal on this board. Now, now, conservatives, don't start patting yourselves on the back just yet. It isn't ya'll. I love politically sparring with you guys. TC, Seekerof, jsobecky, Phoenix, KrazyJethro and others do your slant justice. You can argue with both wit and logic, which is great and compels me to respond to your topics and points. However, many times I am left grasping my head when I read many of the liberal retorts on this board. For example, the lovely liberal driven post, "Is GWB gay?" Just the fact that this purely speculative and unsubstantiated topic exists shows my struggle with being "openly" liberal on this board.

But it is not just this topic. There are plenty of other things out there. I would love to hear of any closet liberals out there who feel the same way. Are there any others who find it hard to be a liberal on this board?

I see where you're coming from. I tend to be more liberally aligned too, though like you I don't agree with everything on that side. I consider myself a political mutt in a way. But yes, it seems that there's a lot of unsubstantiated Bush bashing and stuff like that coming from the liberals. But theres also a lot of foolish Kerry/democrat bashing coming from the conservatives. So I think it's kind of a double sided thing. There are a lot of liberals on this board who I see post very intelligent and well thought out posts and topics. Many times I look up to these people.

There will always be jackasses in the world, no matter if they're conservative/liberal, black/white, religious/athiest, etc. We just have to hope that the people who are like that don't sully the reputation that the intelligent and thoughtful people are trying to represent.

Hopefully, now that I've said all that, I sounded kind of intelligent in my response. I'm in the middle of class now and typing this stuff fast as it comes to mind, so maybe I'll come back later after class and try to make it clearer.

OxmanK

You should not feel ashamed of being a liberal. You were correct in saying that both libs and conservatives will reach the same goals but by different roads. I am what is considered a conservative, but have some very liberal ideas. Gay marriage, for example. I have not heard one single, convincing argument yet as to why same sex marriages should not be legalized. To promote debate, I have advocated MANDATORY marriage for those who make a baby....no good response from the right on that one!

Keep the liberal points of view coming...we need balance in our viewpoints if for no other reason that to keep ourselves honest.

john

I think "Liberal" and "Neo-Conservatives" are the polar opposites, the far extremes, the worst cases. "Progressives" & "Conservatives" make up America....but even then, you have most people being fiscally conservative & socially progressive.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Gay marriage, for example. I have not heard one single, convincing argument yet as to why same sex marriages should not be legalized. To promote debate, I have advocated MANDATORY marriage for those who make a baby....no good response from the right on that one!

Before I go off topic....a couple of questions for you:

1. Are you married?
2. Do you have children?

If you answer YES to either of these questions, start a new thread........I'll be there.

Ox, I see where your heart is, and I like it. However, I do not agree with your assessment of how the two sides see and operate.

We've had 40 to 60 years of liberal meddling, depending on whether you want to see the handout programs starting mainly in the 40's or the 60's. Eitehr way, we see that they have failed to extinguish poverty but have succeeded in creating genrations that have been born into the welfare system and have died in its grasp, never aspiring to rise above it. It has stripped people of their of their self-respect and self-esteem and created a base of operations for crime and desparity, while the lion's share of the money it takes from the tax-paying citizenry goes to the bureaucracy that is necessary to run it. That is not what you want, and that is not the conservative vision. The conservative vision is to set free, not to enslave.

As far as social progressiveness is concerned, there is nothing progressive about destroying a culture and society of a once strong nation. If social progressiveness is what you want, BT, take comfort in the idea that the social reengineering that has been ocurring in this country for decades now has taken its toll. Society is having problems determining right from wrong, good from bad. The "progressive" movement has almost accomplished its mission.

Ox, yolu're needed here to fight the good fight. Don't believe that bull# that TC vomits everytime he posts. Like giving taxpayer money to the poor, the needy ,a nd the homeless is a bad thing. I guess its better give to defense contractors for more cool sci-fi weapons that kill than to help put some food on the table for someone who is in need, which is where the lion's share of our taxpayer money goes.

BTW, we'll NEVER eliminate poverty b/c of the way our society is structured. Its capitalist---someone's always gotta be on the bottom to support the top. But, that doesn't mean ya gotta be heartless like mostly all repugnants.

In any event, I'm still here. I was here ALONE battling these repugnant scum before you got here. So, its always good to have a comrade-in-arms.

TC, like I said earlier I love the ideal. The things that were done, I don't think, had the intention of subjugating the people of this country. The welfare system, on paper...in ideals, is a great system intended to help those people who need an extra hand. But, it has been said many times that intention is the mother of all fark ups. However, I don't think crime was influenced by this. It happened with Civil Rights movement in the 60's. During that time, they promoted crime as being alright in some groups.

Also, there is a bit of naivity there. I don't think anyone thought that this type of system would do this. However, this is no healthy way to just stop it. I personally disagree with the welfare abuses, but we cannot end it quickly, because of the legitimate people who actually benefit from it. I have many friends whose family has benifitted greatly from having government assistance. They aren't slaves to the system and are now contributing members of this country. Some days, I think it is almost worth having those abuse the system as long as there are those honest people who just need a little hand in tought times in the system.

As bad as some can make it seem, there is no easy bow out of welfare. It will take years to phase it out.

What or who determines right from wrong? It is society that does it. If society changes, then morals change. Just because something that is against the Bible or against your long time thought process does not make it bad, wrong, or evil. Donating organs is a prime example of it. Hell, you can even go into the Bible to find it. (Not word for word, but you can make the connection) Or how about divorce? (we could debate it) Or women not being "enslaved" to her husband? Slavery? Civil rights? It is an evolution of thought process. I'm sure whenever abolishing slavery was brought up, it was thought of as the "end of society" issue. But anyway...

Colonel: Are you advocating Communism? That would be a damn bold assertion.

Ox, I see what you are saying about the inane threads on the board. I just ignore them and shake my head. As to my politcical and social bent , I sure as hell am not conservative. I enjoy debating the other side, do it pretty much every day. The problem that i perceive is that being "liberal" we can see the other side, just don't agree with it. I find that with some conservatives you could point to a cloudless sky, and if they don't believe that it is blue there is NO way they will see differently.

Ox, I do believe the system was designed to do just what it has done. Destroy, subjugate, enslave and divide. People haven't changed in thousands of years, the end result was undestood, and even counted on. Especially starting with LBJ's crap, no doubt.

No, there would be no easy way to reverse the damage done by the system, if it could even be done at all. I agree. The politics involved would not allow it to happen. Vomitous scum like Colonel will insure of that. It is a Democratic selling point for many poor people in the system's trap, as well as misguided people that fall for the lies. It'll never go away, even if the government decided it'd try and set things right. But that won't happen, as I think it is important on the conspiratorial level.

Who says what is right and wrong? That is very simple, God. Our founding fathers made that clear as a bell. Our rights are given to us by God, protected by our documentation, not created by men and protected by the whims of men.

Personally, welfare systems can work for the betterment of us. However, we were not ready for it when it was implemented. The things that we were going on in those days only bred pure dependence. Minorities and women had started getting a foothold in this country and some took the easy way. I think welfare is the victim of poor timing.

I cannot believe in this day of enlightenment that religion should play as important role as what you are describing. "God" has played a huge role in enslaving the population and making people do what they normally would not want. Don't believe me? Look at the inquisition or Manifest Destiny or the Crusades etc. How about those people who justify their actions through obscure passages in the good book? Slavery, anti-homosexuality, birth control, etc. The fact is, religion has played probably a large role in keeping people enslaved than any social programming could even think of doing. Thank God that people have seen through this and continued to progress in thinking. Religion has stymied education, social evolution, and logical thinking. After all, look at the witch hunts. Or look at what happened to Galileo or Bruno.

And besides, I don't see where they made it clear as a bell. In fact, I see a large portion of our founders who were atheist or, at most, agnostic.

Deist. TJ, who most coservatives wrap themselves up in, was a diest. TC will argue that he wasn't, but as someone who has read alot of TJ's stuff, I don't see him wrapping himself in the religous overtones conservatives want the world to believe. Did he stand fro morality and against the tyranny of the few over the many? Yep. But this does not make him a dyed in the wool conservative nor a religious person.
Is it folly to think (like a lot of Liberals do) that religion played no part in our countries founding? Yep, but again it was not the sole basis of the founding.
John Winthrope called the new world the "city on the hill," ...once and now all religious conservatives say "we are a christian nation." Not so.
Alot of our conservative friends claim they want the government's paws out of their gun closets and their wallets "we want small government and we want it now!" They want the governement to keep out of their lives BUT they want the government to legislate morality.... How can you have it both ways? "Stay out of MY PERSONAL life... but he's 'different' so you can control him" This mixing of libertarianism and social conservatism is impossible. The rise of the anti-New Deal conservatives in the '40s turned to framing everything into anti-communist terminolgy in the '50s, then shifted focus in the mid '60s to "big government", then in the late '60s to the immorality of the New Left and the counterculture and student/civil rights movements. The conservatives just need a fight, they will find something to pick on and rail against. One theroy is that the right wing is reacting to the pull of modernity, that it is, ultimately, fear of change and a sense that the country has lost it's traditions that makes them react they way they do to change. That is where I see the modern conservative movement breaking down, you simply can't have the whole ideological pie.

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think the liberals are much better, they have grand ideas but royally screw up the implementation of those ideas.

I prefer the middle road. Take a little from both sides, as they both have some issues correct.

Ox, don't listen to TC. They talk a big game but they are the lowest of the low. They are permitted to do things you and I aren't. Its ok, they're republicans. They can violate the law, kill people, eat their own, invade countries, commit war profiteering, take drugs from a backlot at Dennys and serve NO TIME. It just never stops.

They can do this becuase they are corrupt and filthy while we have a moral compass that tells us right from wrong. They are beneath contempt. I would not be far off fromt he truth when I say they are baby killers

[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Colonel]

Well, Republicans are very much in the minority on this board and in the world, but they are indeed the most vocal. I'm sure alot of people get the impression there are alot of Republicans on this board because they cannot discuss, they SHOUT!!! They spread their lies, mis-interpretations, and stereotypical BS propaganda throughout this entire board.

In fact they do this so much I have seen many members even doubt themselves and their beliefs, the Reps shout so much they feel they are in the minority and begin to think that what they believe may be wrong. Nonsense!

Let them keep shouting, but remember this...They are in Power right? They know they are right, right? Then how come they feel the need to to shout and condemn everything they believe is BS? Why don't they just ignore it if it's such BS? They are in power yet they are scared to death of not being listened to, and do you know why?
Because they are very much in the minority and they know it. Most people are more liberal minded than they realise, even some Republicans. Once these people wake up to this fact they'll smell the s**t Republicans are shovelling (and Democrats, they're all the same. Time for a new party everyone) and desert their arses.

The ranting and raving of Republicans are the last desperate act of a breed of idiots who know they are dying out, enjoy whilst they take their last panic breaths, I know I am.

Whilst we're at it it's time to rebuild the Democrat party, they're a shower of bastards as well.

Oh and Colonel, I hear they also drink piss from moose cocks, but that's getting into Republicans private affairs and I don't think it's right to go there.

John: You're right. These repugnants have polluted, corrupted,and debased our political form of government and they should all hang their head in shame if they have any. They are a virus that has learned how to mutate. They aren't even worth the powder to blow 'em to Hell.



[Edited on 31-3-2004 by Colonel]

Man, I get sick of this #.

TC spews on the libs

Many others spew on the Reps.

Where's the #ing solution.

I know where it is. It's in the bottom of a can of American Whoopass for all the complacent asshats that reside in the good ol' USA.

I don't care who is corrupt, bangs kids in the ass, snorts coke, because the lazy SANCTIONED IT and allowed the proliferation of the "lesser of two evils"

Now is the time to take back this country from ALL fronts.

Republicans-- SUCK

Democrats-- SUCK

and that is a serious situation.

There is no time for third party antiics, KJ. We have a demon is the White HOuse that nedds to be gone. Get Kerry in there and we can work from there.

I'm not advocating third party bull#.

Libertarians are three quarters to nuts.

Bush sucks a big one.

Kerry sucks a big one too.

What are we supposed to do? Trade one bastard for another?

How do we even know WHAT the hell Kerry is going to do as president.

Well, I guess our only option is MR. Snuflelupigus, but he's way behind in the polls.

Libertarians are three quarters to nuts.

I am hurt